Liverpool FC Forum

[Fo Dne]

I agree with you there. 

Liked the backhanded Rafa compliments by the way are you changing your opinion

Changing my opinion of what? Am confused...

[GYBS]

where as i think you just spout mindless arrogant shi t most of time on here . But thats just my opinion at the end of the day and quite happy with that opinion . Can call you all sorts if i want too most of which would be true . You can claim this that and the other but at the end of the day its just your opinion . Im happy in the knowledge that i dont know everything and happy to understand there will be plenty of times when i will be wrong just like there will be plenty of times when im right . You on the other hand will always think your right so your fall will be even greater when at the end of the day you are proven wrong . Yes i do ask myself if these people claim to know so much then why dont they prove it instead of mouthing off and claiming they know it all , if not then its just words with no substance or fact . Just a hollow opinion . Yes i do believe ex pros managers players coaches do know more than pretty much anyone on here mainly cause they are in the profession and prove their abilities on a daily basis . Yep they may get it wrong once in a thousand but you and no one on here who is a fan can do any better , if so get out there and do it . Nothing stopping you if you or anyone else is so right about anything , prove it if not its just words and opinion .

[Fo Dne]

Ramos can't speak a word of English mate. So you can't really compare "managerial abilities" so to speak.

1. Ok Rafa was hardly Stephen Fry in his first year but he learnt the language and Ramos didnt.  In fact I will tell you a story.  My Brothers father in law got some tickets for Alonsos Anfield debut as he works a lot in Valencia and knew someone who knew Rafa etc etc so he took my niece and nephew to the game.  He met up with rafa and Alonso and Garcia and in politeness he spoke Spanish to them and Garcia and Alonso looked horrified and insisted on speaking English as the boss had ordered them to, no matter how bad their English was "we are in Liverpool not in Spain no" as they said.  This is a difference between Ramos and Rafa for example.

With regards to Spurs there are problems there with some of the players they have, in terms of compatibility and fitness. Bale, Woodgate, King and Hutton are a good back four. As individual's I'd say all are far better than anything we have, with centre halfs being absoloute stratospheres apart really without there even being a comparrison (in terms of pure ability).

2. Compatibility, fitness surely the job of the manager to improve this and lets see if we can think of a team who are very fit and have a great defensive record.

King and Woodgate are probably better than all of our centre halfs at everything if I'm honest. But due to tactical play, the midfield (or lack of infront of them) fitness issues with them both amoungst other smaller details then they can't really show it consistently. They also (in my opinion) don't quite seem to compliment each other properly as I don't think either of them are complete "sweepers".

3. Tactical play, midfield in front, fitness and small details.  Again a bachanded compliment to Rafa from yourself as he is rather obsessive about these things

A good centre half pairing usually has a dominant player (Hyypia, Ferdinand, Terry, Adams, Pallister) and a sweeper (Henchoz, Vidic, Carvalho, Keown, Bruce). Do me King and Woodgate are much the same player as are our centre halfs and Arsenal's centre halfs. For me the best sweeper in the league is Gallas, the best dominant player is Ferdinand.

4. Agree although I think Carra and Agger are a good example as well but I concede that we will never agree on this

In terms of a better affordable striker than Kuyt I can think of one straight away. Owen. 50 times the player.

5. Agree but with the best striker in the world in our system then Owen would need to do a lot of donkey work on the right hand side and be super fit.  If only we had a player who was super fit and prepared to do all the donkey work for none of the glory,  although that was a bit sarcy and I support Owen returning

You mention Agger and Skyrtel. Both are decent but aren't great defenders. Neither of them are as good an individual as Sami Hyypia at his best and thats what we need to be looking at. They are crackers as back up, they are even good enough to be second centre halfs (for me we have Carra for that)  but they aren't good enough for us to have Carragher next to them or even those two next to each other regularly.

We need someone better as a "first choice". The other thing with Woodgate is I feel his injuries would allow Agger and Skertyl (I spell it differently everytime ) enough playing time to keep them happy and make them feel important parts of the squad.

6. What concerned me at the start of the season was for the first five games or so I had Reina as man of the match and I worry when our goalie is Mom although some might say that making sure he bought a true world class keeper as a priority was an example of that tactical thing you mentioned earlier but I do think that Reina is very important to the defence but it goes back to that compatibilty thing that gives us the defence we have. 

I concede that Rafa made sure he got the defence and midfield sorted first but now needs to turn that small detailed tactical know how to the attack and 5 goals in the last game is a good start I think and without the best striker in the world as well.  Now he has made mistakes of course but all in all without the huge sums for a quick fix I am happy over all.  Now I know we might never agree on this but if you look at your reasons for why Spurs' back 4 hasnt worked then why is it that ours with inferior players has worked.

I hope I used the quote thing right

The gayness of your quoting skills is going to make my reply difficult but I'll have a go.

1. Yep, decent management. I agree, Rafa is obviously 100% more adaptable to moving country than Ramos. I'll have that all day, a better manager though? Can't really say. So stand by what I say.

