Portsmouth v liverpool - 7/2/09  17:30

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby tonyeh » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:44 pm

sgs wrote:
tonyeh wrote:
Reg wrote:The biggest oddity out of that game is we conceded 2 goals despite fielding 6 defenders?  What does that tell you? :laugh:

It tells you Rafa fielded the wrong team/formation/system for the job. Even with 6 defenders on the pitch, it looks like they were told to attack anyway (at least for the first 10 mins  :)   ) and it's not a job they can do well it seems.

I'm still made up with the result, but it's decisions like the one on Saturday that makes me believe that Rafa is not the man for the job. He's a chancer...and even with the risk of injury to Torres, Alonso or even Kuyt, that risk was far outweighed by the absolute disaster that a loss to Portsmouth would have yielded. IMO, it was a gamble that didn't need to be taken at all.

When looked at in the cold light of day, Liverpool struggled and went behind twice against a team that hadn't kept a clean sheet in 12 games and lost their last 9.

An exciting match for sure, but I never want those chances taken again with a title attempt.

So in your informed opinion he should've ignored the medical staff's advice and played Torres from start after the FA cup game, and then sent him on to play for Spain in midweek, then return to play over the weekend?

2ndly, if in your opinion he fielded the wrong team and formation, but still won, what then makes it wrong? The fact that you said so?

Pls help me out here...

Yeh...sounds like you need a bit of help alright.

In a match like this, with everything that was riding on it, all three of the subs should have started and once a couple of goals went in, Torres at least could have been benched, with Kuyt moving up front to fill the gap and Alonso being withdrawn whenever.

It's easier to defend a lead than it is to chase one and Pompey's defensive record has been awful.

Look...Liverpool nearly lost that game on Saturday. It was very close and there's plenty of days after that match to "rest" the players.

That gamble (and it was a gamble) nearly cost us dearly...and for what? Trying to avoid injury to players who had to be brought on anyway, when the idiocy of Rafa's blunder became apparent?

We needed to win that game on Saturday, not draw, not lose...win and Benitez's nonsense nearly cost us.

The result has simply glamoured some on here into thinking it was somehow ok to field a team like that and hope for the best (because that's what Rafa did), but those same people would be spitting blood if we'd lost and Benitez's position would have become untenable in the aftermath.
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Postby GYBS » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:48 pm

the problem you fail to see is they needed the rest cause they were all knackered and if they had started one or all three could of got injured hence why they didnt start with rafa consulting the medical team . i think they would know more about the physical state of a player than any of us .
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Postby tonyeh » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:49 pm

GYBS wrote:we were all over them for long periods but cold get past james - we didnt struggle .

Ha ha ha......we went behind TWICE!

That's not being "all over" anyone.

We may have had the lions share of possession, but we couldn't get a goal until changes were made.

Jesus Christ...positivity is one thing, but for fecks sake...   :no
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Postby GYBS » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:49 pm

its far safer to protect the players by keeping them off for a good 70 mins than to play them for 70 mins .
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Postby GYBS » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:50 pm

we went behind from an offside goal and a poor defended goal it wasnt like they were battering us .
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Postby tonyeh » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:51 pm

...and that so called "safety" nearly cost us big time.
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Postby GYBS » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:52 pm

but it didnt did it .
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:53 pm

Good fan article in the Times Fanzine section today (see below)


Lucky, lucky Liverpool

I think we all knew what the headlines were going to be as soon as Fernando Torres nodded in that 92nd minute winner. As the men on the pitch and the fans in the stand celebrated in the way only a last minute winner can be, the hacks in the press box had already written their match reports; and there's no way they were re-writing their critical words of the manager and his selections just because of a late winner.

"Late Torres winner gets manager off the hook"

"Rafa the rotator strikes lucky"

The lazy press, bar the odd few exceptions, seem to have a typecast of each club and report on that typecast no matter what.

For Arsenal they are brilliant to watch, producing flowing football and have some of the best youngsters around. Yet Wenger is never criticised, despite going without silverware for over 5 years and currently 12 points off the pace in the league and in grave danger of missing out on a Champions League slot for next season.

