Liverpool FC Forum

[RedRoots]

Do we buy players because of their reputation rather than their ability?

no, that's what newcastle do.

You can't say no we don't because we do. Newcastle are one of the sides who do it as well, but we are guilty also. Ciise top scorer in France so we bought him. Heskey played well for Leicester and was superb for us in his first season when he was played in his proper postion, in the box. We bought Diouf after a good world cup performance in 2002.

My faith in Rafa is strong enough that if he buys a player for a big sum of money then he must have some quality. Xabi Alonso was bought for a big sum and has proved every penny worth. Pepe Reina was bought for a lot, considering other keepers and again has proved to be good buisness by Rafa. So if he does buy Kuyt for over 14 mill then he must be worth it.

Do you even know yourself what the hell you're on about? you say "if he(Rafa) buys a player for a big sum of money then he must have some quality", therefore if rafa hasn't paid a big sum of money for other players who haven't worked out he has hardly paid over the odds for them has he!!

And don't bring Houllier into this, he's not our manager.

[66-1120597113]

Do we buy players because of their reputation rather than their ability?

It's not just Liverpool who do this. Practically every side in the world pays over the odds for players, but Liverpool, espeially under GH, seemed to do a bit too much. Cisse 14 million, Heskey 11 million and Diouf for 10 million. All of who didn't perform the way their price tag needed. Also we had Morientes for 6 mill, which because of his reputation looked good buisness but proved it wasn't, especially when we only got 3 million back in for him.

Is it going to be the same with Bellamy and Pennant? Is 6 mill for both of them to much? By what I have seen it looks as if we have got 2 bargains but it's hard to make a real judgement in pre-season. I heard that Feyernoord aren't willing to sell Kuyt for anything less than 14 million, and despite his record more than  14 million is a lot for an unproven player in the Premiership. If we have the 14 million I would rather spend it on players who have proven they can hack it and score in England. Ashton and Robbie Keane would both be good buys for us.

Cisse looked good for £14m at the time,he was banging in goals from everywhere in France!
2 seasons on the trot he was by far the leading goalscorer,so i can understand why Houllier at the time felt he was worth the money.
In hindsite we all now know the gamble never paid off,but there is always that gamble when bringing players from other countries with other styles of play...Will they,can they adapt?

Unfortunately Morientes never seemed to settle either,but again with his pedigree and what was expected off him i can say that £6m seemed good business at the time..he just could'nt for some reason cut it in the EPL.

As for Pennant and Bellamy?
I'd say we have done well there and even go as far to use the term 'bargain'....time will tell there.
Bellamy i feel was sold for his price as he is renound for his temprement!Clubs these days judge players on reputation as much as ability.Bellamy will be well worth his price,mark my words!
As for Pennant...if anyone thinks that £6m is over the odds for him in afraid they now nothing of the player and have seen nothing of what the lad can do!
His price for a young player who has the potential to be one of the best wingers in England is an absolute snip and we should all be delighted with his transfer!He too has been judged as he spent time in jail for a drink driving offence,this i feel is why he was not snapped up by another club before we got him.The lad has done his time and the past is history and at the end of the day nobodys business!Fair play to Raffa for giving him a chance.

So i think its wrong that anyone can think at present that Raffa or LFC will pay 'over the odds' for any player regardless of stature,ability,record or anything else...it simply wont happen! Take your mind back to this time last seaon when Raffa wanted to sign Sambrosa,had an offer of i think it was £10 m...They wanted £14m and were politely told and rightly so to stick the deal up there @rses..the guy was not worth that!

Raffa himself last week stated that LFC will not be paying £20m for a player that is worth £10m,its as simple as that!
In the past we may have had some bad dealings.All clubs have.
Now and in the near future LFC will not be paying over the odds for anyone!Raffa's too shrewd!!

[Billy_5_Times]

And this topic is buying players for more than what is needed. Rafa hasn't done this, and I have never said he has.

Sure you did.  In your opening post, where you said we bought Morientes for 6 million and sold him for 3 million, which was bad business.  Surely you are arguing that Rafa paid over the odds for him?

Also, your persistent tirade about how useless Garcia is suggests that you think Rafa paid well over the odds for him to, since you don't even think he's good enough for Liverpool.

Now you're arguing that Rafa has never paid over the odds for any of his transfers which is in clear contradiction to your previous comments, including comments in this very thread! 

In the end Rafa has paid over the odds but at the time it looked as if the buys were for good prices.

[Billy_5_Times]

and as for comparing his signings to shanks and paisley, that's just ridiculous.

Very ridiculous seeing as signings were in the thousands, not the millions.

Prices may have changed but talent doesn't. There must be players with as much talent as the people with smaller price tags than the ones we are bringing in for millions.

[GunGod]

Do we buy players because of their reputation rather than their ability?

It's not just Liverpool who do this. Practically every side in the world pays over the odds for players, but Liverpool, espeially under GH, seemed to do a bit too much. Cisse 14 million, Heskey 11 million and Diouf for 10 million. All of who didn't perform the way their price tag needed. Also we had Morientes for 6 mill, which because of his reputation looked good buisness but proved it wasn't, especially when we only got 3 million back in for him.

Is it going to be the same with Bellamy and Pennant? Is 6 mill for both of them to much? By what I have seen it looks as if we have got 2 bargains but it's hard to make a real judgement in pre-season. I heard that Feyernoord aren't willing to sell Kuyt for anything less than 14 million, and despite his record more than  14 million is a lot for an unproven player in the Premiership. If we have the 14 million I would rather spend it on players who have proven they can hack it and score in England. Ashton and Robbie Keane would both be good buys for us.

