Players, moulds and quality. - A comparison to uniteds treble team

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby 115-1073096938 » Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:58 am

Not an exact comparrison but u'll get what i mean.

Personally i see football players in moulds. Basically you have types of players and i think you need to have the right ingredients to win a league and makes certain tactics work. Obviously there are exceptions but i feel you don't always need the best players to acheive success.

The way i see it is to play a flat 4-4-2 you need certain types of players.

For me the best midfield i've ever seen was Manchester Uniteds quartet or Giggs, Keane, Scholes and Beckham. Three world class players, a top class player and the correct mix of players made this the best midfield of at least the last 15 years.

You had a Winger in Ryan Giggs who speciallises in pace, dribbling, close control and creating chances.

A wide midfielder in the shape of Beckham whos game is all about technique, Crossing, passing and work rate.

A box to box ball winner in Roy Keane who had the engine and drive to push the team to its limits.

A creative central midfielder in Scholes who can pass a ball, spot the early through ball, play clever football but also mix it in a physical sense.

For me Liverpool have two of these players. Kewell (in the same mould as Giggs) and Gerrard (similar to Keane). I would put Cheyrou and Murphy in the same mould as Scholes although obviously not of the same quality. In my opinion with the right tactics i think Cheyrou could make that central midfield spot alongside Gerrard his own. I think technically he is superb and in terms of ability he has plenty. He seems to lack alot of confidence though and seems to be in a habbit of trying to hard to impress rather than relaxing into his normal game. I think if he done that the weaknesses in his game would start to iron themselves out. We have Hamann in there at the moment though who is a deep holding midfielder and i don't think the team should play with this kind of player.

In terms of strikers you need a target man and a pacey striker.

The moulds of strikers i would say are a penalty box striker, a pacey striker, a target man and a link man.

Penalty box strikers being Fowler, Shearer, RvN who's main strengths are scoring goals.

Pacey strikers, obviously Owen, Baros, Bellamy, the old Andy Cole.

Target man, Saha, Yorke the Emile Heskey of 2000-2001.

Link man, Bergkamp, Litmanen etc etc.

What united had with Cole and Yorke was a great mix. Yorke was a superb penalty box striker and a very good target man aswell.... he was also a link man... with Cole being the pacey striker. The old Dwight Yorke would have suited this Liverpool side down to the ground and in my opinion he is the sort of player we should be looking for. Thats what i liked about Saha, quite similar, maybe Yorke was a bit more of a poacher and Saha more of a target man but then both had similar strengths in that they are good alround.

The problems arise for Liverpool when we have to pin teams back. We don't have a penalty box striker who gets to the front post and scores poachers goals and headers. We have a target man who stuggles when opponents get physical and we have three pacey strikers, none of which are REAL goal poachers.

Personally defensively i feel Uniteds mix was also very good but i don't think it was as good as the other areas. It was a good defence with the best Goalkeeper ever behind it.

Defensively they had the domminant centre half in Stam. We have that with Hyypia. His partner Johnsen had good pace and was a good alround defender this is something we lack. We could do with a pacey centre half who's good on the ball and who can defend so that Narrows it down to Rio Ferdinand lol. Seriously though we need a player like that to play with Sami i feel. I think at right back they had a good defender who could provide an overlap, i see Finnan being as good as Neville was given time to settle. On the left Irwin, same as Neville but this is the only player imo that didn't fit 100% into the system.

So basically for me Liverpool now lack alot of things.

I personally think with a line-up of
Code: Select all
               Owen      ??????
Kewell     Cheyrou    Gerrard   ???? ???
Riise         Hyypia     ??????    Finnan
                     Kirkland


We could develope into a side good enough to be where we want it to be but it will take the right players to play in the question marked positions. For now i'd go with Carragher, Murphy and Baros. Which would Mean Hamann would have to play instead of Cheyrou short term as we would not be able to bed players in.

The players i'd pick for those positions are Lee Bowyer on the right (i'd expect the old performances though where he played like he meant it and scored goals), Saha upfront to act as a target man and get on the end of crosses aswell. He'd create goals aswell i would think with his pace and movement. At the back i'd go with Ferdinand. For me that team would then have the correct mix. I think we need to find players as close in style to those mentioned in this list. Obviously it will be really hard finding players of that quality, and the players i mentioned aren't ever going to play for us but players that have similar strengths would be a step forward imo. We need them to be better than the current players in those positions aswell.


