Liverpool FC Forum

[Stan Laurel]

John Bull, I agree with you, mate.

I said that on another post about Cisse, he doesn't impressed me actually.
He is not type of player that we need for, but Houllier is a big fan of him for long time.

[Fowler_E7]

apart from highlights and the last world cup i havnt seen much of cisse, he seemed ok but nothing to special. I mean 14m!!! in todays market we could 3 quality players with that, i say we get malbranque(5m), Gudjhonsen(7m) and a central defender cant think of any suitable and realistic targets at the mo. The prices in brackets are just predictions of what i think we could get them for

[redharry]

right om houlier

[azriahmad]

(JohnBull @ April 02 2004, 20:51)
I keep saying it, the problems are far more serious than the playing staff and until we have a board and manager working together soley for the benefit of Liverpool Football Club we are going nowhere!

I agree with JohnBull here, guys. No matter how much changes Liverpool make to the playing staff, the problem lies much deeper than that. We have some great players plus many decent ones but our Houllier's preferred style of play and the position he puts these players in are, in my opinion, the main problem. Also compounding the matter is the seemingly lack of confidence in the whole team.

I am sure many of you have seen how Manure or Arsenal play and compare to our style. Basically, we lack the ability to make penetrative and progressive passing play. Hard to explain but very frustating, just that it results in Liverpool having problems scoring. Newcastle would always score more than Liverpool, even though their defence is lousy. We can't break down well organised teams and the players lose confidence if we go a goal down.

Sorry, but no matter who we get on the playing department next season, we will still get nowhere if we were to retain the same management.

[115-1073096938]

Style of play?

The current Liverpool team should play like it did the season we finished second. Sit deep and draw teams onto us. We don't have the personel to play "swift attacking penatrative football". All these idiots who do on about style of play just talk out of there anal paassage. You introduce a style then look for the personel to make it work. OR you work with what you have and get the best out of them. This team is playing an attacking style without attacking players. When we played a defensive style we finished second in the league and got to the champions league quarters and won 4 cups.

[Supermarius]

We do have attacking players -Kewell,Owen Gerrard Riise and finnan can attack..but teams with less quality can play better attacking football than us. The defensive thing worked ok for a season but then teams just shut up shop and played out a boring draw..the fact is we should be far better than what we are.  WHEN I THINK OF THE MONEY SOME OF THESE PLAYERS GET -do they really care?

[Scottbot]

[quote]   We don't have the personel to play "swift attacking penatrative football". All these idiots who do on about style of play just talk out of there anal paassage. You introduce a style then look for the personel to make it work. OR you work with what you have and get the best out of them.

Stu - Who do you actually think is responsible for our style of play and the personnel to execute it? Houllier set out to play more attacking football at the start of the season. He did this because he realised siiting deep and hitting teams on the break had been sussed out by the majority of our opposition. In case you hadn't realised - Your umpteenth put-down of the opinions of fellow supporters is also a major criticism of your beloved Houllier. If we don't have the personnel to play swift attacking football then why the hell did Houllier set out to play that way this season?

[115-1073096938]

Stu - Who do you actually think is responsible for our style of play and the personnel to execute it? Houllier set out to play more attacking football at the start of the season. He did this because he realised siiting deep and hitting teams on the break had been sussed out by the majority of our opposition. In case you hadn't realised - Your umpteenth put-down of the opinions of fellow supporters is also a major criticism of your beloved Houllier. If we don't have the personnel to play swift attacking football then why the hell did Houllier set out to play that way this season?

He didn't realise that at all. Its bullsh#t. If your team is best suited to a counter attack thats how you should play. He gave in to fan pressure and thats why he's trying to balence it out.

Yeah your right i am saying Houllier done it to soon imo. Thats exactly what i am saying. He shouldn't have changed it untill he had the players.

I am not blind and i certainly am not dumb scott. I don't think all is well at the club and we are the best team in the world, i jus know for a fact nothing is as bad as half the idiotic doom merchants would have us believe. Houllier built one team, he done it a certain way. It peaked. He's now repeating the proccess.

[Scottbot]

I see your point, I also believe that Houllier gave in to fans/media pressure to play more attractive football - But attractive football works best - Always has. I simply don't think we can win the league playing on the counter week in week out. If you looked at every league in Europe over the last 15-20 years - The dominant teams are the ones who play(ed) attacking football, kept the ball and scored lots of goals.

Can GH get us playing like this? I don't think so - In which case i don't think he should be in the job after this season.

[115-1073096938]

No scott thats not true mate. None of the italian teams untill recently played this way and they've been the most successful nation in Europe in both international and club football. None of the German teams play out an out attacking football.

The fact is we amassed 80 points playing this way with an average strengthed team.

Gerrard was nowhere near the player he is now. Murphy and Smicer were regulars, Heskey played alot of games. All that team lacked was a left winger who was able to exploit the width created. You can win the league playing to your strengths. Not always attacking football.

Look at it this way. The united side that finished third had RvN, Keane, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham all better than anything we had, but tactically we were stronger.