Chelsea have spent incredible sums of money, yet are currently sat 4th in the league, dropped yet more points at home over the weekend and have won only 4 of their last 11 matches. But they are known as a brilliant counter attacking side and one of Europe's best. A handful of fans may have unfurled a "Scolari Out" banner over the weekend, but you won't find the nation's press and media asking questions of him. I put that banner and the booing down to the small time "new fan" Chelsea have following them these days. A side with only 3 league titles and no European Cup wins in their entire history now trying to hound out a manager halfway through a season as they've dropped a few points.

Anyway, back to the point being made.

Every time Liverpool concede a goal from a set piece it's put down to zonal marking. The pundits hark on about it in every post-match analysis, stating how they don't like it and it doesn't work. Yet non of them have enough of a brain to realise that Liverpool have had the best defensive record in the league over the past 3 or 4 years using that system. Non of them ever question the man marking system when another side concedes a goal from a set piece do they? It's lazy and it's all part of the typecast associated with each club.

They state we are nothing without Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard and will struggle in a big way without them. Yet somehow we've managed to sit top of the league for large parts of the season, with Torres spending most of that time sitting in the stands through injury. We managed to beat United at home without Torres or Gerrard in the side. We beat Chelsea away without Torres in the side. We beat Portsmouth on Saturday without Gerrard in the side. All of which is ignored when reverting to type in writing those reports or asking questions at a press conference.

Where Alex Ferguson rests his players and keeps his players fresh, Benitez rotates or drops them; damaging their confidence and ruining all chance we have of winning the league. When Man Utd win by the odd goal away from home despite hardly having a shot on target, they are deemed unstoppable. When Liverpool win by the odd goal away from home, despite having chances to score 6 or 7 goals, we are deemed lucky.

The side Benitez sent out at the weekend surprised everyone. We can argue the rights and wrongs of it until Lescott's wife comes home, but he got the result, came home with 3 points and the key players were only required for the last quarter of the game at most. Job done. The game could have been, and should have been, over long before then. We had enough chances to win it before the introduction of the so called rested stars. That was always the plan. To try and win the game with the side put out, and if not, then the others were on the bench to come on and change things if needed. It worked, and yet the manager is still grilled post-match over his selection and policy of resting players.

Torres, Alonso and Kuyt all had gruelling games in midweek against Everton and left the field on their knees. All will be turning out for their countries this week, and I think Rafa knows that they will play for the majority of those games, so wanted to give them a chance to rest. Even if they play the full 90 minutes for their countries, they will have had a rest this weekend, and then have another week or so off until our next game, returning with batteries recharged.

That result put us back top of the league, albeit for only 24 hours, yet the manager was being interrogated in the way he would if we'd just drawn away from home at relegation candidates and looked in grave danger of missing out on the lucrative top 4 finish; a little bit like Arsene Wenger maybe? I wonder if he was dragged over hot coals yesterday afternoon after falling further behind in the race for 4th place, never mind the race for the title.

The media treatment of Rafa Benitez is a disgrace.

I was critical of him after the Wigan game, mainly for his removal of Steven Gerrard and the defensive approach to those games. And I still think that criticism was justified, as is all constructive criticism when required. But when the criticism is constant, no matter what the result, then it starts to become a little tedious.

On Saturday we may have started with a different system and players in unfamiliar positions, but for me, it was an improved performance from other recent games on the road. We attacked, and even when we went 1-0 and 2-1 down, I still thought we were going to win the game. We went forward, attacked in numbers and I just knew it was a matter of time before we scored again. That's something I couldn't say about the games at Stoke and Wigan, and it was a refreshing change. We ended the game with Torres, Kuyt, Babel and Benayoun playing upfront and going for it, which is exactly the way we need to be finishing those games, as there is no margin for error anymore. Every game is a must win.

Is it too much to ask for games to be reported on, without letting a vendetta against a manager dictate the tone of that report?

Paul Jones
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Postby Number 9 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:55 pm

Scottbot wrote:Good fan article in the Times Fanzine section today (see below)


Lucky, lucky Liverpool

I think we all knew what the headlines were going to be as soon as Fernando Torres nodded in that 92nd minute winner. As the men on the pitch and the fans in the stand celebrated in the way only a last minute winner can be, the hacks in the press box had already written their match reports; and there's no way they were re-writing their critical words of the manager and his selections just because of a late winner.

"Late Torres winner gets manager off the hook"

"Rafa the rotator strikes lucky"

The lazy press, bar the odd few exceptions, seem to have a typecast of each club and report on that typecast no matter what.

