Liverpool FC Forum

[Raoul]

I've nothing against rotation in essence, but I expected the sort of teamsheet we had today, next week instead.  I'm not surprised Gerrard was on the bench, I thought Sissoko and Alonso, with Pennant and Babel (I guess away, playing a team with 5 in the midfield, Benayoun instead of Babel was a good shout) on the flanks would do the job for us - but no Gerrard and no Torres was one to many 'no's IMHO.

However, I can't help asking myself:

                            Reina
Finnan           Carra         Agger         Arbeloa
Pennant        Alonso       Sissoko       Benayoun
                  Voronin       Crouch

Thats not a bad team, is it?  Shouldn't they be good enough?

Guess not - perhaps our strength in depth is a little more shallow than we like to think?

And wasn't Pennant anonymous!  Perhaps because a lot of our play came from the back straight to Crouch (sometimes with good effect).  It seems to me than when Crouch is on the field we lose the ability to pass short, and rely on the long ball far too much.

It's not a bad team at all, no. But the trouble with this team is the lack of ballance. Alonso sits deep and holds. He can't really create much from there, so it's down to Sissoko to run about like a headless maniac, while trying to find a killer ball (rare for him) to the front two (who were inept to say the least). Not only this, Alonso and Sissoko can't realy be relied upon for digging out goals when needed.

As you pointed out correctly, long balls were applied to Crouch, usually via Alonso sitting deep. Our wide men never got in the game, and so the supply to our front men was even more limited. The ballance was all wrong. I'm no manager. I'm not Rafa. But if you watch the match again, this is exactly what you'll see. Too many defensive players, and barely any width at all.

Yes, I think you are right that not as much attacking drive will come from that midfield pairing, but I felt a bigger problem was that we were too direct too often - I've nothing against a good long ball, but if we don't vary our attack...

None of our wide players did all that much today - FB's included.  Why?  Because we didn't use the flanks anywhere near as much as we could of.  When we did pass, we looked dangerous, when we hoofed it...

[Raoul]

However a front pairing of Crouch and Voronin is imo the least effective of our possible front two combinations.

Yep, I'll go along with that.

[nobybob]

LANDO am i missing something here mate surly the whole point of this forum is for people to express their opinions right or wrong. and IMO to change your opion or view is a sign of strength not weakness. you cannot change things for the better unless you recognise something was wrong in the first place and something was wrong in today's game. I think RAFA is great not perfect just great and if he realises that the rotation policy didn't work today admit it and do something about it , that would be 1 step closer to the perfect manager we all want. i criticize RAFA sometimes doesn't mean i dint luv the guy or that i am disloyal

[Lando_Griffin]

LANDO am i missing something here mate surly the whole point of this forum is for people to express their opinions right or wrong. and IMO to change your opion or view is a sign of strength not weakness. you cannot change things for the better unless you recognise something was wrong in the first place and something was wrong in today's game. I think RAFA is great not perfect just great and if he realises that the rotation policy didn't work today admit it and do something about it , that would be 1 step closer to the perfect manager we all want. i criticize RAFA sometimes doesn't mean i dint luv the guy or that i am disloyal

You can change your opinions all you want.

But I'm afraid that if it falls within the required parameters, it makes you fickle.

People always want to blame rotation, but what makes you think our "full strength" 11 would have won? (Let's not forget that most people didn't view Babel as 1st choice until he tw*tted that goal against Derby.)

What if we'd have played said stronger team and lost? Then what? Wrong tactics? Wrong personnel? Bad manager?

It could be that Rafa recognised that Gerrard, Torres , Mascher and Babel weren't up to starting the game. If they'd have played knackered, Rafa would have been roasted on here for not using his squad.

Some people. Never f*cking happy.

[AB's Red Army]

I agree with Lando's sentiments.

People seem to believe that Benitez rotates for the sake of rotating. That isn't the case at all.

Considering the in depth training analysis that the club have daily, [stats on their fitness levels and such] no one is better to judge whether or not a player should start than Benitez.

