Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

Theres' the facts woofy.

[ConnO'var]

..... not bad considering Rafa has spent over £100million on strengthening the team.

As did Houllier mate....

I guess it's a question how you slice the data available. You could intepret it one way or another I suppose...

For me, at the end of the day is the state of the squad we have now vs at the end of Houllier's 3rd year (before his heart attack) and by god, it's a close call!

If you consider the squad at the end of Houlleir's reign, the purely and simply, it's no contest..... Rafa edges it by half a length at least.

To be fair, until he lost the plot, GH was doing really well. Let's hope that Rafa doesn't follow the path GH went down in his last 2 years.

[account deleted by request]

..... not bad considering Rafa has spent over £100million on strengthening the team.

As did Houllier mate....

I guess it's a question how you slice the data available. You could intepret it one way or another I suppose...

For me, at the end of the day is the state of the squad we have now vs at the end of Houllier's 3rd year (before his heart attack) and by god, it's a close call!

If you consider the squad at the end of Houlleir's reign, the purely and simply, it's no contest..... Rafa edges it by half a length at least.

To be fair, until he lost the plot, GH was doing really well. Let's hope that Rafa doesn't follow the path GH went down in his last 2 years.

Which is pretty much were we came in at the start of the thread mate 

But take Houuliers team at the end of his reign, and to be honest there isn't much to choose between them and theteam now. (squad wise there is a huge improvement.)

[ConnO'var]

..... not bad considering Rafa has spent over £100million on strengthening the team.

As did Houllier mate....

I guess it's a question how you slice the data available. You could intepret it one way or another I suppose...

For me, at the end of the day is the state of the squad we have now vs at the end of Houllier's 3rd year (before his heart attack) and by god, it's a close call!

If you consider the squad at the end of Houlleir's reign, the purely and simply, it's no contest..... Rafa edges it by half a length at least.

To be fair, until he lost the plot, GH was doing really well. Let's hope that Rafa doesn't follow the path GH went down in his last 2 years.

Which is pretty much were we came in at the start of the thread mate 

But take Houuliers team at the end of his reign, and to be honest there isn't much to choose between them and theteam now. (squad wise there is a huge improvement.)

THAT, is very true.

We deffo have a much better squad now, but better 1st team? Too close to call.... My quick pick... off the top of me head.

                    Reina

Finnan       Carra     Hyypia    Arbeloa

Pennant   Gerrard  Mascherano  Kewell

               Torres  Crouch

Sh!t.... our 2nd striker sucked then as it sucks now....

[account deleted by request]

   Dudek

Finnan  Carra  Hyypia  Riise

Diouf    Gerrard   Hamann  Kewell

           Owen   Heskey

The thing is to get a squad of say 14/16 top players necessary for a pick your best team manager is a lot cheaper than getting a squad of 22 top players that you need with a rotation is best manager.

I wasn't sure what I should do about Cisse so I just left him out.

[ConnO'var]

The thing is to get a squad of say 14/16 top players necessary for a pick your best team manager is a lot cheaper than getting a squad of 22 top players that you need with a rotation is best manager.

Sorry mate... you lost me there.... Care to elaborate?

[LFC2007]

As far as I'm concerned, we have made reasonable progress under Rafa since his appointment, given the circumstances we found ourselves in on his arrival and the climate within which we now have to operate.

Season for season:

First season: Rafa - wins the european cup after 21 years without it, fifth in the league, and reaches the league cup final.

Houllier: Comes Fourth.

Rafa wins

Second season: Rafa - Achieves a premiership points record, wins the FA cup - Third in the league.

Houllier: The treble and third in the league.

Houllier wins

Third season: Rafa - reaches another UCL final, unfortunate to lose. Comes third in the league.

Houllier: 2nd in the league.

Rafa wins


In the context of increased foreign ownership, specifically Abramovich's arrival, whilst only being able to compete on a level playing field financially with our main rivals since the arrival of Hicks and Gillett in February of this year, I'd say Rafa has done enough to suggest we've made reasonable progress since his arrival.

I genuinely believe that had we persisted with Houllier, we'd have struggled to stay in the top four.

In terms of player purchases, Houllier IMHO, signed more turkeys than Rafa has to date. Rafa's turkeys have invariably had talent, but have not been abe to adapt to English football. They also, generally, held their value and as such didn't represent as big a cock cup. Houllier on the other hand signed too many turkeys who didn't hold their value, and were simply utter sh!te. It's also worth bearing in mind that Houllier had the luxury of having Owen and Fowler at his disposal, in their prime. Owen chose to leave, and when Fowler returned, he wasn't anything like the player he was under Houllier. I thik we'd have faired significantly better in the league under Rafa had he been fortunate enough to have either player available, in their prime. I view this as a key point.

