Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

Over to you Bobby 

Thanks, Bamaga!

Rafa has won the major trophy of Europeasn football. Houllier won the minors, but in numbers and so far has brought us closer tio challenging the league, which is the most important thing here.

We're still talking the first three years of each manager right?  And, we do acknowledge that Houllier took over in the summer of 1998 right--even if it was alongside Evans until November?  If so, and in terms of cups:

Rafa: 1 Champions League, 1 Supercup, 1 FA Cup, (1 Charity Shield as well but I won't bother with that one)

Houllier: 1 UEFA Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup

Pretty even in terms of raw numbers but to me the numbers don't even begin to tell the story.  IMHO, winning the champions trumps everything else and the fact that Rafa added the FA Cup the next year cements it--he's been more successful in cup competitions in the first three years than Houllier.

Now, over to the league.  In Houllier's first three years we finished 7th (25 points back), 4th (24 points back) and 3rd (11 points back).  In Rafa's time, we've finished 5th (37 points back), 3rd (9 points back) and 3rd (21 points back).  In my book those numbers are pretty comparable and, since Shanks taught us that only winning matters anyway, quibbling over a few points here or there probably doesn't make sense.

Saint does have a point about the results against the top clubs but Rafa has made us much harder to beat at Anfield than Houllier and has a better winning percentage.  But, we could go round and round all day (night for you) and still not agree.

My point is, there is no clear cut evidence that says to me that Houllier had a better first three years in charge of the club than Rafa.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  Just as well, too, because, as Saint's said, it's really not the point of the thread anyway.  As I've already said in this thread, irrespective of how favourably, IMHO, his record compares to Houllier's at the same stage, there is no question in my mind that the rate of progress under Rafa has slowed and that's a source of concern given the fact that our top competitors have not seemed to slacken their pace.

[woof woof !]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination. So that brings us back to my original question, Hyypia aside where are the KEY signings that Houllier made ? .

[account deleted by request]

Over to you Bobby 

Thanks, Bamaga!

Rafa has won the major trophy of Europeasn football. Houllier won the minors, but in numbers and so far has brought us closer tio challenging the league, which is the most important thing here.

We're still talking the first three years of each manager right?  And, we do acknowledge that Houllier took over in the summer of 1998 right--even if it was alongside Evans until November?  If so, and in terms of cups:

Rafa: 1 Champions League, 1 Supercup, 1 FA Cup, (1 Charity Shield as well but I won't bother with that one)

Houllier: 1 UEFA Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup

Pretty even in terms of raw numbers but to me the numbers don't even begin to tell the story.  IMHO, winning the champions trumps everything else and the fact that Rafa added the FA Cup the next year cements it--he's been more successful in cup competitions in the first three years than Houllier.

Now, over to the league.  In Houllier's first three years we finished 7th (25 points back), 4th (24 points back) and 3rd (11 points back).  In Rafa's time, we've finished 5th (37 points back), 3rd (9 points back) and 3rd (21 points back).  In my book those numbers are pretty comparable and, since Shanks taught us that only winning matters anyway, quibbling over a few points here or there probably doesn't make sense.

Saint does have a point about the results against the top clubs but Rafa has made us much harder to beat at Anfield than Houllier and has a better winning percentage.  But, we could go round and round all day (night for you) and still not agree.

My point is, there is no clear cut evidence that says to me that Houllier had a better first three years in charge of the club than Rafa.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  Just as well, too, because, as Saint's said, it's really not the point of the thread anyway.  As I've already said in this thread, irrespective of how favourably, IMHO, his record compares to Houllier's at the same stage, there is no question in my mind that the rate of progress under Rafa has slowed and that's a source of concern given the fact that our top competitors have not seemed to slacken their pace.

Houllier didn't take over in the summer of 1998 Bob so unfortunately your list is meaningless, sorry mate . If you call it 3 years YOU WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE  A SUPERCUP AND A CHARITY SHIELD MATE

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination.

Finnan along with Carragher has been our most consistant player for the last couple of years, to say he isn't key is nonesense. Couldn't agree more Riise though, he's past his sell by date.

[66-1112520797]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination.

credit where its due, Houllier deployed them into top flight football, and I'd say considering our options at rightg back, and the fact Finnan is one of the best in the Prem, then I'd say he is a key player.

Riise, you can have that. But still a good squad player.