Does that mean that he can't mistake? No it doesn't but it also doesn't mean that two weeks ago he knows what he's doing and now he doesn't.

It can't be both ways. He either knows or he doesn't. Choose one or the other.

And people got carried away after the win over Derby.

''We're going to win the league''
''Nothing can stop us now''

When people suggested otherwise, those were labeled negative and their loyalties were questioned. But those people had a point [that would include me].

You do not win the league after four or five games. If he had a bad start to the season like we have had in recent years, most of us would have said ''don't look at the table, it's only four games''.

After ten games of the season you can get the idea of where the team may end up finishing. We've played five games and we have three fixtures coming up that we should get maximum points. [7 at the minimum].

It's a long season ahead, save your energy for other games. If people are this outraged due to a draw, then I can't imagine what will happen if we lose a couple of games.

Decide whether or not we will win the league or not. It can't be different from one week to another.

And that's what Lando is saying.

I'm quite tired of rotation being the scapegoat and people going on as if they are the experts.

How about the fact that some of the players out there who are regulars, didn't play well?

Two weeks ago it was '' we can win without Gerrard and the co'' and today we can't? It's one or the either. Decide and stick to that opinion if you don't want to be called fickle.

[And this is not aimed at anyone in specific, I'm speaking in general. Not just for the fans here but I'm seeing similar reactions elsewhere. ]

[nobybob]

yep maybe if we played our strongest 11 we could still have lost but then people like me would not have been able to blame the  rotation policy therefore the problem would have been narrowed down to tactics ect. its all ifs, buts and maybes because the team WAS dramatically changed so we cant rule out rotation as the problem. so tell me lando what do you think went wrong today ?? oh and by the way what are the required parameters,?

[europian-kings]

pompy are very hard to break down at home for any team.....ok arsenal are currently above us....but they still have pompy to play away and chelsea at home to possibly lose points. they got derby at home next though it would be great if derby some how did them

[nobybob]

red army who said he doesnt know what he is doing ?? i said he got it wrong this week and right 2 weeks ago so yes i can have it both ways im just saying he is human like u and me and makes mistakes . oh and maybe some of the players who are regulars played badly because new players came in for todays game thus changing the tactics which maybe did not suit them so yes i still say the rotation policy could be to blame

[AB's Red Army]

yep maybe if we played our strongest 11 we could still have lost but then people like me would not have been able to blame the  rotation policy therefore the problem would have been narrowed down to tactics ect. its all ifs, buts and maybes because the team WAS dramatically changed so we cant rule out rotation as the problem. so tell me lando what do you think went wrong today ?? oh and by the way what are the required parameters,?

What was wrong with today?

For one the passing was too slow. We only showed glimpses of what we have done in the past weeks once or twice in the game.

Benayoun and Pennant didn't stretch the defenders down the flanks enough, and the service to the centerforwards was poor in comparison to previous games.

Alonso did not boss the game like he can [and I don't like the partnership between him and Sissoko in general].

Crouch was poor. I don't want to see him play in the league again anytime soon.

Despite the fact that our performance wasn't great, we head 2 or 3 chances to win the game.

And had that happened the comments would had been ''great rotation by Rafa, resting players for midweek and still getting a win''.

It didn't happen, Voronin hit the crossbar and missed what should had been a tap in.

[AB's Red Army]

red army who said he doesnt know what he is doing ?? i said he got it wrong this week and right 2 weeks ago so yes i can have it both ways im just saying he is human like u and me and makes mistakes . oh and maybe some of the players who are regulars played badly because new players came in for todays game thus changing the tactics which maybe did not suit them so yes i still say the rotation policy could be to blame

New players came in? Apart from Voronin today, all of these players have played with one another before. They should know how to play with one another by now. That's far too simplistic to think of it that way.

If they can't learn how to play with their team-mates after one,two or three seasons [and training sessions] then they never will.

The execution of the tactics was bad. That doesn't mean that the tactics that Rafa set out to the team were bad to begin with.

