Liverpool FC Forum

[Effes]

Buying Keane has meant Rafa has jibbed the 4-2-3-1 from last season.

Now I know some people on here have said it doesn't matter whether you play 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 etc
but I think that's bollox.
Fact is: When we changed to 4-2-3-1 last season , pushing Gerrard into a more advanced role
and Torres on his own up front, we played much better football.

Who would I play against Man U, and formation?

To be honest I haven't got a feckin clue

Forget the goalie and back four for now.
Ive just typed out a couple of formations and I can see faults in both.

I tried 4-2-3-1:               - and 4-4-2

      Xabi    Masch            -  Gerrard  Xabi Masch  Riera(?)   
Keane                Riera           
           Gerrard                -       Keane    Torres
   
            Torres
--------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure which I prefer.

Buying Keane has us stuck between 2 stools.

[Effes]

Reina

Arbeloa  Carra  Skrtel  Dossena/Aurelio

Gerrard  Masch  Xabi   Riera

Torres   Keane

For some reason, I doubt Rafa will play this team much

[woof woof !]

Reina

Arbeloa  Carra  Skrtel  Dossena/Aurelio

Gerrard  Masch  Xabi   Riera

Torres   Keane

For some reason, I doubt Rafa will play this team much

preferred your shout (different thread) for Babel right and Riera left.

with two up front Rafa would need to choose between Kuyt and Keane to partner Torres and Alonso Mascherano to partner Gerrard.

With just Torres up front Rafa could put out a midfield 5 of


.                          Mascherano             

. Babel         Gerrard           Alonso        Riera

[metalhead]

Reina

Arbeloa  Carra  Skrtel  Dossena/Aurelio

Gerrard  Masch  Xabi   Riera

Torres   Keane

For some reason, I doubt Rafa will play this team much

Agreed, this is our best line up.

If Rafa should tell Gerrard ''shut up, your playing on the right this season''.

keep masch-alonso midfield partnership, gerrard on the right and riera on the left, definetly a class midfield.

[Effes]

Reina

Arbeloa  Carra  Skrtel  Dossena/Aurelio

Gerrard  Masch  Xabi   Riera

Torres   Keane

For some reason, I doubt Rafa will play this team much

preferred your shout (different thread) for Babel right and Riera left.

with two up front Rafa would need to choose between Kuyt and Keane to partner Torres and Alonso Mascherano to partner Gerrard.

With just Torres up front Rafa could put out a midfield 5 of


.                          Mascherano             

. Babel         Gerrard           Alonso        Riera

Yea, the one in the other thread is what I can see Rafa doing.

Dont think he'll play Gerrard wide right much, if at all.

[Fowler_E7]

Reina

Arbeloa  Carra  Skrtel  Dossena/Aurelio

Gerrard  Masch  Xabi   Riera

Torres   Keane

For some reason, I doubt Rafa will play this team much

Agreed, this is our best line up.

If Rafa should tell Gerrard ''shut up, your playing on the right this season''.

keep masch-alonso midfield partnership, gerrard on the right and riera on the left, definetly a class midfield.

agreed

[Toffeehater]

Gerrard plays best when he's in the middle of the park . His bombing runs forward , he's had one good season on the right and thats about it , whereas he's been a consistent performer when playing in the middle . Masch and xabi partnership was effective for one game , against manure and some people are already creaming themselves , well i clearly fail to see why should we play masch and xabi in a 4-4-2 with gerrard on the right , last season when gerrard was paired with xabi after he returned from his injury , we were average , you could see that gerrard preferred being paired with masch who would hold the defense when gerrard goes bombing forward . As for plating stevie on the right ? , well he's not a natural winger , does not have many tricks like riera or babel but would be a step up from kuyt but the main problem is he drifts too far away from the right and back into the middle .

This would be the team i'll choose depending on Formation: 4-5-1

Reina

Carragher            Agger            Skrtel               Dossena/Aurelio


                        Masch            Xabi

Babel/Kuyt                                                    Riera/Babel/Yossi

                                  Gerrard


                                  Torres/Keane

4-4-2:

Reina


Carragher                Agger                    Skrtel              Dossena/Aurelio



Babel/Kuyt              Gerrard                  Masch              Riera



                            Torres                   Keane

If Xabi does regain in form than we can talk about switching the formation to accommodate both him and masch in the middle if not stick with gerrard in the middle unless we're playing a 4-5-1 .

