Liverpool FC Forum

[Fo Dne]

On paper, whats wrong is nothing.

Your (Stu) system of rating players is entirely your own, and good luck to you with that. But I must disagree on a few things....

Centre Half's

Between Agger, Carra and Skrtel we can produce a centre half pairing better than everyone else in the league bar United and Chelsea. However in the same breath, as far as depth is concerned I feel that once you lose Carvalho/Terry or Ferdinand/Vidic they are weaker than us in that we have three of the same level of ability. Hyyppia is better back up to those three than either of the members of the top four have got in my opinion. So for me there is no problem with the bentre halves.

Full Back

I feel we could do with more attacking players, when I look at the quality of Evra, Bosingwa and Cole. However in our system that Rafa employs attacking full backs are not as important as the front four/five are so fluid in their movement that anyone of them can bomb on at anytime. So for me I dont think the full backs create as much of a problem.

Rafa changing costing points

As for the Rafa losing us points through tinkering, he hasnt this season, and I personaly beleive thats cus he is more trusting of the quality of the players he has at his disposal that he doesnt feel the need to. We will see if he does in the future, but I feel he wont.

Richards

He will be a centre half in due course, thats for sure, so as for having hte best right back in the country I am not sure. For me Bosingwa fits that bill.

But its all about opinions . . . .

All of the top three in terms of ability of the centre backs are absoloutely miles ahead of us and I find it quite laughable for a second anyone could even attempt to dispute that.

Vidic and Ferdinand, as much as I hate to admit it are absoloutely light years ahead of anything we have in that department and for anyone to even question that shows a distinct lack of judgement. Carvalho, Gallas and Toure are also alot better than anything we have as individuals. Terry is probably equal. The difference being is Arsenal's pair don't have the balance. Chelsea are also along way ahead of us in this department.

Also, you only have to look at the number of goals our centre halfs get from set peices (not all to do with delivery, its as much to do with attacking the ball) in comparrison.

How you can sit there and even suggest that Dossena and Arbeloa are good enough is quite simply beyond me and smacks of rose tinted glasses. You clearly fail to look beyond your own garden when comparing players. These positions are a major part of the problem and a major part of the reason we lack creativety. The lack of movement, pace, passing ability and ability to actually overlap restricts the team rediculously and for a second I can't believe that someone as supposedly "knowledgable" as you can't see that.

So that leaves the question then, if we're as good as you are presumabley saying we are then why haven't we challenged in years? Whats wrong?

I'm guessing you rate the other players the same as me. If not maybe I'm overating them.

[burjennio]

i think a proper right midfielder is the single biggest hole to plug in the current team right now, as Im sure you all know I rate Dirk Kuyt very highly but he should definately not be playing on the right side of a midfield 4, the tricky bit is that come January its looking for another cash boost from the financially challenged owners anywhere in the region of £12m+ for a top class player then finding 1 who isnt cup-tied in European competition.

cant agree that we need another centre back, for me we have the strength in depth no other side in the division can match in that dept. The only thing i would have concern about would be an injury to Jamie Carragher, and whether the 2 young lads could play together, but then Hypia is still gonna be a great backup if for whatever reason they didnt mesh well.

Arbeloa has become a very good player IMO and if Aurelio could stay fit for more than 3 matches I think we'd have the FB positions nailed down, tho maybe Dossena can show us what Rafa and the scouting staff saw in him sometime soon

[Fo Dne]

or you could put kuyt on the right

no but seriously our weak link is the right flank. Kuyt isnt good enough to play right wing in a four man midfield, for all or his hard work, determination.... he isnt a winger. But i feel gerrard needs to play in the centre. Right back is the worst of the two the right. I think a purchase is needed in January, I wouldn't no who, and id leave it up 2 Rafa anyway.

Like you i have been a little worried by some of his buys... but aggger and skrtle look good, reira is deinately a gr8 asset. he has bought some poor players, but also some class with them three put torres keane reina garcia kuyt lol amongst others. Hopefully he will get it right, but now isnt time for transfer talk it is about what we have now and how we use it.