For Arsenal they are brilliant to watch, producing flowing football and have some of the best youngsters around. Yet Wenger is never criticised, despite going without silverware for over 5 years and currently 12 points off the pace in the league and in grave danger of missing out on a Champions League slot for next season.

Chelsea have spent incredible sums of money, yet are currently sat 4th in the league, dropped yet more points at home over the weekend and have won only 4 of their last 11 matches. But they are known as a brilliant counter attacking side and one of Europe's best. A handful of fans may have unfurled a "Scolari Out" banner over the weekend, but you won't find the nation's press and media asking questions of him. I put that banner and the booing down to the small time "new fan" Chelsea have following them these days. A side with only 3 league titles and no European Cup wins in their entire history now trying to hound out a manager halfway through a season as they've dropped a few points.

Anyway, back to the point being made.

Every time Liverpool concede a goal from a set piece it's put down to zonal marking. The pundits hark on about it in every post-match analysis, stating how they don't like it and it doesn't work. Yet non of them have enough of a brain to realise that Liverpool have had the best defensive record in the league over the past 3 or 4 years using that system. Non of them ever question the man marking system when another side concedes a goal from a set piece do they? It's lazy and it's all part of the typecast associated with each club.

They state we are nothing without Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard and will struggle in a big way without them. Yet somehow we've managed to sit top of the league for large parts of the season, with Torres spending most of that time sitting in the stands through injury. We managed to beat United at home without Torres or Gerrard in the side. We beat Chelsea away without Torres in the side. We beat Portsmouth on Saturday without Gerrard in the side. All of which is ignored when reverting to type in writing those reports or asking questions at a press conference.

Where Alex Ferguson rests his players and keeps his players fresh, Benitez rotates or drops them; damaging their confidence and ruining all chance we have of winning the league. When Man Utd win by the odd goal away from home despite hardly having a shot on target, they are deemed unstoppable. When Liverpool win by the odd goal away from home, despite having chances to score 6 or 7 goals, we are deemed lucky.

The side Benitez sent out at the weekend surprised everyone. We can argue the rights and wrongs of it until Lescott's wife comes home, but he got the result, came home with 3 points and the key players were only required for the last quarter of the game at most. Job done. The game could have been, and should have been, over long before then. We had enough chances to win it before the introduction of the so called rested stars. That was always the plan. To try and win the game with the side put out, and if not, then the others were on the bench to come on and change things if needed. It worked, and yet the manager is still grilled post-match over his selection and policy of resting players.

Torres, Alonso and Kuyt all had gruelling games in midweek against Everton and left the field on their knees. All will be turning out for their countries this week, and I think Rafa knows that they will play for the majority of those games, so wanted to give them a chance to rest. Even if they play the full 90 minutes for their countries, they will have had a rest this weekend, and then have another week or so off until our next game, returning with batteries recharged.

That result put us back top of the league, albeit for only 24 hours, yet the manager was being interrogated in the way he would if we'd just drawn away from home at relegation candidates and looked in grave danger of missing out on the lucrative top 4 finish; a little bit like Arsene Wenger maybe? I wonder if he was dragged over hot coals yesterday afternoon after falling further behind in the race for 4th place, never mind the race for the title.

The media treatment of Rafa Benitez is a disgrace.

I was critical of him after the Wigan game, mainly for his removal of Steven Gerrard and the defensive approach to those games. And I still think that criticism was justified, as is all constructive criticism when required. But when the criticism is constant, no matter what the result, then it starts to become a little tedious.

On Saturday we may have started with a different system and players in unfamiliar positions, but for me, it was an improved performance from other recent games on the road. We attacked, and even when we went 1-0 and 2-1 down, I still thought we were going to win the game. We went forward, attacked in numbers and I just knew it was a matter of time before we scored again. That's something I couldn't say about the games at Stoke and Wigan, and it was a refreshing change. We ended the game with Torres, Kuyt, Babel and Benayoun playing upfront and going for it, which is exactly the way we need to be finishing those games, as there is no margin for error anymore. Every game is a must win.

Is it too much to ask for games to be reported on, without letting a vendetta against a manager dictate the tone of that report?

Paul Jones

Been done mate
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Postby tonyeh » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:56 pm

GYBS wrote:but it didnt did it .