[Bad Bob]

Gerrard plays best when he's in the middle of the park . His bombing runs forward , he's had one good season on the right and thats about it , whereas he's been a consistent performer when playing in the middle . Masch and xabi partnership was effective for one game , against manure and some people are already creaming themselves , well i clearly fail to see why should we play masch and xabi in a 4-4-2 with gerrard on the right , last season when gerrard was paired with xabi after he returned from his injury , we were average , you could see that gerrard preferred being paired with masch who would hold the defense when gerrard goes bombing forward . As for plating stevie on the right ? , well he's not a natural winger , does not have many tricks like riera or babel but would be a step up from kuyt but the main problem is he drifts too far away from the right and back into the middle .

This would be the team i'll choose depending on Formation: 4-5-1

Reina

Carragher            Agger            Skrtel               Dossena/Aurelio


                        Masch            Xabi

Babel/Kuyt                                                    Riera/Babel/Yossi

                                  Gerrard


                                  Torres/Keane

4-4-2:

Reina


Carragher                Agger                    Skrtel              Dossena/Aurelio



Babel/Kuyt              Gerrard                  Masch              Riera



                            Torres                   Keane

If Xabi does regain in form than we can talk about switching the formation to accommodate both him and masch in the middle if not stick with gerrard in the middle unless we're playing a 4-5-1 .

Some interesting points, mate, but I don't think all of it's as clear cut as you make out.  Gerrard has done fantastically well for us in the past at RM and I don't think there's anything preventing him from doing so again, besides his own attitude.  I'm not necessarily advocating that he move out there, myself, but I do think it's not something that can easily be waved away.

As for the idea that "you could see" that Gerrard preferred playing with Masch, I wonder exactly what it was that you saw that makes you so certain?  I've seen Gerrard play exceptionally well with both Masch and Alonso so I don't buy this idea that he can't play with one or the other.  All three are quality footballers and the captain's something extra special...I think we'll get near enough near the best out of him whether we partner him with Masch or Alonso in the middle--he's that good.

Next, can we do away with this notion that Masch just sits in front of the defense and allows others to bomb forward?  Like Sissoko before him, he spends half his time in the opposition half.  We saw it with the second goal yesterday, we saw it with the cross he whipped in that Keane should have turned in, we saw it with a few surging runs etc.  He likes to get forward as well.  Alonso does far more sitting in front of the defense than Masch ever has.  So, if it's a matter of having a partner that will sit deep and shield the back four while Gerrard bombs forward, Alonso might actually be the safer bet.  I don't think that's what we necessarily need, though.  Stu's point about the CMs working in tandem is a good one -- one gets forward while the other sits back and vice versa.  If that's the way we want to play in a 4-4-2, then it should be Gerrard and Masch.

And, finally, you spend all this time talking about how Gerrard's best position is in the middle and that, while he can do a job on the flank, we'd be wasting some of his talent by shifting him wide...and then you go and suggest we should be playing Carragher at RB!!!   I know you don't rate Arbeloa, mate, but we need a fullback who's prepared to overlap and get in crosses on a consistent basis and that isn't Carragher's forte (despite whipping in a couple of fantastic crosses during his brief RB cameos last season).  Besides, we lose all of his defense marshalling capabilities if we play him at fullback.  Finally, I'm not convinced that a Skrtel/Agger CB pairing would have the experience and nous to maintain our status as near enough the stingiest defense in the league.  No, for me, Carragher has to stay at CB and that means sticking with Arbeloa for the foreseeable.

[andy_g]

In fact, fookit, let's simply pick the XI on who we paid most for

GK Reina £6m
LB Dossena £7m
CB Skrtel £6m
CB Agger £5.8m
RB Finnan £3.5m
LM Babel £11.5m
CM Alonso £10.5m
CM Mascherano £18.6m
RM Kuyt £10m
CF Torres £21m
CF Keane £20.3m

you know what..? that's not a bad team, that.

its not bad, but you cant leave out gerrard and carra

is there a written law that says that? is the team incapable of functioning without them?

well they are two out of 3 best players in the team so its only logical to play them isnt it.

why you being like that towards me anyway i only said what i believe is right no need to be all sarcastic on me

I mean without them durin the weekend we wouldnt have gotten a point out of that game so i dont know where your coming from there

the title of the thread is "Our very best eleven" so im giving you what i believe would be our best 11 not saying the team cannot play without gerrard or carragher.

idiot

hang on a minute. where's the bit where i had a go at you? where am i being sarcastic? i genuinely don't believe that it has to be set in stone that we have to play gerrard and carragher. we beat the mancs without gerrard yesterday and we have good back up for carragher. the team posted there without them that i first commented on is, on paper, good enough to beat pretty much anyone.

don't be so fukkin sensitive.

