Out of the blocks.....where will we be? - And does it matter?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby account deleted by request » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:52 pm

I know how you love to read Tomkins Mick, here's why we don't need to be fast out of the blocks  :D

TOMKINS: SLOW START IS NEVER THE END
Paul Tomkins 17 August 2009 
Liverpoolfc.tv columnist Paul Tomkins explains why our opening day defeat doesn't spell disaster for Rafa Benitez and his title hopefuls. 



I had a strange reaction this close-season; the exact opposite of usual, in fact.
 
By May, I'm usually glad to see the back of the domestic season, with disappointment or acceptance long-since set in stone (although European runs had become a welcome bonus). But then the new season would bring with it fresh optimism. It can only be better, right?
 
However, I didn't want last season to end. I could have watched Liverpool in that form for another few months, as they finished the season as the most in-form side in the land, and possibly only second to Barcelona in the world at that precise time, scoring three or more goals most weeks, and with four against Real Madrid, Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal.
 
When it did end, I wanted the new season to start there and then. Bring it on! Even by the middle of the summer, I still felt that this was going to be Liverpool's year.
 
But in the weeks leading up to the season I started to dip. Just as with half-time in a game you're dominating but not yet winning, the break came at the wrong time. Would Liverpool emerge in the same shape when the football resumed?
 
The more I thought about it, the more I concluded that it was unlikely. I fully expected that form to be found again before too long, but the momentum had to be rebuilt. Pre-season proved that; everyone is now starting again in terms of fitness and sharpness – and individual confidence, while carried over to some degree, is, three months after the team last played together, back to a more neutral setting.
 
To complicate matters, yet again Liverpool had several key players arriving back for pre-season training later than the others, with Spain's success last summer leading to further complications this year, in terms of being 100 per cent on the opening day.
 
I guess it occurred to me that, while what was achieved last season will aid this current challenge in a number of ways, it would not automatically follow from the first minute of the first game. That was the reality check.
 
And it also occurred that the performances at the end of last season would actually be a peak for many teams; it's not that they couldn't be reproduced, simply that such a concentrated set of results is very rare. After all, six consecutive games with three or more scored was a 117-year club record.
 
But of course, Liverpool don't need to take 31 points out of every 33, or win by three or four goals every week. A title is built on little bits here and there, that add up to something more significant than their rivals can muster.
 
Last week it also hit home that, with quite a few injuries, we weren't going to see Rafa Benitez's strongest XI right away. That, combined with the nature of the opening fixture, made me more anxious than usual. And obviously Liverpool's squad would look thinner with a number of players out injured; five or six players missing makes a difference to any team.
 
Injuries are part and parcel of football, and have to be dealt with, and in the case of Alberto Aquilani, there was little option but to accept it.
 
Once Xabi Alonso asked to leave it was always going to cause a problem in the short term, and Aquilani was one of the few players capable of replacing him – such quality hardly abounds. But for obvious reasons, neither would be available at White Hart Lane.
 
Rafa summed it up perfectly by saying that Aquilani was signed for five years, not five games. Better to get the right player and wait a few weeks, than buy someone less gifted just for the sake of numbers. That then demands patience on our part.
 
In theory, Aquilani actually offers a more exciting style of play than his predecessor, as does Glen Johnson at right-back. We just don't get to experience that instant gratification in the case of the Italian, the kind that lifts fans. A great debut, and we'd have been buzzing. But that boost awaits.
 
So it'd be very wrong to judge Liverpool definitively before Aquilani is fit, and several others too. The long-term picture also applies to Gerrard and Torres, who can only get sharper; both looked rusty at White Hart Lane, but that is fairly natural, especially as they both missed parts of pre-season.
 
And I was also dreading this season because in the past I've found it hard at times to try and get some fans to get a bad result in perspective. This season I sense that every single dropped point will be met with total and widespread despair.
 
That is because more is expected. And rightly so. But this will not be a 'perfect' season. The conclusion in May could well be what we consider perfect, but the road to get there won't. It just can't be.
 
No champions have ever dropped fewer than 19 points in a season, and yet the end of the world will be nigh every time a game isn't won.
 
