Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Yes as I've said many times, we made two glaring errors this season which ensured we never ever got within range of being contenders for the title. Firstly of course we over-styled ourselves into continuous bliiiiiiiiiiiips earlier in the season. I've just typed two paragraphs on it and then deleted it (see I do think of you guys!) so suffice to say the arguments already been done. Some people on here are still refusing to accept it which is entirely their privilage but thankfully the manager appears to have accepted it now which is the main thing going forward.

The other obvious glaring error was in the refusal to consider playing Crouch instead of Kuyt as Torres's partner. Many consider Crocuh as not good enough to be a striker for Liverpool and once again that's fair enough, but despite the Dutchman doing an admirable job at right midfield there surely can't be many people left who think he is a better bet up front than Crouch. Game after game after game we watched as Kuyt laboured on, obviously absolutely devoid of confidence. many of us despite critcising him even felt for the fella, he was really suffering there for a few months. This is part of the reason why so many are pleased to see him now enjoying his football again and his prodigious industry being beneficial to the team. How many more points would we have had though had the big fella played in the games which Dirk did?

Nobody knows of course, and there is always the possibility it would in fact have been less points. I very much doubt it though, Crouch scores more, makes more and offers more as a striker. No doubt Owz' will come on and dispute that with a stat which counts a five minute cameo as an appearance, or two penalties as the same as two normal goals, or career stats which include the seventeen games it took the big fella to score his first goal but it makes no odds. He may well not quite be good enough for a title winning team, but he is vastly superior to the bloke who started in front of him in all those matches. A huge error I'm afraid.

[Scottbot]

Liverpool 2007/08 = P53 W30 D15 L8 F109 A44

Without Gerrard's Goals = P53 W27 D17 L9 F88 A44
Without Torres' Goals = P53 W24 D15 L14 F79 A44
Without Torres' or Gerrard's Goals = P53 W17 D20 L16 F58 A44



Without Crouch's Goals = P53 W30 D12 L11 F100 A44

Can you put together some similar stats for our rivals mate? Be interesting to see utd's record minus Ronaldo and Rooney's goals, Arsenal without Adebayor and Fabregas and Chelsea without Lampard and Drogba.

[Owzat]

Liverpool 2007/08 = P53 W30 D15 L8 F109 A44

Without Gerrard's Goals = P53 W27 D17 L9 F88 A44
Without Torres' Goals = P53 W24 D15 L14 F79 A44
Without Torres' or Gerrard's Goals = P53 W17 D20 L16 F58 A44



Without Crouch's Goals = P53 W30 D12 L11 F100 A44

Can you put together some similar stats for our rivals mate? Be interesting to see utd's record minus Ronaldo and Rooney's goals, Arsenal without Adebayor and Fabregas and Chelsea without Lampard and Drogba.

I did a while back on a different forum, unfortunately the rival fans throw their toys out the pram if you suggest without Ronaldo their team is sh1 te or O'Neill is over-rated or they are a bunch of nonces. Fans of teams don't like stats because of what they show, no difference there then regards this forum!

I know the Ronaldo stats were alarming, considering how many he scores that isn't surprising. This takes a little longer as I have to compile these from scratch

Man Utd 2007/08 = P51 W36 D9 L6 F101 A30

Without Ronaldo's Goals = P51 W22 D20 L9 F63 A30
Without Rooney's Goals = P51 W34 D10 L7 F84 A30
Without Ronaldo's or Rooney's Goals = P51 W17 D24 L10 F46 A30

Interestingly Ronaldo missed three of Man Utd's six defeats and scored just a single goal, a consolation in the defeat at West Ham. And he has scored 35 goals in their wins and a mere 3 when they lose or draw.

I can't be arsed to do Chelsea or Arsenal, takes too long and wouldn't prove much more than a single comparison with the mancs. I did Adebayor's stats back when I first did Ronaldo and Rooney's, he made less significant impact as you might expect.

Without Ronaldo's or Rooney's Goals = P51 W17 D24 L10 F46 A30
Without Torres' or Gerrard's Goals = P53 W17 D20 L16 F58 A44

[JC_81]

Liverpool 2007/08 = P53 W30 D15 L8 F109 A44

Without Gerrard's Goals = P53 W27 D17 L9 F88 A44
Without Torres' Goals = P53 W24 D15 L14 F79 A44
Without Torres' or Gerrard's Goals = P53 W17 D20 L16 F58 A44



Without Crouch's Goals = P53 W30 D12 L11 F100 A44

Can you put together some similar stats for our rivals mate? Be interesting to see utd's record minus Ronaldo and Rooney's goals, Arsenal without Adebayor and Fabregas and Chelsea without Lampard and Drogba.