[mrcool2003]

for once i think stu is right, i admit i wanted more attractive football, but i'd rather they played to their strengths until they have the right players, i reckon we need more solid defenders so then we can build on that get wingers in, really good wingers and then we can then concentrate on making this team into something special

[zackboxer]

Sorry but even Italian teams realised long ago that relying on a strong defence and counter attack wasn't enough at the highest levels. Have a look at the AC Milan side of the late Eighties, they pressed teams high up the pitch and completely dominated games. No Italian side have played purely counter attacking football with success since then.

Look at the top sides through out the Spanish, Italian and German leagues and you'll find that while they have the ability to defend well and counter attack, they are also able to win games by outplaying the opposition and breaking teams down.

Closer to home look at the United side of the last decade and the current Arsenal side that have dominated the premiership. No team has ever won the premiership playing the style you suggest. It's simply too one dimensional and will only get you so far.
You can argue that GH shouldn't have changed this style because he didn't have the players but to his credit I think GH realised to get to the next level we had to change. Unfortunately he just doesn't seem to have the acumen to get the team to play a different way.

[Supermarius]

well said zack!

[115-1073096938]

Sorry but even Italian teams realised long ago that relying on a strong defence and counter attack wasn't enough at the highest levels. Have a look at the AC Milan side of the late Eighties, they pressed teams high up the pitch and completely dominated games. No Italian side have played purely counter attacking football with success since then.

Look at the top sides through out the Spanish, Italian and German leagues and you'll find that while they have the ability to defend well and counter attack, they are also able to win games by outplaying the opposition and breaking teams down.

Closer to home look at the United side of the last decade and the current Arsenal side that have dominated the premiership. No team has ever won the premiership playing the style you suggest. It's simply too one dimensional and will only get you so far.
You can argue that GH shouldn't have changed this style because he didn't have the players but to his credit I think GH realised to get to the next level we had to change. Unfortunately he just doesn't seem to have the acumen to get the team to play a different way.

Haven't they?

Thats why currently the worlds best centre halfs (Cannavaro and Nesta) are both from italy. Possibly Milans best two players ever (Baresi and Maldini) were also defenders.

Explain that?

Explain the way Juventus done madrid over two legs last season and explain the reason why the europian cup final finished 0-0 with boths sides playing a similar style.

Your analysis is something i totally disagree with. I've said before 80 points with players that were nowhere near the standard of Uniteds.

Say we had Kewell instead of Smicer and Beckham instead of Murphy do you not think that even in that style it would have made us score more goals and be more able to take advantage of what we did create. The fact is you play to your strengths and you can achieve anything.

You say Houllier hasnt' got the ability to change the tactics, he has developed a different tactic now. Its a case of finding the right players to fit into the tactic much as he did with the treble winning side. He installed that old tactic as soon as he got the job then signed the players to fit the tactic. He's now basically got to do the same thing again.

[zackboxer]

If you actually bothered to read the post you would know that at no point did I say that Italian teams aren't great at defending but the old Italian style of sitting back an merely counter attacking teams has by and large been replaced by teams that have added more attacking style and flair to the defensive abilities they already posess. Look at the AC Milan teams in the 80's and 90's or the Juventus team of Zidane and Del Piero they had more than once aspect to their game.

Juventus beat Madrid over two legs because Madrid despite having the best attack in the world also have a defence which will always concede goals.
I'm not saying you don't need a good defence but also that you have to have bit more in your armoury than looking to merely counter attack. I'd agree with you about last years final being cr#p, it was dire but compare the Milan team of last year with current team and look what they have added. They still have a great defence no one disputes that but have added the capability to take teams apart and dominate games and are now a vastly superior team than last season.

So why has a premiership club never won the title by playing your "superior" tactic of sitting deep and drawing teams onto us ? Can you explain that ?
I guess the Premiership champions each year just haven't been lucky enough to possess a team that could play that way like we did!

You're clearly a big fan of GH, so why exactly did he change the style of a team that was doing so well? In an earlier post you say it was fan pressure ??
He is under far more pressure now than he was in charge of a team that had just finished second and to give him his due doesn't seem to bow to fan pressure at all and has always had a strong belief in what he is doing with the team.
So bowing to fan pressure doesn't seem plausible as he has clearly shown that he will follow the path he feels is right regardless of any criticism.

"He installed that old tactic as soon as he got the job then signed the players to fit the tactic. He's now basically got to do the same thing again"
So your saying he discarded his chosen style of play, that he had built a team around and had success with due to fan pressure ??

It may have often been boring but it had been effective for him.
Houllier is a strong character and you honestly think he would do that?!
If he bowed to fan pressure so easily why has he not reverted back to this chosen way of playing despite the poor performance of the team over the last two seasons. Surely he must firmly believe that despite all the flack, the decision he had made to try and play a more encompassing attacking game is the right one or he wouldn't still be sticking to this tactic.
Gh is not a bad manager and did well in his first three years and had the intelligence to know that he needed to add more creativity to the side to take the club further.
I would totally agree with his decision to change the teams tactics.
My argument is that in the two years since then there has been very few signs that he can create a side that is able to play in the way he has decided it must to take another step forward and as a result the team has gone backwards.

What you are basically saying is that GH is a good manager who made a massive mistake and has spent the last two years playing the wrong tactics with the wrong players but we should keep him on anyway?!?!