Doesn't matter what tactics you have if the team doesn't replicate that on the pitch. Which they didn't, although we had chances to sneak it once or twice.

[nobybob]

sorry by NEW i meant the players rotated into a good winning team, to convert it into average drawning one as you well know

[Red Dotty]

OMG people we got a point today away to a well organised team.
This has been a great start and compared to the last few seasons this is a dream, we are sitting second unbeaten, Torres and the other signing looking like bringing real quality and still some people get a hardon when we drop points

Even Hansen thinks we have a chance

Things are good we are good and that is that,

fecking enjoy the season as it's gonna be a cracker

IN RAFFA I TRUST

nuff said

[The Grudge]

So if a supporter decides that Sissoko is great at the start of the season if say he was playing well!Regardless of his future performances he has to stick with that opinion??

Say Sissoko stupidly gave away a penalty in a crucial game then commits a foul for a second yellow and gets sent off changing the game and we loose.Say the next game he plays sh.it and gets dropped...can a supporter not change his opinion of that player based on current facts and form?

Of course he can...Peoples opinions can change as often as players form does,in fact and not surprisingly its players form that influence our veiws on the individual.

People who support LFC have every right to sign Raffas praises or any player when they get it right and do well...We have just as much every right to point out and criticise when a player has a bad day and looks unfit of the shirt.

Its simple really when our team play great we applaud them ....when they dont play so great we still applaud but as supporters criticise when its due...Today was a bad day and if some posters feel as i do that the manager got it wrong they are entitled to say it!!

It does not mean that if we beat Birmingham next week 5-0 we have to say we are cr@p because we were cr@p today does it?

[account deleted by request]

We can win the league but only if Rafa stops making mistakes like he made today. I have no worries about rotation, but I have worries about him picking a team that has no balance, no creativity and no pace. Alonso, Sissoko, Pennant, Benayoun are unlikey to be rattling goals in away from home. Alonso has probably scored half the goals he will get this season against Derby, and Sissoko has already scored his for this season.  Crouch and Veronin were never likely to be the ideal combo up front, and always looked as if they would struggle against 2 strong CB'S like Distin and Campbell.

This game has all the hallmarks of Sheff U away last season, with Rafa seemingly more worried about CL qualification than our league challenge.

No, a point against Pompey is not the end of the world, it just feels like it    3 points today and with a nice run of winnable games to come and we would have been sitting pretty...... Top of the league, games in hand and looking good. A draw .......probably down to 3rd or 4th a run of must win games now and the pressure is back on.

[Bad Bob]

yep maybe if we played our strongest 11 we could still have lost but then people like me would not have been able to blame the  rotation policy therefore the problem would have been narrowed down to tactics ect. its all ifs, buts and maybes because the team WAS dramatically changed so we cant rule out rotation as the problem. so tell me lando what do you think went wrong today ?? oh and by the way what are the required parameters,?

I haven't highlighted this to pick on the newbie or anything but I think it reveals something about the way some people evaluate our performances.

If Rafa rotates and we draw/lose, quite a few people will blame his rotation policy.  If he doesn't rotate (rare, I know ) and we still draw/lose then some--as nobybob indicates here--will turn from criticizing rotation to questioning tactics.  Note, however, that to do so is still to blame the manager for a draw/loss.  Whatever happened to pulling up the players and questioning their execution on the pitch?  Why is it necessarily something that Rafa did (or didn't do) that caused the problem?

Now, I'm not saying Rafa's perfect.  Nor am I saying that the selection and tactics were 100% spot on today.  But the players need to shoulder some of the responsibility for poor results as well.  Crouch and Voronin can and have played a lot better than they did today.  The same is true of Arbeloa and Agger.  Alonso was mediocre for me today and Pennant went missing for significant stretches.  To me, that's not Rafa's tactics...that's on the players themselves.

Maybe I'm nitpicking over semantics here.  Maybe people are acknowledging the players had a collectively poor day at the office as well as questioning Rafa's decisions.  I guess it just frustrates me to see Rafa getting the lion's share of the stick every time we don't get a result.