Last season commenced with Manchester United totally underwhelming in drawing at home to Newcastle who, by contrast, looked in fine fettle. The season before, it was Reading who drew at Old Trafford; nine months later they too, like Newcastle, were relegated and United crowned champions. So early games are not indicative of the season ahead, even if it's obviously nicer to start with a win.
 
I've debunked several of Liverpool's supposed crises in recent years, so it was great to read comedian (and Arsenal fan) Dara O'Briain's piece in The Guardian last week about the ever-increasing speed of a crisis being decreed.
 
He mocked the 'supposed' crises at every top four club last season, and to that I'd like to add that the following is true: Arsenal went on a 23-game unbeaten run; Liverpool broke numerous club records and one all-time league record (fewest-ever defeats for runners-up); Chelsea broke the all-time English record for most consecutive away wins; and United broke the all-time English record for longest period without conceding a goal.
 
All four were European Cup quarter-finalists, three were semi-finalists, and three finished with 83 league points or more. Yet each was supposedly in crisis at some point; indeed, at numerous points. That's how people react to football, and it can drive you insane.
 
As ever, I'm mentally prepared for the ups and downs that come with any given season, good or bad. In my own mind I'm prepared for what happens with the team.
 
But am I prepared for the hysteria of others? The caterwauling, the giving up on the team, the over-the-top criticism? Am I prepared for the myopic media reaction, and general overreaction to every setback?
 
I'm not so sure.
 
There's no denying that at White Hart Lane the Reds were second best. Then again, Spurs weren't even as good as second best in this fixture last season, and somehow won (in added time), so Liverpool were due a bit of fortune in this fixture.
 
Instead, they encountered what I felt to be poor refereeing, and a deepening injury list at centre-back. The clash between Carragher and Skrtel summed up the day.
 
The positives, if I dare list them, included Lucas in midfield, with an excellent display in the second half, while Benayoun also made a very positive impact as a sub. In goal, Reina made a number of top-class saves.
 
Another big plus was the assurance of Daniel Ayala, who had been left exposed in the Youth Cup final when an older and much more experienced Arsenal midfield overran the Reds' and bore down on him in numbers. At 18 he's still just a baby in terms of a centre-back, but he handled the occasion at White Hart Lane brilliantly.
 
But the biggest plus was Glen Johnson, whose defending was excellent, and whose crossing and running with the ball were first rate. His run to win the penalty showed precisely why he was bought, and highlights what he can add to the side going forward.
 
Not many teams will get points at Spurs, and Liverpool still enjoyed an excellent season last time out despite losing there. However, Stoke provide an immediate chance to improve on last year's haul of points.
 
It's not a must-win game in terms of claiming the title (sorry, but 'must-win', in its most definitive sense, is vastly overused), but it's clearly crucial to getting this season on the right tracks, and to suggest improvements on last season are distinctly possible.

:D
account deleted by request
 
Posts: 20690
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:11 am

Postby bigmick » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:58 pm

Ah right I feel better now. Thank feck we lost :laugh:
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby KOPMATT » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:14 pm

I agree Saint, however I also feel that Pepe was top draw for us yesterday as he kept us in the match.
It wasn't so much the loss that got me down but the way in which we lost first game or not!
Image
User avatar
KOPMATT
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:49 pm
Location: South Wales

Postby Bad Bob » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:05 am

s@int wrote:But am I prepared for the hysteria of others? The caterwauling, the giving up on the team, the over-the-top criticism? Am I prepared for the myopic media reaction, and general overreaction to every setback?
 
I'm not so sure.

Feck me, Tomkins must have an alter-ego on here!  :laugh:
Image
User avatar
Bad Bob
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11269
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:03 pm
Location: Canada

Postby aCe' » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:57 am

if we assume that it takes around 85 points or so to win it this time around, that means that we have to win around 26 games, draw 7 and lose 5 ..

Thing is, when we get a bad result, we need to try and bounce back in the next opportunity and not allow for our dip in form to continue for long... over the past few seasons, most of our bad results came about in concession... Hopefully we start a winning streak against Stoke, and keep it going for a while..

5 losses :

Tottenham (away)
Arsenal (away)
ManUtd (home)
Man City (away)

7 draws:

Chelsea (away)
Arsenal (home)
ManUtd (away)
West Ham (away)
Blackburn (home)
Birmingham (home)
Everton (home)

We should be looking to win the other games and try to get more out of those fixtures perhaps... I can see us having a good start with draws here and there until the side is settled.. from the next 5 fixtures though we should be looking at 4wins and a draw..
User avatar
aCe'
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: ...