In terms of formation I would like to garrard playing right in a 451 and play keane as the attacking playmaking midfielder. may be not.... i duno

im just happy at the moment bcos we look like a good unit and i am optimistic about the rest of the season... and i do think we have a chance at the title.

I disagree about rotaion, that is a different thread... we do need to rotate... maybe it goes wrong everynow and then but if we cant realy on the squad players to do the job we cannot simply play our best 11 every game, it isnt possible..

I agree with the rotation, I've never questioned rotation in my life. Only a fool would think these players can play every game to there best level.

What I don't agree with is dropping Torres at home to Birmingham or taking Gerrard and Torres off away to reading when you're losing.

There is a difference in being sensible and plain stupid.

[JoeTerp]

Stu I think Leon was talking about how Agger and Hyypia are better than O'Shea and Evans

[Fo Dne]

Stu I think Leon was talking about how Agger and Hyypia are better than O'Shea and Evans

Which I wouldn't dispute, the depth at centre half is fine. The lack of a top centre half is what worries me.

[Fo Dne]

So basically what you're all saying is we're more than good enough and we'll win the league.

[burjennio]

Which I wouldn't dispute, the depth at centre half is fine. The lack of a top centre half is what worries me.

what do you look for in a top class centre half? do you what a player who'd throw himself in front of a bus for the team ala TerryButcher/Colin Hendry/ or do you want a player always one step ahead of the game like Maldini/Baresi? you probably laugh at the comparisons but both can be pivitol players

[Bad Bob]

Saint's point about mentality is a good one.  We've generally got the players to put most teams in the league to the sword when on song but there are games when we don't come out with the required killer instinct and drop silly points.  In terms of personnel, I think we're close.  I'd like to see a proper RM signed and at least one truly quality attacking fullback.  I'm fairly satisfied with who we've got everywhere else, and that includes CB.  I think Rafa's new approach to team selection helps (it never was the be all and end all but I've long ago acknowledged that it's played a role) and I think we'll get better as a settled first team gets more and more time to play together and establish an understanding.  So, in sum, what's wrong?  Not all that much, TBPH.

[Fo Dne]

Which I wouldn't dispute, the depth at centre half is fine. The lack of a top centre half is what worries me.

what do you look for in a top class centre half? do you what a player who'd throw himself in front of a bus for the team ala TerryButcher/Colin Hendry/ or do you want a player always one step ahead of the game like Maldini/Baresi? you probably laugh at the comparisons but both can be pivitol players

A top centre half, Ferdinand, Woodgate, Cannavaro and Nesta at their best, Hyypia and whoever else.

A top centre back is a top class or world class player. None of ours are even remotely close to this. All of them have major flaws in there game, Carragher's not the quickest and woeful on the ball, Skyrtel is mistake prone and ball watches and lacks the positional sense, he's not to clever on the ball either, Agger's awful in the air, distributes the ball awfully and lacks positional sense and Hyypia's about as quick as a tortoise and has seen a major decline in all of his physical attributes bringing him down to the same level of player as the other lads in the position.

[Fo Dne]

Saint's point about mentality is a good one.  We've generally got the players to put most teams in the league to the sword when on song but there are games when we don't come out with the required killer instinct and drop silly points.  In terms of personnel, I think we're close.  I'd like to see a proper RM signed and at least one truly quality attacking fullback.  I'm fairly satisfied with who we've got everywhere else, and that includes CB.  I think Rafa's new approach to team selection helps (it never was the be all and end all but I've long ago acknowledged that it's played a role) and I think we'll get better as a settled first team gets more and more time to play together and establish an understanding.  So, in sum, what's wrong?  Not all that much, TBPH.

Rubbish. If Gerrard or Torres don't perform we nearly always struggle. We never over power teams like the other sides do and when those two don't turn up we often don't put the game to bed which shows a lack of quality and depth.

For us to challenge this year both players will need to stay fit and firing in nearly every game. We'll tail off eventually, and it will be down to a lack of quality elsewhere in the side.

[Reg]

Are we now saying that Skrtel and Agger arent good enough? If so I disagree.

I´m happy the way we´ve started this season and suggest we wait until jan/feb before saying that something is not working and looking at any changes. Otherwise its change for the sake of it which in another guise is called rotation.