[Toffeehater]

Gerrard plays best when he's in the middle of the park . His bombing runs forward , he's had one good season on the right and thats about it , whereas he's been a consistent performer when playing in the middle . Masch and xabi partnership was effective for one game , against manure and some people are already creaming themselves , well i clearly fail to see why should we play masch and xabi in a 4-4-2 with gerrard on the right , last season when gerrard was paired with xabi after he returned from his injury , we were average , you could see that gerrard preferred being paired with masch who would hold the defense when gerrard goes bombing forward . As for plating stevie on the right ? , well he's not a natural winger , does not have many tricks like riera or babel but would be a step up from kuyt but the main problem is he drifts too far away from the right and back into the middle .

This would be the team i'll choose depending on Formation: 4-5-1

Reina

Carragher            Agger            Skrtel               Dossena/Aurelio


                        Masch            Xabi

Babel/Kuyt                                                    Riera/Babel/Yossi

                                  Gerrard


                                  Torres/Keane

4-4-2:

Reina


Carragher                Agger                    Skrtel              Dossena/Aurelio



Babel/Kuyt              Gerrard                  Masch              Riera



                            Torres                   Keane

If Xabi does regain in form than we can talk about switching the formation to accommodate both him and masch in the middle if not stick with gerrard in the middle unless we're playing a 4-5-1 .

Some interesting points, mate, but I don't think all of it's as clear cut as you make out.  Gerrard has done fantastically well for us in the past at RM and I don't think there's anything preventing him from doing so again, besides his own attitude.  I'm not necessarily advocating that he move out there, myself, but I do think it's not something that can easily be waved away.

As for the idea that "you could see" that Gerrard preferred playing with Masch, I wonder exactly what it was that you saw that makes you so certain?  I've seen Gerrard play exceptionally well with both Masch and Alonso so I don't buy this idea that he can't play with one or the other.  All three are quality footballers and the captain's something extra special...I think we'll get near enough near the best out of him whether we partner him with Masch or Alonso in the middle--he's that good.

Next, can we do away with this notion that Masch just sits in front of the defense and allows others to bomb forward?  Like Sissoko before him, he spends half his time in the opposition half.  We saw it with the second goal yesterday, we saw it with the cross he whipped in that Keane should have turned in, we saw it with a few surging runs etc.  He likes to get forward as well.  Alonso does far more sitting in front of the defense than Masch ever has.  So, if it's a matter of having a partner that will sit deep and shield the back four while Gerrard bombs forward, Alonso might actually be the safer bet.  I don't think that's what we necessarily need, though.  Stu's point about the CMs working in tandem is a good one -- one gets forward while the other sits back and vice versa.  If that's the way we want to play in a 4-4-2, then it should be Gerrard and Masch.

And, finally, you spend all this time talking about how Gerrard's best position is in the middle and that, while he can do a job on the flank, we'd be wasting some of his talent by shifting him wide...and then you go and suggest we should be playing Carragher at RB!!!   I know you don't rate Arbeloa, mate, but we need a fullback who's prepared to overlap and get in crosses on a consistent basis and that isn't Carragher's forte (despite whipping in a couple of fantastic crosses during his brief RB cameos last season).  Besides, we lose all of his defense marshalling capabilities if we play him at fullback.  Finally, I'm not convinced that a Skrtel/Agger CB pairing would have the experience and nous to maintain our status as near enough the stingiest defense in the league.  No, for me, Carragher has to stay at CB and that means sticking with Arbeloa for the foreseeable.

Firstly to clarify on the gerrad being played on the right yes , he's done fantastic there , one season , a couple of times in some other games , but stevie has cleary stated that he does not like playing there and like i have said he tends to drift back into the middle .