[Sabre]

Bamaga, when I came to this forum and started to read the english press, I was fuming because they talked about the top three teams, and yanno what? they didn't include Liverpool.

The same bástards talk about top four now. That's the difference, the bastárds are respecting more the club than 4 years ago.

[66-1112520797]

Over to you Bobby 

Thanks, Bamaga!

Rafa has won the major trophy of Europeasn football. Houllier won the minors, but in numbers and so far has brought us closer tio challenging the league, which is the most important thing here.

We're still talking the first three years of each manager right?  And, we do acknowledge that Houllier took over in the summer of 1998 right--even if it was alongside Evans until November?  If so, and in terms of cups:

Rafa: 1 Champions League, 1 Supercup, 1 FA Cup, (1 Charity Shield as well but I won't bother with that one)

Houllier: 1 UEFA Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup

Pretty even in terms of raw numbers but to me the numbers don't even begin to tell the story.  IMHO, winning the champions trumps everything else and the fact that Rafa added the FA Cup the next year cements it--he's been more successful in cup competitions in the first three years than Houllier.

Now, over to the league.  In Houllier's first three years we finished 7th (25 points back), 4th (24 points back) and 3rd (11 points back).  In Rafa's time, we've finished 5th (37 points back), 3rd (9 points back) and 3rd (21 points back).  In my book those numbers are pretty comparable and, since Shanks taught us that only winning matters anyway, quibbling over a few points here or there probably doesn't make sense.

Saint does have a point about the results against the top clubs but Rafa has made us much harder to beat at Anfield than Houllier and has a better winning percentage.  But, we could go round and round all day (night for you) and still not agree.

My point is, there is no clear cut evidence that says to me that Houllier had a better first three years in charge of the club than Rafa.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  Just as well, too, because, as Saint's said, it's really not the point of the thread anyway.  As I've already said in this thread, irrespective of how favourably, IMHO, his record compares to Houllier's at the same stage, there is no question in my mind that the rate of progress under Rafa has slowed and that's a source of concern given the fact that our top competitors have not seemed to slacken their pace.

Houllier didn't take over in the summer of 1998 Bob so unfortunately your list is meaningless, sorry mate . If you call it 3 years YOU WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE  A SUPERCUP AND A CHARITY SHIELD MATE

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Over to you Bobby 

Thanks, Bamaga!

Rafa has won the major trophy of Europeasn football. Houllier won the minors, but in numbers and so far has brought us closer tio challenging the league, which is the most important thing here.

We're still talking the first three years of each manager right?  And, we do acknowledge that Houllier took over in the summer of 1998 right--even if it was alongside Evans until November?  If so, and in terms of cups:

Rafa: 1 Champions League, 1 Supercup, 1 FA Cup, (1 Charity Shield as well but I won't bother with that one)

Houllier: 1 UEFA Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup

Pretty even in terms of raw numbers but to me the numbers don't even begin to tell the story.  IMHO, winning the champions trumps everything else and the fact that Rafa added the FA Cup the next year cements it--he's been more successful in cup competitions in the first three years than Houllier.

Now, over to the league.  In Houllier's first three years we finished 7th (25 points back), 4th (24 points back) and 3rd (11 points back).  In Rafa's time, we've finished 5th (37 points back), 3rd (9 points back) and 3rd (21 points back).  In my book those numbers are pretty comparable and, since Shanks taught us that only winning matters anyway, quibbling over a few points here or there probably doesn't make sense.

Saint does have a point about the results against the top clubs but Rafa has made us much harder to beat at Anfield than Houllier and has a better winning percentage.  But, we could go round and round all day (night for you) and still not agree.

My point is, there is no clear cut evidence that says to me that Houllier had a better first three years in charge of the club than Rafa.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  Just as well, too, because, as Saint's said, it's really not the point of the thread anyway.  As I've already said in this thread, irrespective of how favourably, IMHO, his record compares to Houllier's at the same stage, there is no question in my mind that the rate of progress under Rafa has slowed and that's a source of concern given the fact that our top competitors have not seemed to slacken their pace.

Houllier also won the charity shield if we're going to start getting picky. I think in the last 18 months the only progress we've made is backwards. Benitez winning the euroepean cup in 2005 was a huge achievement and obviously showed we were moving in the right direction, the following year the FA Cup, but despite last years european cup final, we're going backwards. After the 1st two years under Benitez we should be now pushing for the title and after seeing us week in week out this season, we're not going to push for the title.