Postby bigmick » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:06 am

aCe' wrote:if we assume that it takes around 85 points or so to win it this time around, that means that we have to win around 26 games, draw 7 and lose 5 ..

To be totally honest I'm not overly concerned by the number of points it will take to win it. I know people are saying "it will be tighter this season and teams will lose more matches because the mid-rankers have strengthened", but they say that every year.

The objective at the start of the season is to win the thing, and to do that you've got to get more points than anyone else. I personally couldn't give a feck whether that means you've got to get 90, 85, 80 or 75 points, just so long as we get there. My worry though, is that if you lose touch with a leading GROUP, you are fecked. To win it, you have to be in proper contention pretty much all the way I reckon, particularly if more than one team is ahead of you.

Now I know we had a bit of "I don't fecking believe this place" in the aftermath of Saturdays result, but you get that every year too. If we don't beat Stoke, those same people will be saying that everyone should calm down, but then they always say that s nothing new there.

I've said a couple of times though before the season started that if you get more than six points behind Man Utd AND Chelsea, (having played equal numbers of games obviously), you are gone for all money. I don't care whether it's after 4 games or 24, if theose two teams are both more than 6 ahead of you you ain't coming back IMHO.

Thats the concern for me right now. I have no doubts that at some point this season we will be on fire and look like a very good team again, what me must make sure of is that by the time that happens, we aren't completely out of it. And to answer the inevitable detractors, yes it is legitimate to have such thoughts after one match.
Last edited by bigmick on Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby Owzat » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:46 am

bigmick wrote:To be totally honest I'm not overly concerned by the number of points it will take to win it. I know people are saying "it will be tighter this season and teams will lose more matches because the mid-rankers have strengthened", but they say that every year.

The objective at the start of the season is to win the thing, and to do that you've got to get more points than anyone else. I personally couldn't give a feck whether that means you've got to get 90, 85, 80 or 75 points, just so long as we get there. My worry though, is that if you lose touch with a leading GROUP, you are fecked. To win it, you have to be in proper contention pretty much all the way I reckon, particularly if more than one team is ahead of you.

Perhaps therein lies the problem, Rafa (and others) doesn't appreciate how many wins and points it takes to win the league and thinks "let's see how it goes". Result - five seasons without the league and soon to be six, seven, eight etc

It isn't the stats or counting and calculating, it is preparing yourself for the size of the task. Are we to hope suddenly the standard drops within the top four, or the rest suddenly start beating the mancs and Chelsea and hope for the best?!!?!? It takes 27 wins these days to be there or thereabouts, that is a shedload of wins and we've only managed 25 in the Premiership which isn't enough these days. We seem to have taken the approach of seeing how it goes, but it's better to set our sights on 90 points and end up overshooting than seeing how it goes and then finding out mid February that even winning 10 out of 11 will only get us second - much less and we'd have come third. Or put another way, better to have too many points than not enough.

The harsh reality is we might have missed our chance last season and now not have the squad/players to matter whether we play to a plan or meander along in hope. I bet fergie looks to win every game knowing that he will lose or draw a few, but needs to win 70% + Their ruthlessness against the weaker sides is a great tactic, effected successfully 23 times out of 24 against last season's bottom 12. They had a pretty ordinary record against the better sides, but that didn't stop them. They lost more games than we did for the second season in a row and won the league title.

So unless your bravado bull is a backward way of saying we need to win every game, and trust me it could have been said with a lot less words if that is what you meant, I don't see how we're going to win the league if the people that matter - manager and players - take the same attitude. It comes over less professional, win every game and take the bull by the horns, and more "let's see how it goes chaps, if we win we win"