[Bad Bob]

Houllier didn't take over in the summer of 1998 Bob so unfortunately your list is meaningless, sorry mate . If you call it 3 years YOU WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE  A SUPERCUP AND A CHARITY SHIELD MATE

From .tv:

GERARD HOULLIER OBE
Former Clubs as Staff : Le Touquet, Arras, Noeux-les-Mines, Lens, Paris St Germain

Date of Birth : 03/10/1947
Birthplace : Therouanne
Joined : 1998

PROFILE
Though born in Therouanne, France, Gerard Houllier OBE has a long history of supporting Liverpool. It started in September 1969, when he was teaching at Alsop school in Walton. He stood on the Kop and watched the Reds defeat Dundalk 10-0.

In July 1998, Houllier returned to the city when he was appointed joint manager of the Reds alongside Roy Evans.

Gerard began his managerial career in 1973 as player-coach with Le Touquet. Spells at Arras and Noeux Les Mines followed before he managed Lens for three years and then guided Paris St.Germain to the French title in 1986.

Gerard then became Technical Director and assistant to the French national team, before becoming National Coach himself until 1994. He also coached the French team who won the European Under-18 Championship in 1996, and took the U-20s to the quarter-finals of the World Championships the following year. He also played an instrumental role in France winning the World Cup in 1998.

His managerial talents were much sought after during the summer of 1998 and Liverpool had to move swiftly to secure his services. At first Houllier was joint manager with Roy Evans but when that didn't work, Evans left the club in November 1998.

Houllier assumed sole control and in the summer of 1999 he launched an extensive programme of team rebuilding.

Success followed and in February 2001 he guided the Reds to a first trophy in six years, his first as the Reds won the Worthington Cup. He followed that by leading the Reds to the historic treble and five trophies in 2001, including the FA Cup, UEFA Cup, UEFA Super Cup and Charity Shield.

He had major heart surgery in October 2001 but returned to managerial duties in March 2002 against Roma at Anfield, as the team finished second in the Barclays Premiership in 2001/02 and reached the quarter-final of the Champions League.

Houllier led the team to another Worthington Cup success before he was awarded the prestigious OBE in 2003.

The folllowing season he guided the Reds to Champions League qualification but saw his six-year tenure as Anfield chief curtailed on 24 May 2004.

------
Saint, for the sake of the argument about the cups, let's forget that first season of Houllier's and add the 2001/2002 season.  That would bring, Houllier's Supercup and Charity Shield into the mix.  As Rafa won both of those as well and as they are both somewhat tin-pot cups, we're left with weighing up a CL win and a FA Cup win (Rafa) against the UEFA/FA/League Cup treble (Houllier).  You know what, I still think Rafa's achievements in the cups are more impressive and that's before I factor in reaching another CL final, which I still value very, very highly.  Feel free to disagree but that's my opinion on the cup comparison.

[ConnO'var]

Third season: Rafa - reaches another UCL final, unfortunate to lose. Comes third in the league.

Houllier: 2nd in the league.

Rafa wins

This.... I disagree with.... As Houllier also won the Super Cup in this season. For me, this is a tie

I genuinely believe that had we persisted with Houllier, we'd have struggled to stay in the top four.

This.... I strongly agree.

[LFC2007]

Third season: Rafa - reaches another UCL final, unfortunate to lose. Comes third in the league.

Houllier: 2nd in the league.

Rafa wins

This.... I disagree with.... As Houllier also won the Super Cup in this season. For me, this is a tie

The Super cup, I can't have that swaying it.

A UCL final and third in the league tips it hands down for me in favour of Rafa.

[ConnO'var]

Third season: Rafa - reaches another UCL final, unfortunate to lose. Comes third in the league.

Houllier: 2nd in the league.

Rafa wins

This.... I disagree with.... As Houllier also won the Super Cup in this season. For me, this is a tie

The Super cup, I can't have that swaying it.

A UCL final and third in the league tips it hands down for me in favour of Rafa.

For me...

2nd in the league with only 7 points differential between the eventual champions and actually winning a cup instead of being in a cup final (albeit the Champions league final no less)... is enough to call it a tie....



Horses for courses I guess.

************

Well lads, thanks for the interesting discussion but I've got to go.... my flights boarding at Schipol in 10 minutes and I got to run..... 3 weeks on the road and I'm feckin' knackered and I miss my wife!

See ya in a couple of days, boys!

Cheers...

Conn

[account deleted by request]

Houllier didn't take over in the summer of 1998 Bob so unfortunately your list is meaningless, sorry mate . If you call it 3 years YOU WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE  A SUPERCUP AND A CHARITY SHIELD MATE

From .tv:

GERARD HOULLIER OBE
Former Clubs as Staff : Le Touquet, Arras, Noeux-les-Mines, Lens, Paris St Germain

Date of Birth : 03/10/1947
Birthplace : Therouanne
Joined : 1998

PROFILE
Though born in Therouanne, France, Gerard Houllier OBE has a long history of supporting Liverpool. It started in September 1969, when he was teaching at Alsop school in Walton. He stood on the Kop and watched the Reds defeat Dundalk 10-0.

In July 1998, Houllier returned to the city when he was appointed joint manager of the Reds alongside Roy Evans.