Pacey Striker (Owen)       
Target Man + Goal-poacher in one (Cisse, would have preffered Saha)

Winger (Kewell)
Box to box ball winner (Gerrard)   
Creative player (Cheyrou, if he didn't produce i'd go for someone like David Dunn)
Hard working cultured wide player (Murphy till we find better)

Overlapping left back (Riise)
Commanding Centre half (Hyypia)
Pacey classy centre half (? ????? not Biscan)
Overlapping right back (Finnan)
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:51 pm

no one replied  :angry:
115-1073096938
 

Postby supersub » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:59 pm

sorry stu! have been busy over weekend,never saw it.I'll give it a read later feeding baby.
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Postby Owzat » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:06 pm

stu_the_red wrote:no one replied  :angry:

Are you surprised given the length?!?!?!?
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Postby DAV » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:11 pm

well stu i carnt fault those comments.
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:31 pm

Busy day for me Monday - so only normally get chance to write a few short posts. You make some good points in your post stu but i have to ask. If Houllier assembled a team to resemble that of United at their pomp, would we play like United in their pomp? If so, what makes you think we would/could?
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Postby JBG » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:58 pm

The only probelm with all of this Stu is that hardly any of the current Liverpool players, if any, are half as good as their counter parts in the UTD 1999 season.

As good as Gerrard is playing now he's still not a patch on Roy Keane in 1999.

Gerrard struggles to drag Liverpool back from 2-0 deficits against Southampton. Back then Roy Keane was dragging UTD out of 2-0 deficits away to Juventus.
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Postby oldredeyes » Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:59 pm

It's true JBG that Keane was a class act in the '99 team for Utd but I wouldn't put Stevie G down too much.
After all Keane was playing with a much better bunch of players around him - who responded to his drive and enthusiasm - unlike our lot who stand there and watch in awe as Gerrard tears up and down the pitch trying to do it all on his own.
As for your analysis Stu it is, as usual, well thought out and I understand your reluctance not to bring the manager into the equation - but GH is instrumental in deciding how we play, win or lose - and this season our play has been particularly poor. In fact if Newcastle had put together any sort of run we would not even be discussing our chances of fourth spot (even though that's a sad situation in itself).
I can't believe the managers blind faith in players who will never make the grade in the premiership, nor his excuses or his reluctance to admit when he gets it wrong.
The team looks shell shocked, tired and devoid of inspiration - and I don't put all of that down to the players - the management at the club has to assume responsibilty.
Sami Hypia is a good example of a player who has lost form and motivation. He hates playing alongside Biscan and his game suffers by not having a dominant and pacey partner in the middle. Stevie G needs someone like Malbranque alongside him and Harry Kewell needs to improve his fitness and play for 90 minutes like SG.
We probably need three class signings to complete the jigsaw and a fairly ruthless cull of the 'hangers on'.
We also need a whole new shift in attitude and confidence.
And the bit you won't like Stu - we need a manager with the clout to see it through.
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Postby supersub » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:10 pm

Totally agree oldredeyes.
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:25 pm

The only probelm with all of this Stu is that hardly any of the current Liverpool players, if any, are half as good as their counter parts in the UTD 1999 season.

As good as Gerrard is playing now he's still not a patch on Roy Keane in 1999.

Gerrard struggles to drag Liverpool back from 2-0 deficits against Southampton. Back then Roy Keane was dragging UTD out of 2-0 deficits away to Juventus.


JBG i understand we don't have that quality. But to have excellent quality and the right mix would be enough.

I feel Kewell can equal Giggs, Gerrard can equal Roy Keane, Owen can better both of there strikers, Hyypia can't quite match stam and no-one can match Schmeichal but i feel we can make up for it in other areas.

What you say about Stevey is harsh, i agree with what old red eyes says, he had the players around him who'd respond, we haven't yet but i feel we will get there.

As for your analysis Stu it is, as usual, well thought out and I understand your reluctance not to bring the manager into the equation - but GH is instrumental in deciding how we play, win or lose - and this season our play has been particularly poor. In fact if Newcastle had put together any sort of run we would not even be discussing our chances of fourth spot (even though that's a sad situation in itself).


I know what you mean but i think he'll eventually change this. Hence the signings of Cheyrou and Le Tallec, both centre mids mate :) He'll eventually play an attacking player with Stevey i think once we get that quality right sided player.

And the bit you won't like Stu - we need a manager with the clout to see it through.


I think he deserves next season. If after that we aren't SERIOUS challengers and looking like a side thats seriously threatening again then i may change my opinion. Until then tho i'll back the manager because i'd like him to succeed. Time is running out for him though.
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Postby supersub » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:50 pm

Everyone would like to have seen GH succeed,but the last 18 months are not encouraging and the growing feeling is,he may not be the man to take us up another level and challenge the top 3.We were at this point last season and most of us were happy to see Gerard re-group the players over the summer,add a few signings that would put us on the edge of our seats,and mount a concerted attempt on the title with a bit of flair to boot.This wasn't forth-coming,but what lost GH a lot of support/respect was his persistence in blaming everything he could think of including the cuddly toy and leaves on the line.
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Postby JBG » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:56 am

Old Red Eyes and Stu: don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing Stevie. He is really coming on this season and if he keeps going the way he is, he'll have reached or passed Keane's highest level in a year or two.

Roy Keane was superb in 1999: thats the standard Stevie needs to attain.
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