Oh and we were "in proper contention pretty much all the way", but the bottom line is that once the mancs got their noses in front they weren't going to let us catch up. They did what we can't seem to, won, won, won, won and won some more until they'd won so many in a row they had come from seven points behind to 10 in front. They then lost two, we closed to within four points and they matched our last nine games in terms of wins and points. Simply put, you can't afford to let the mancs get in front, I'd like to plan for X wins in a row but it's easier to go out, try and win every game while accepting some defeats and draws as inevitable, but aim at 27+ wins knowing that come the end of the season that will be right up there - 27 wins, 9 draws and 2 defeats = 90 points and would have won us the title on GD. QED
Never buy from PC World, product quality is poor and their 'customer service' is even poorer
User avatar
Owzat
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 7487
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:55 am
Location: England

Postby Owzat » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:01 am

aCe' wrote:7 draws:

Chelsea (away)
Arsenal (home)
ManUtd (away)
West Ham (away)
Blackburn (home)
Birmingham (home)
Everton (home)

We should be looking to win the other games and try to get more out of those fixtures perhaps... I can see us having a good start with draws here and there until the side is settled.. from the next 5 fixtures though we should be looking at 4wins and a draw..

You're settling for draws at home to brum, rovers and the bitters?!?!?

We should write off Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal away as bonus points if we get any, look to beat all three at home and overall be looking to win 15+ home games which we won't if we accept draws at home to any team.

We've already seen how tough playing away is going to be, two seasons in a row we've lost to a side relegated as well so we need to up our game at Anfield.

CHAMPIONS LAST SEVEN PREMIERSHIP SEASONS (HOME)

08/09 P19 W16 D2 L1 PTS 50
07/08 P19 W17 D1 L1 PTS 52
06/07 P19 W15 D2 L2 PTS 47
05/06 P19 W18 D1 L0 PTS 55
04/05 P19 W14 D5 L0 PTS 47
03/04 P19 W15 D4 L0 PTS 49
02/03 P19 W16 D2 L1 PTS 50

Maximum of two defeats, average of 2.4 draws and 0.7 defeats and an average of 50 points. In that same period our best is P19 W15 D3 L1 PTS 48, we average 5.1 draws, 1.9 defeats and 41 points - NINE behind the Champions' average. Doesn't matter who the Champions are, they have strong home records and add 10+ away wins to it.

If we write off just two of our home games as draws/defeats then it makes it so much harder to win 15+ games. There will be that nasty little side that comes, parks the bus and drives off in it with a point. Without Alonso I fear it may be a few sides, home and away.
Never buy from PC World, product quality is poor and their 'customer service' is even poorer
User avatar
Owzat
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 7487
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:55 am
Location: England

Postby bigmick » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:17 am

Owzat I've already bought into your 27 wins theorum, you don't have to convince me of that at all. I'm simply making the point that unless we manage to actually stay in the hunt for the title in the early stages, we'll get nowhere near. Being in the front group brings pressure, but it also brings oxygen to a team. Would we have won 10 out of our last 11 or whatever it was last season if we weren't challenging? No we wouldn't is my honest assessment, and for me at this stage it's vital we get ourselves INTO the race (obviously by winning as many matches as possible) and then we can go for the wins in sufficient number to win that race.

I'm simply guarding against (and I'm not saying for a second that you're saying this) any notion that as it's only one game, there's little to worry about because we'll have another 37 opportunites to get our wins and it's no worries. My point has consistently been that if you get too far behind BOTH the Mancs and Chelsea (and I think it's any more than 6 points behind the pair) then you will not be able to maintain enough fizz for long enough to get the runs of wins going which you will need.

It's a bit like when you play a mid table team at the end of the season and you are going all out for the title or for Europe. The oposition manager can bang on all he wants about players playing for their future and all that sh!t, the team with motivation and hunger wins 9 times out of 10. If you get too far behind Chelsea and the Mancs, the players won't beleive anymore and before you know it six points becomes 12 and you're competing with Man City for fourth. Then of course the motivation and passion returns meaning you get a run together, but nowhere near 27 of the feckers.