A bit harsh on the Morientes issue there. I think 90% of football fans thought Moro was a good buy at that time. Remember how everyone thought he fits the bill of the typical English forward, strong in the air and on the ball. A perfect target man. He was also almost a bait to lure SG to sign a new contract. His class was unquestionable then.

I would say we bought him for his playing ability for the last time we saw him playing consistently before we bought him was at Monaco, where he of course emerged as the CL top scorer. But then he was left to rot in RM bench for quite some time. So was that decision based on playing ability, or reputation? 

A chicken or egg problem in this sense that if a player hasn't got the playing ability, he wouldn't have a good reputation. Unless of course, he's English. 

[Espionage]

And this topic is buying players for more than what is needed. Rafa hasn't done this, and I have never said he has.

Sure you did.  In your opening post, where you said we bought Morientes for 6 million and sold him for 3 million, which was bad business.  Surely you are arguing that Rafa paid over the odds for him?

Also, your persistent tirade about how useless Garcia is suggests that you think Rafa paid well over the odds for him to, since you don't even think he's good enough for Liverpool.

Now you're arguing that Rafa has never paid over the odds for any of his transfers which is in clear contradiction to your previous comments, including comments in this very thread! 

In the end Rafa has paid over the odds but at the time it looked as if the buys were for good prices.

Reputation, class, skill whatever you want to call it is always reflected in price.  Basic laws of supply and demand determined the price he was sold for, and at the time 6m was not a bad buy.  There would have been plently of people that would have bought him for that price. We recouped 3m and for a guy of that age is pretty good.  Other than that I dont think that Rafa has made any really bad signings that had a chance to hang around.  He got rid of Nunez, Pelligrino and Josemi before we got rid of GH's deadwood.

Gonzalez, Sissoko, Reina and Alonso.  -Great buys
Crouch, Agger, Paletta, Aureilo, Bellamy and Pennant.  -Good business, could all potentially end up as great buys.
He did well swaping Kronkamp for the struggling Josemi

He has never paid over the odds for anyone, GH yes, but not Rafa
Crouch proved his worth, no one else is even debatable.....
With all that he has done right, how can you be complaining?

[The_Rock]

I am the 1st to admit that i am not one of rafa's biggest fan.....

But even I have to say that Rafa has to be the most shrewd manager in this league now.

Just look at these comparisons....

1)

Alonso for 10 million
Carrick for 18 million

2)

Pennent for 6 million
SWP for 27 million

3)
Auerlio for free
Del Horno for don't know how many million 


this is just the icing ........ I am sure the others can come up with more obvious examples.....

[kazza]

I think Raffa is shrewder than some give him credit. Simao was supposed to come twice and it was price that stopped the deal (and I do not think we were that far apart). Alves was supposed to come but high price stopped the deal. It remains to be seen whether Dirk Kuyte will come but apparently Raffa is not willing to meet his team's valuation of the player.

Pennent and Bellamy were cheap because of their reputations not expensive so no I do not think we buy players due to their reputation.

[Espionage]

I am the 1st to admit that i am not one of rafa's biggest fan.....

But even I have to say that Rafa has to be the most shrewd manager in this league now.

Just look at these comparisons....

1)

Alonso for 10 million
Carrick for 18 million

2)

Pennent for 6 million
SWP for 27 million

3)
Auerlio for free
Del Horno for don't know how many million 


this is just the icing ........ I am sure the others can come up with more obvious examples.....

Sissoko for 5m
Essien for 25m

[coddy]

Carrick 18m, watching him in crutches, priceless

[redmikey]

the best case of rafa not having his pants pulled down in the transfere market is OWEN

a player we needed at the time and wanted by the squad the board and the manager but not for twice the price we let him go for, no matter what rafa will do what is best for the team, no player is to big even steve g knows that as rafa was prepared to let him go and had sorted xabi and momo to lessen the blow

imo kyte didn't impress in the world cup and at 6 million would be a risk but 14 mill is way to much

[JoeTerp]

I am not sure you can call Gonzalez a "Great Buy" when he is yet to play a minute in a meaningful game as a Red.

[Billy_5_Times]

the best case of rafa not having his pants pulled down in the transfere market is OWEN

a player we needed at the time and wanted by the squad the board and the manager but not for twice the price we let him go for, no matter what rafa will do what is best for the team, no player is to big even steve g knows that as rafa was prepared to let him go and had sorted xabi and momo to lessen the blow

imo kyte didn't impress in the world cup and at 6 million would be a risk but 14 mill is way to much

Spot on.

I don't think Stevie ever wanted to go but was willing to until he got the money he wanted.

Kuyt was useless at the world cup and unproven in England so 14 million is a huge risk. It could be another Ciise. Where the only way we get rid of them is by sending them on loan or at best getting a 6 million return.

[mcflynn]

Luis Garcia is quality !!!!!!!!  don't bad mouth ure players soo easy ! he had a good world cup , tricky to play against ,scores vital goals in both seasons especialy in cup runs. does give the ball away to often , but still a great  player.

[Billy_5_Times]

Luis Garcia is quality !!!!!!!!  don't bad mouth ure players soo easy ! he had a good world cup , tricky to play against ,scores vital goals in both seasons especialy in cup runs. does give the ball away to often , but still a great  player.

I know most of you worship Luis Garcia but can someone explain to me how he is difficult to mark? If you stand 5 feet off him he will do a little trick, it wont come off and you have the ball. There is no difficulty in that. He is only diffiult to mark around the box beause he is so light the slightest touch he will go down and maybe get a pen and if you are too close to him because his flicks look good then beuase they go past the player and the defender has to either bring him down or stand his ground and nowadays that is class as obstruction.