For fuck's sake.   :angry:
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Postby GYBS » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:57 pm

well there is no point talkign about nearly is there - we won the game - big players got a rest and fringe players got some game time - job done next game
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:59 pm

My take on the team selection was one of surprise but in this case i can see why he made the changes. We've been struggling to win games with full strength sides this season so I can understand leaving the big guns on the bench and then using them should the result look likes it was going against us as was the case on Saturday. Torres did look absolutely shattered against Everton so it made sense to use him later in the game when the opposition was tired and the game was stretched. I was very dissapointed to see Alonso on the bench but have to admit that Aurelio had a very tidy game at centre-mid.

All i know is that the result turned my weekend from a decent one to a bloody brilliant one as i headed out into Bournemouth straight after the game and couldn't stop grinning all night!
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Postby Number 9 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:01 am

tonyeh wrote:
GYBS wrote:but it didnt did it .

For fuck's sake.   :angry:

well he is right..it did'nt Tonyeh we did it we took all 3 points!

What do you want us to be like ?UTD who were outplayed by W Ham and scored a one nil winner?Or will you tell me that this is what winners do..be like UTD?
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Postby sgs » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:14 am

tonyeh wrote:
sgs wrote:
tonyeh wrote:
Reg wrote:The biggest oddity out of that game is we conceded 2 goals despite fielding 6 defenders?  What does that tell you? :laugh:

It tells you Rafa fielded the wrong team/formation/system for the job. Even with 6 defenders on the pitch, it looks like they were told to attack anyway (at least for the first 10 mins  :)   ) and it's not a job they can do well it seems.

I'm still made up with the result, but it's decisions like the one on Saturday that makes me believe that Rafa is not the man for the job. He's a chancer...and even with the risk of injury to Torres, Alonso or even Kuyt, that risk was far outweighed by the absolute disaster that a loss to Portsmouth would have yielded. IMO, it was a gamble that didn't need to be taken at all.

When looked at in the cold light of day, Liverpool struggled and went behind twice against a team that hadn't kept a clean sheet in 12 games and lost their last 9.

An exciting match for sure, but I never want those chances taken again with a title attempt.

So in your informed opinion he should've ignored the medical staff's advice and played Torres from start after the FA cup game, and then sent him on to play for Spain in midweek, then return to play over the weekend?

2ndly, if in your opinion he fielded the wrong team and formation, but still won, what then makes it wrong? The fact that you said so?

Pls help me out here...

Yeh...sounds like you need a bit of help alright.

In a match like this, with everything that was riding on it, all three of the subs should have started and once a couple of goals went in, Torres at least could have been benched, with Kuyt moving up front to fill the gap and Alonso being withdrawn whenever.

It's easier to defend a lead than it is to chase one and Pompey's defensive record has been awful.

Look...Liverpool nearly lost that game on Saturday. It was very close and there's plenty of days after that match to "rest" the players.

That gamble (and it was a gamble) nearly cost us dearly...and for what? Trying to avoid injury to players who had to be brought on anyway, when the idiocy of Rafa's blunder became apparent?

We needed to win that game on Saturday, not draw, not lose...win and Benitez's nonsense nearly cost us.

The result has simply glamoured some on here into thinking it was somehow ok to field a team like that and hope for the best (because that's what Rafa did), but those same people would be spitting blood if we'd lost and Benitez's position would have become untenable in the aftermath.

And if we had drawn after he withdrew Torres and the others, like the Wigan game?
Floyd stepped left and threw the hook that caught Hatton flush under the chin. Finally, the British champ had arrived in that mythical place of which his fans speak: Hatton Wonderland.
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Postby fivecups » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:21 am

Scottbot wrote:On Saturday we may have started with a different system and players in unfamiliar positions, but for me, it was an improved performance from other recent games on the road. We attacked, and even when we went 1-0 and 2-1 down, I still thought we were going to win the game. We went forward, attacked in numbers and I just knew it was a matter of time before we scored again. That's something I couldn't say about the games at Stoke and Wigan, and it was a refreshing change. We ended the game with Torres, Kuyt, Babel and Benayoun playing upfront and going for it, which is exactly the way we need to be finishing those games, as there is no margin for error anymore. Every game is a must win.

Enjoyed that article particularly this bit. It was great to see the whole team pushing forward more. There seemed to be a lot of space to play and players popping up everywhere looking to attack.
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