I did a while back on a different forum, unfortunately the rival fans throw their toys out the pram if you suggest without Ronaldo their team is sh1 te or O'Neill is over-rated or they are a bunch of nonces. Fans of teams don't like stats because of what they show, no difference there then regards this forum!

I know the Ronaldo stats were alarming, considering how many he scores that isn't surprising. This takes a little longer as I have to compile these from scratch

Man Utd 2007/08 = P51 W36 D9 L6 F101 A30

Without Ronaldo's Goals = P51 W22 D20 L9 F63 A30
Without Rooney's Goals = P51 W34 D10 L7 F84 A30
Without Ronaldo's or Rooney's Goals = P51 W17 D24 L10 F46 A30

Interestingly Ronaldo missed three of Man Utd's six defeats and scored just a single goal, a consolation in the defeat at West Ham. And he has scored 35 goals in their wins and a mere 3 when they lose or draw.

I can't be arsed to do Chelsea or Arsenal, takes too long and wouldn't prove much more than a single comparison with the mancs. I did Adebayor's stats back when I first did Ronaldo and Rooney's, he made less significant impact as you might expect.

Without Ronaldo's or Rooney's Goals = P51 W17 D24 L10 F46 A30
Without Torres' or Gerrard's Goals = P53 W17 D20 L16 F58 A44

I honestly don't see the point in those stats.

All that effort just to prove that the top teams would get much less points without their best players.  I could have told you that anyway.

[Owzat]

I honestly don't see the point in those stats.

All that effort just to prove that the top teams would get much less points without their best players.  I could have told you that anyway.

It is for interest, if the forum simply revolved around stupid slanging matches and everyone agreeing or disagreeing it would be boring.

That stat shows the value of those players, the impact they have on their team. Yes ANYONE "could have told you that anyway." but it is interesting to see the extent of it. Like anyone could tell you that "Liverpool are way behind the leaders" or "Liverpool lose too many games", but to actually quantify that is interesting (to some)

If it is of no interest to you then don't bother reading it or replying to it - simple. So why did you and why didn't YOU tell me that?

And there was no effort in the Liverpool stats, that is a constantly updated record and a simple bit of taking one figure from another. Much better to spend my time typing a few sentences of nothing like you and a lot of other people on forums worldwide I guess...........................

[JC_81]

I honestly don't see the point in those stats.

All that effort just to prove that the top teams would get much less points without their best players.  I could have told you that anyway.

It is for interest, if the forum simply revolved around stupid slanging matches and everyone agreeing or disagreeing it would be boring.

That stat shows the value of those players, the impact they have on their team. Yes ANYONE "could have told you that anyway." but it is interesting to see the extent of it. Like anyone could tell you that "Liverpool are way behind the leaders" or "Liverpool lose too many games", but to actually quantify that is interesting (to some)

If it is of no interest to you then don't bother reading it or replying to it - simple. So why did you and why didn't YOU tell me that?

And there was no effort in the Liverpool stats, that is a constantly updated record and a simple bit of taking one figure from another. Much better to spend my time typing a few sentences of nothing like you and a lot of other people on forums worldwide I guess...........................

Your stats are boring and they quantify nothing apart from how many goals those players have scored.

In Liverpool's case, is it a surprise that the two players who play the furthest forward score most of the goals?  No it isn't.

You say your stats show 'the value of those players, the impact they have on the team'.  No they don't.  They show how many goals they have scored which isn't even half of the truth in terms of their value to the team and impact they have.  Your stats don't show the relative importance of these goals, the off the ball work of both of these players, how they bring other players into play, and in Gerrard and Torres' cases how they inspire those around them, benefitting the team as a whole.

But that aside, creating false win-loss records for United or Liverpool simply by taking away the respective efforts of Rooney/Ronaldo and Gerrard/Torres seems pointless.  What does that actually tell you?  That if those teams each played with 9 players on the park rather than 11 (minus their two best) then they'd have much fewer points?  Fu.cking genius that by the way.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

how can anyone believe those stats. If Gerrard/Torres didn't play someone else would and might of scored more goals which means the win record would be more. Stupid stats that mean absoloutely nothing.