[burjennio]

Fo Dne Posted on Oct. 02 2008,18:24
Quote (burjennio @ Oct. 02 2008,18:15)
Quote
Which I wouldn't dispute, the depth at centre half is fine. The lack of a top centre half is what worries me.


what do you look for in a top class centre half? do you what a player who'd throw himself in front of a bus for the team ala TerryButcher/Colin Hendry/ or do you want a player always one step ahead of the game like Maldini/Baresi? you probably laugh at the comparisons but both can be pivitol players

A top centre half, Ferdinand, Woodgate, Cannavaro and Nesta at their best, Hyypia and whoever else.

A top centre back is a top class or world class player. None of ours are even remotely close to this. All of them have major flaws in there game, Carragher's not the quickest and woeful on the ball, Skyrtel is mistake prone and ball watches and lacks the positional sense, he's not to clever on the ball either, Agger's awful in the air, distributes the ball awfully and lacks positional sense and Hyypia's about as quick as a tortoise and has seen a major decline in all of his physical attributes bringing him down to the same level of player as the other lads in the position.

how is Skertl mistake prone?I would say that he can be reckless and over aggressive sometimes but I think mistake prone is rash. Agger is not bad in the air, unless you are basing your opinion on 1 game where he was dominated by Drogba in the Champions league at Stamford Bridge 2 seasons ago. Hes also our best passer out of the back 4 and the only one who doenst frequently play the "hoof" when theres not a 6 yard ball on.

The positional sense comes with games and experience, centre halfs seem to peak around their late 20s early 30s but I'l agree that Hypias lack of pace became a major problem at key moments last season, not least the CL semi final

you'd rate Woodgate over any of our current defenders? Sorry but noooo chance

[Fo Dne]

Are we now saying that Skrtel and Agger arent good enough? If so I disagree.

I´m happy the way we´ve started this season and suggest we wait until jan/feb before saying that something is not working and looking at any changes. Otherwise its change for the sake of it which in another guise is called rotation.

Yep totally agree mate, lets wait till it starts costing us points and we're out of the title race before we try to do something about it. Totally agree.

[Fo Dne]

Fo Dne Posted on Oct. 02 2008,18:24
Quote (burjennio @ Oct. 02 2008,18:15)
Quote
Which I wouldn't dispute, the depth at centre half is fine. The lack of a top centre half is what worries me.


what do you look for in a top class centre half? do you what a player who'd throw himself in front of a bus for the team ala TerryButcher/Colin Hendry/ or do you want a player always one step ahead of the game like Maldini/Baresi? you probably laugh at the comparisons but both can be pivitol players

A top centre half, Ferdinand, Woodgate, Cannavaro and Nesta at their best, Hyypia and whoever else.

A top centre back is a top class or world class player. None of ours are even remotely close to this. All of them have major flaws in there game, Carragher's not the quickest and woeful on the ball, Skyrtel is mistake prone and ball watches and lacks the positional sense, he's not to clever on the ball either, Agger's awful in the air, distributes the ball awfully and lacks positional sense and Hyypia's about as quick as a tortoise and has seen a major decline in all of his physical attributes bringing him down to the same level of player as the other lads in the position.

how is Skertl mistake prone?I would say that he can be reckless and over aggressive sometimes but I think mistake prone is rash. Agger is not bad in the air, unless you are basing your opinion on 1 game where he was dominated by Drogba in the Champions league at Stamford Bridge 2 seasons ago. Hes also our best passer out of the back 4 and the only one who doenst frequently play the "hoof" when theres not a 6 yard ball on.

The positional sense comes with games and experience, centre halfs seem to peak around their late 20s early 30s but I'l agree that Hypias lack of pace became a major problem at key moments last season, not least the CL semi final

you'd rate Woodgate over any of our current defenders? Sorry but noooo chance

You'd rate any of our centre halves ahead of Woodgate? Love it.

The only question about Woodgate is keeping him fit. Thats it, his ability speaks for itself. He's easily the second best centre half in the country when fit. Which is more often than not over the last few seasons.

[GYBS]

how come a team with so many average cbs have one of the best defensive records over the last 3 years ? !