As for the good performances part , yes he has had good performances with both before masch came into the picture but i can't rmb which game it was but xabi was out for quite some time last season and when he came back , you could see that gerrard and him were not clicking in the same way they were before , Xabi is good player yes , but he's very inconsistent , he played well yesterday but was pretty much poor in the last 2 games , does well for spain almost everytime but 75% of the time , does not perform that well for us , bar his first season .


As for masch , yes he does bomb forward and thank god he does or we would not have scored that goal yesterday but he runs back and defends whenever we loss the ball , or he's played the ball on already . He holds the defense better than anyone we have , xabi is NOT a defensive midfielder , he's a centre midfielder like stevie . Masch is also fast and he's strong and tackling is superb , maybe not as good as makele or gattuso but he's getting there and he's still young . Alonso doing a better job at defending not a chance mate , he's not the greatest tackler and was at fault for the goal boro scored , ad should have closed down mido 2 games ago . Masch is also  MORE CONSISTENT and better in the defending department too , the only thing he lacks is good passing that xabi does have .


As for the right back issue , carragher is probably the best defender we have in the squad , also the most versatile , yes he's best position is center back but he's done great playing at right back , gotten forward alot when played there and if you saw against boro he got forward even though he was playing CB . Agger and Skrtel are 2 young defenders and i think we need to play all 3 , if i am not wrong skrtel can play anywhere across the back 4 as well? As for arbeloa getting forward and putting in good crosses , well that does not happen often enough , he rarely overlaps as opposed to the left side of aurelio and dossena with babel and riera . Before agger was injured , he was immense , than skrtel came into the picture and now is firmly favourite over him , the only way agger and get back to he's best is by him playing matches and i hope to see him start against stoke next week , maybe even come on as a sub in midweek

[woof woof !]

FU'CKS SAKE ! GERRARD ON THE RIGHT !

I'm no footy expert, much like 99.9% of the people that post in here , however when every expert that's ever played the game at the highest level makes comments such as

"As an opposition manager if I see a teamsheet with Gerrard chalked in as wide right or left I'm already thinking "thankyou god"  "

Now , I don't want to dismiss all you "experts" in here , who knows, maybe some of you have played and or managed at the highest level, in which case perhaps you can explain to me why almost without exception other players and managers at the highest levels insist that Gerrards best position is CM and that moving him elsewhere is in fact reducing his impact and is a boost for the opposition ?

[Effes]

Now , I don't want to dismiss all you "experts" in here , who knows, maybe some of you have played and or managed at the highest level, in which case perhaps you can explain to me why almost without exception other players and managers at the highest levels insist that Gerrards best position is CM and that moving him elsewhere is in fact reducing his impact and is a boost for the opposition ?

Woof, if I had my way he would play CM if we had a very good wide man/winger on the right.

For me, we can put Kuyt, Gerrard or Babel there at the moment (Forget Pennant
for now - if he's on form he can be good).

I don't think people are saying play him there always - but it has got to be an option.

Surely his goals scored in 2005/6 is an indication of his impact - AND we did get our highest points total that year.

[maypaxvobiscum]

this gerrard debate got me thinking
1) how many times did we win with him in the centre and with him on the right?
2) how many goals did we score when he was on the right?
3) how much more of an attacking threat are we?
4) is the really best in CM? cos i personally dont think so as i feel he is hindering alonso's game.

[Toffeehater]

this gerrard debate got me thinking
1) how many times did we win with him in the centre and with him on the right?
2) how many goals did we score when he was on the right?
3) how much more of an attacking threat are we?
4) is the really best in CM? cos i personally dont think so as i feel he is hindering alonso's game.

1) Can't be used to judge anything as he has played in the middle more often , you could base the % if he has played equal games in both positions

2) Again can't tell you that unless someone can find the stats

3) Well if gerrard was on the right and we had xabi and alonso in the middle we're not really an attacking threat now are we .
 
4)First season they both played in the middle and alonso was still superb? How is gerrard playing in the middle affecting alonso's game now? Last season he was playing as a 2nd striker in the 4-5-1 and still alonso was not performing , i don't think you have a valid point there

[dawson99]

there is no ideal 11. it all depends on who we are playing. Certain teams have different sized pitches, and ver different players. Playing at home to stoke wed playb a different teasm than when we are away to chelsea. so there is no ideal 11, which is why the squads need to be big.