Back to the point thought, Peter Crouch has again proven that he's worthy of a start for Liverpool.

[Toffeehater]

Back to the point thought, Peter Crouch has again proven that he's worthy of a start for Liverpool.

In place of who? Torres? Kuyt? , Gerrard? crouch would not suit the 4-2-3-1 formation .

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Back to the point thought, Peter Crouch has again proven that he's worthy of a start for Liverpool.

In place of who? Torres? Kuyt? , Gerrard? crouch would not suit the 4-2-3-1 formation .

2004/05 away to Arsenal...we lost 3-1
2005/06 away to Arsenal...we lost 2-1
2006/07 away to Arsenal...we lost 3-0
2007/08 away to Arsenal...we drew 1-1.

Crouch up front on his todd in a the 4-2-3-1 formation and we get our first away point to Arsenal under Benitez. Why doesn't this system suit Crouch?

Fair enough it's just one game, but it makes simple reading. Crouch can play up front on his own just as well and that's when he hasn't had the regulars with him like Torres. I can't remember too many games where Torres hasn't been playing with Kuyt, Babel and Gerrard behind him in this 4-2-3-1 formation and likewise I can't remember to many games where Crouch has had those three.

So again why doesn't this system suit Crouch? I'll answer it for you...it doesn't suit Crouch because Torres has to play, so Crouch who is a great player and quite frankly is good enough to play at this club, has to miss out. I can accept that, Torres has been probably the best player in the league this year. But for people to complain that the system doesn't suit Crouch is stupidity. He's proven he can play up front on his own.

[woof woof !]

So again why doesn't this system suit Crouch? I'll answer it for you...it doesn't suit Crouch because Torres has to play, so Crouch who is a great player and quite frankly is good enough to play at this club, has to miss out. I can accept that, Torres has been probably the best player in the league this year. But for people to complain that the system doesn't suit Crouch is stupidity. He's proven he can play up front on his own.

That in no way supports you're declaration that you'll answer the question

So again why doesn't this system suit Crouch?

Simply stating that

it doesn't suit Crouch because Torres has to play

is f'ucking laughable. You expect us to take this as some deep seated insight / analysis ?



PLASTIC ?   

[Toffeehater]

Back to the point thought, Peter Crouch has again proven that he's worthy of a start for Liverpool.

In place of who? Torres? Kuyt? , Gerrard? crouch would not suit the 4-2-3-1 formation .

2004/05 away to Arsenal...we lost 3-1
2005/06 away to Arsenal...we lost 2-1
2006/07 away to Arsenal...we lost 3-0
2007/08 away to Arsenal...we drew 1-1.

Crouch up front on his todd in a the 4-2-3-1 formation and we get our first away point to Arsenal under Benitez. Why doesn't this system suit Crouch?

Fair enough it's just one game, but it makes simple reading. Crouch can play up front on his own just as well and that's when he hasn't had the regulars with him like Torres. I can't remember too many games where Torres hasn't been playing with Kuyt, Babel and Gerrard behind him in this 4-2-3-1 formation and likewise I can't remember to many games where Crouch has had those three.

So again why doesn't this system suit Crouch? I'll answer it for you...it doesn't suit Crouch because Torres has to play, so Crouch who is a great player and quite frankly is good enough to play at this club, has to miss out. I can accept that, Torres has been probably the best player in the league this year. But for people to complain that the system doesn't suit Crouch is stupidity. He's proven he can play up front on his own.

HE can't play anywhere apart in a striker's postion , thts why i said are we going to sacrifice torres for crouch , as mad as u are john  , don't think even u will do that . If crouch can play anywhere on else and be effective like kuyt has been since moving to a winger's position i'd happily eat my words

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I'm not saying swap Torres for Crouch, as mad as I am I'm not soft. Alls I'm saying is Peter Crouch can play up top on his own, or as a partner for Torres. Unfortunately it seems Crouch will be off in the summer, and IMO we're losing a very good and very handy player in Crouch. I hope he succeeds at his next club, and he'll always be welcomed back by the Liverpool fans with his new club.

[Owzat]

He'll be off to USA, an LA Galaxy far far away.

[Toffeehater]

Nope he'll be gone to either newcastle , man city or pompey , expected price shud be 10mill .

[B.Penno]

I think Kuyt offers than Crouch but despite that if liverpool do rotate get the man involved hes done nothing but give his all and he clearly has affection for the club