Our target for now should be to beat Stoke. 1-0 will do, but we pretty nearly MUST win it. From there we build a platform, win AT LEAST four out of the next five and we'll be well in it. Draw against Stoke though, and anything less than five wins on the bounce in the next five could put us in all sorts of trouble. Five or six points behind Chelsea when we play them would mean a defeat could almost be a mortal blow, before the things even started.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby Homebooby » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:45 am

bigmick wrote:Ah right I feel better now. Thank feck we lost :laugh:

So does that mean that Spurs will be relegated this year?
Homebooby
 
Posts: 1071
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:43 pm

Postby aCe' » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:12 am

good stuff... yea agree with Owzat... in theory we should be setting out to do just that.. dont think we have the manager or players to apply that on the pitch though... 67mins to make a sub regardless of the scoreline ... i mean ffs come on now... Keep Lucas and Mascherano... "to keep the shape" ... i mean if the fcking shape aint fcking working... why on earth would you want to keep it... The Spurs game was written off as a one off by many... hope its true because the first half showed Benitez going back to his over ANALytical mentality of oppressing our attacking talent in favor of defensive solitude.. We didnt want the win enough, and they made us pay for it... expect more of that unless Benitez goes back to the attacking football we saw towards the end of last year...

Lets start it off with a win against Stoke... send out a message and let other teams know that we wont be playing for draws anymore...
User avatar
aCe'
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 6218
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:47 pm
Location: ...

Postby Sabre » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:31 am

Spurs game was written off as a one off by many...


No, I don't think it was a one off, I think that we deservedly lost and there were several reasons for it.

I started watching the match very worried because of the comments I had read here. Yesteryear we got some dissapointing draws because of a reason, and when there are more negative reasons a defeat can perfectly come (especially when the opposition do a good work like Tottenham)

The incident of the min 16 in which Skrtel and Carraguer clashed together and Carraguer was patched was a sign of how the CB are still in the preseason. That's a situation that it's a lot harder to behold later in the season, Skrtel was the one who had to head that ball because he was doing the cover and facing the ball, and that kind of lack of coordination won't happen soon.

I can't blame Carra or Skrtel of being still in preseason, as IMHO we played San Jose and Ayala too much in the preseason. It's ok to test the youngsters to decide whether they're going to remain in the first team, but I think we should have played our starting eleven CB in the last two games of the preseason.

If to that coordination, you add a poor game of Babel, a below his standards Kuyt, and a still rusty Torres, then you have most of the reasons which explain our defeat. When you have doubts in the back four those are soone extended elsewhere.

So, I trust this team, and while I think we need to replace Hyypia  I don't consider Carra and Skrtel cráp suddenly. Rafa should have perhaps tuned the team better this preseason. No panic here, but certainly it's not good to have pressure over us from the first week, we can't afford not to win on wednesday.
Last edited by Sabre on Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
SOS member #1499

Drummerphil, never forgotten.
User avatar
Sabre
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 13178
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:10 am
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Postby Sean » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:03 am

Last season we stuttered to a draw against Villa on the opening day of the season and were playing catch up thereafter.  I know i'm going to get slated for suggesting you don't lose the league on the opening day but fact is I saw enough against Spurs to see that we just don't learn and we won't win the league.  I despise Man Utd but gotta admire Fergie, he knows what it takes to win the premiership and keeps repeating the formula.  The thing is there is no secret or mystery to it.  From the first minute against Birmingham they pushed on at pace and were relentless until they scored.  Its that intensity and desire to secure three points rather than settle for a draw that will win them the title again this year.
Every Single Ball
User avatar
Sean
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:27 am
Location: Cork, Ireland

Postby Bad Bob » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:52 am

Sabre wrote:but I think we should have played our starting eleven CB in the last two games of the preseason.

When did Skrtel get hurt though, mate?  I know Agger wasn't available for the tailend of the preseason and I'm pretty sure Skrtel missed a couple as well.  That's why we were sweating on his fitness before the Spurs match (as we were with Carra).
Image
User avatar
Bad Bob
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11269
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:03 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Sabre » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:14 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Sabre wrote:but I think we should have played our starting eleven CB in the last two games of the preseason.

When did Skrtel get hurt though, mate?  I know Agger wasn't available for the tailend of the preseason and I'm pretty sure Skrtel missed a couple as well.  That's why we were sweating on his fitness before the Spurs match (as we were with Carra).

Ah, my mistake then, thank you for the correction. To be honest I don't pay 10% of the attention to the team during preseason.

Anyhow, for me we're still some games away of functioning like the football machine we know to be, with and without Alonso.
Image
SOS member #1499

Drummerphil, never forgotten.
User avatar
Sabre
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 13178
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:10 am
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

PreviousNext

Return to Liverpool FC - General Discussion

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 143 guests