[account deleted by request]

Bamaga, when I came to this forum and started to read the english press, I was fuming because they talked about the top three teams, and yanno what? they didn't include Liverpool.

The same bástards talk about top four now. That's the difference, the bastárds are respecting more the club than 4 years ago.

I was hoping for a bit better arguement than the press said so, Sabre  The press also said that rotation is stupid and is costing us points, that Rafa has lost the plot. Should we believe that as well ? 

[66-1112520797]

Bamaga, when I came to this forum and started to read the english press, I was fuming because they talked about the top three teams, and yanno what? they didn't include Liverpool.

The same bástards talk about top four now. That's the difference, the bastárds are respecting more the club than 4 years ago.

I was hoping for a bit better arguement than the press said so, Sabre 

yeah dont worry about the press Sabre, you know above anyone else how much they love to speculate.   

[woof woof !]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination.

credit where its due, Houllier deployed them into top flight football, and I'd say considering our options at rightg back, and the fact Finnan is one of the best in the Prem, then I'd say he is a key player.

Riise, you can have that. But still a good squad player.

Seems to me more a case of lets give credit to Houllier for doing the obvious by promoting Carragher and Gerrard into the seniors, something ANY manager would have done.

Don't want to knock Finnan , a great right back but again I challenge the use of the word KEY when used to describe him . 

Still wondering where all these KEY signings are that Houllier made that are still playing for us.

[ConnO'var]

Houllier, got us 8 points behind the champions, the closest Benitez has been is 3 times that figure, what are we measuring progress on?

Sorry mate.... that's incorrect..

Rafa got us to within 9 points of the championship in his second season..... not the 21 points you suggest.

[account deleted by request]

Back to progress. Tactically Houllier, had a great plan "A" pick your best team, defend stoutly, and quick counter attacks. Unfortunately he never seemed to come up with a good plan "B".

Rafa's is a much more varied bag of tricks. PLAN "A" - Pick a team (not necessarily your best one) defend stoutly and quick counter attacks. PLAN "B" - Pick a team (not necessarily your best one) defend stoutly and hit long balls up to Crouch.

[66-1112520797]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination.

credit where its due, Houllier deployed them into top flight football, and I'd say considering our options at rightg back, and the fact Finnan is one of the best in the Prem, then I'd say he is a key player.

Riise, you can have that. But still a good squad player.

Seems to me more a case of lets give credit to Houllier for doing the obvious by promoting Carragher and Gerrard into the seniors, something ANY manager would have done.

Don't want to knock Finnan , a great right back but again I challenge the use of the word KEY when used to describe him . 

Still wondering where all these KEY signings are that Houllier made that are still playing for us.

Well up until a couple of years ago we had Hamman, Smicer, Baros, Finnan, Riise, Hyypia, Dudek and Cisse who ALL played their part in wininng the glorious CL . 

[account deleted by request]

Also lets not forget most of Houlliers good buys are still here at the club, and are key players, in the case of Hyypia were.

Genuinely I'm not being funny here but remind me (apart from an aging Sammi) who those KEY signings are ?

Already been listed mate but :- Finnan, Carr, Hyypia , Riise, Gerrard (not all bought but all Houllier players)

There you go woof.

Carragher and Gerrard can hardly be considered "signings" . Finnan and Riise may be good players but to describe them as "Key" is really stretching the imagination.

credit where its due, Houllier deployed them into top flight football, and I'd say considering our options at rightg back, and the fact Finnan is one of the best in the Prem, then I'd say he is a key player.

Riise, you can have that. But still a good squad player.

Seems to me more a case of lets give credit to Houllier for doing the obvious by promoting Carragher and Gerrard into the seniors, something ANY manager would have done.

Don't want to knock Finnan , a great right back but again I challenge the use of the word KEY when used to describe him . 

Still wondering where all these KEY signings are that Houllier made that are still playing for us.

If you named Liverpools strongest team how many would be Houllier players :- Finnan, Carra, Riise (arguably) Gerrard, and Kewell. Agger would be chosen ahead of Hyypia now but is still not as good as the Hyypia of 2 or 3 years ago.

Thats half a team, not bad considering Rafa has spent over £100million on strengthening the team.

Rafael Benítez bought 45 players for £126,296,000
Gerard Houllier bought 40 players for £125,400,000