Gerard began his managerial career in 1973 as player-coach with Le Touquet. Spells at Arras and Noeux Les Mines followed before he managed Lens for three years and then guided Paris St.Germain to the French title in 1986.

Gerard then became Technical Director and assistant to the French national team, before becoming National Coach himself until 1994. He also coached the French team who won the European Under-18 Championship in 1996, and took the U-20s to the quarter-finals of the World Championships the following year. He also played an instrumental role in France winning the World Cup in 1998.

His managerial talents were much sought after during the summer of 1998 and Liverpool had to move swiftly to secure his services. At first Houllier was joint manager with Roy Evans but when that didn't work, Evans left the club in November 1998.

Houllier assumed sole control and in the summer of 1999 he launched an extensive programme of team rebuilding.

Success followed and in February 2001 he guided the Reds to a first trophy in six years, his first as the Reds won the Worthington Cup. He followed that by leading the Reds to the historic treble and five trophies in 2001, including the FA Cup, UEFA Cup, UEFA Super Cup and Charity Shield.

He had major heart surgery in October 2001 but returned to managerial duties in March 2002 against Roma at Anfield, as the team finished second in the Barclays Premiership in 2001/02 and reached the quarter-final of the Champions League.

Houllier led the team to another Worthington Cup success before he was awarded the prestigious OBE in 2003.

The folllowing season he guided the Reds to Champions League qualification but saw his six-year tenure as Anfield chief curtailed on 24 May 2004.

------
Saint, for the sake of the argument about the cups, let's forget that first season of Houllier's and add the 2001/2002 season.  That would bring, Houllier's Supercup and Charity Shield into the mix.  As Rafa won both of those as well and as they are both somewhat tin-pot cups, we're left with weighing up a CL win and a FA Cup win (Rafa) against the UEFA/FA/League Cup treble (Houllier).  You know what, I still think Rafa's achievements in the cups are more impressive and that's before I factor in reaching another CL final, which I still value very, very highly.  Feel free to disagree but that's my opinion on the cup comparison.

I wasn't really arguing about the cups Bob, I was just suggesting that to win 3 cups in one season and to go unbeaten in any cup all season ,was perhaps as great an achievment as winning the CL, but without the obvious prestige that you get for winning the CL.

HOULLIER

Birthdate:  03.09.1947
Birthplace: Lille, France
Other clubs as manager: Noeux Les Mines, Lens, Paris St. Germain, France Football Federation, Lyon
Arrived from: France Football Fed.
Signed for LFC:  12.11.1998
First game in charge: 14.11.1998
Contract expiry: 24.05.2004
LFC league games as manager: 216
Total LFC games as manager: 307
Honours: F.A. cup winners 2001
League cup winners 2001, 2003
UEFA cup winners 2001

[woof woof !]

Still wondering where all these KEY signings are that Houllier made that are still playing for us.

If you named Liverpools strongest team how many would be Houllier players :- Finnan, Carra, Riise (arguably) Gerrard, and Kewell. Agger would be chosen ahead of Hyypia now but is still not as good as the Hyypia of 2 or 3 years ago.

Thats half a team, not bad considering Rafa has spent over £100million on strengthening the team.

Rafael Benítez bought 45 players for £126,296,000
Gerard Houllier bought 40 players for £125,400,000

People keep throwing Gerrard and Carragher into the mix as KEY SIGNINGS. Houllier didn't sign them , they came through the ranks.

That leaves us with Finnan and Riise, admittedly solid(most of the time) but hardly KEY and Hyypia deffo a key signing.


Christ sake, if Houllier was so f'ucking wonderful and taking us in the right direction how come we got rid of him ? . IMO he spent millions on average talent which thankfully we finally got rid of. Rafa may drive me nuts but imo we're in far better hands and in significantly better shape than we were the day Houllier finally f'ucked off.

[LFC2007]

Third season: Rafa - reaches another UCL final, unfortunate to lose. Comes third in the league.

Houllier: 2nd in the league.

Rafa wins

This.... I disagree with.... As Houllier also won the Super Cup in this season. For me, this is a tie

The Super cup, I can't have that swaying it.

A UCL final and third in the league tips it hands down for me in favour of Rafa.

For me...

2nd in the league with only 7 points differential between the eventual champions and actually winning a cup instead of being in a cup final (albeit the Champions league final no less)... is enough to call it a tie....

Yes, but that's like saying, winning the LDV vans trophy constitutes a greater achievement than reaching the FA cup final.

[account deleted by request]

The thing is to get a squad of say 14/16 top players necessary for a pick your best team manager is a lot cheaper than getting a squad of 22 top players that you need with a rotation is best manager.

Sorry mate... you lost me there.... Care to elaborate?

If you have a manager that picks his best team, he will buy 11 top class players and maybe 3-5 more top class players to cope with injuries, loss of form etc.

If you have a manager that rotates the team unless he is willing to field vastly inferior players he needs 11 top class players + 11 more top class players to rotate with. ie Alonso and Mascherano as opposed to Gerrard and Zenden.