2. Yes, again I agree. Its upto a manager to find compatible players. That means they don't always have to be the best. For example, I personally think Hyypia has always been better than Carragher asa player. But If I could have two Hyypias or a Hyypia and a Carragher I'd take the latter everytime due to compatibility. Much the same reason I'd take Gerrard and Alonso over Gerrard and Mascherano. Balance is important. For me our balance since losing Hyypia isn't great, its decent but could be better.

3. Never ever questioned the tacitcal movements instructed on the players in the game. I've always said I think Rafa is an exceptional coach with unbelievable tactical knowledge of the game. I believe he can over complicate sometimes and his decisions let him down. IfI was a manager I'd want him to be a coach as I could describe how I wanted my team to play and I know he'd get them to do it. The way our team is shaped, the defensive line, marking systems (open play and set peices) the midfield line and the ability to create width are unbelievable. The only thing I don't agree with is the lack of players getting into the box and lack of risk going forward and sometimes the tempo.

4. Agger's not a dominant centre half. If anything him and Carragher are more alike. They are both the "sweeper" type. I personally don't think Agger and Carragher as a partnership is a top class partnership.

5. Kuyt's beyond a joke now. We wouldn't need to work as hard off the ball if we didn't give it away as much and Owen knows how to drop deep and bring others in.

6. Reina is perfect for the line we play as he's lightening off his line and he often compliments Gerrard, Torres and Alonso with his distribution. Wouldn't swap him for anyone.

7. On the point of ours working, again I refere back to coaching and helping players to understand each others games, strengths, weaknesses, the systems employed, the fitness of the players and the players around them.

For example. A defence can be as good as you like, but put a midfield of Zakora, Jenas, Lennon and Modric infront of it and you're going to get as much protection as a lad in a brothel without any condoms.

Compare to ours with Gerrard, Riera and Alonso who hardly give the ball away then Gerrard, Alonso and occassionally Mascherano who are all excellent at winning it back aswell then you have the answer as to why ours suceeds on many occassions.

Thats not mentioning the keepers and a hole host of other things.

[Fo Dne]

where as i think you just spout mindless arrogant shi t most of time on here . But thats just my opinion at the end of the day and quite happy with that opinion . Can call you all sorts if i want too most of which would be true . You can claim this that and the other but at the end of the day its just your opinion . Im happy in the knowledge that i dont know everything and happy to understand there will be plenty of times when i will be wrong just like there will be plenty of times when im right . You on the other hand will always think your right so your fall will be even greater when at the end of the day you are proven wrong . Yes i do ask myself if these people claim to know so much then why dont they prove it instead of mouthing off and claiming they know it all , if not then its just words with no substance or fact . Just a hollow opinion . Yes i do believe ex pros managers players coaches do know more than pretty much anyone on here mainly cause they are in the profession and prove their abilities on a daily basis . Yep they may get it wrong once in a thousand but you and no one on here who is a fan can do any better , if so get out there and do it . Nothing stopping you if you or anyone else is so right about anything , prove it if not its just words and opinion .

Do you ever get the point in anything?

[taff]

:D I agree with you there. 

Liked the backhanded Rafa compliments by the way are you changing your opinion

Changing my opinion of what? Am confused...

The way you described Spurs needing tactics, fitness and compatibility, it was almost as if you were crying out for Rafa to take over there

[Fo Dne]

:D I agree with you there. 

Liked the backhanded Rafa compliments by the way are you changing your opinion

Changing my opinion of what? Am confused...

The way you described Spurs needing tactics, fitness and compatibility, it was almost as if you were crying out for Rafa to take over there

I am...

[taff]

1. Yep, decent management. I agree, Rafa is obviously 100% more adaptable to moving country than Ramos. I'll have that all day, a better manager though? Can't really say. So stand by what I say.

2. Yes, again I agree. Its upto a manager to find compatible players. That means they don't always have to be the best. For example, I personally think Hyypia has always been better than Carragher asa player. But If I could have two Hyypias or a Hyypia and a Carragher I'd take the latter everytime due to compatibility. Much the same reason I'd take Gerrard and Alonso over Gerrard and Mascherano. Balance is important. For me our balance since losing Hyypia isn't great, its decent but could be better.

3. Never ever questioned the tacitcal movements instructed on the players in the game. I've always said I think Rafa is an exceptional coach with unbelievable tactical knowledge of the game. I believe he can over complicate sometimes and his decisions let him down. IfI was a manager I'd want him to be a coach as I could describe how I wanted my team to play and I know he'd get them to do it. The way our team is shaped, the defensive line, marking systems (open play and set peices) the midfield line and the ability to create width are unbelievable. The only thing I don't agree with is the lack of players getting into the box and lack of risk going forward and sometimes the tempo.

4. Agger's not a dominant centre half. If anything him and Carragher are more alike. They are both the "sweeper" type. I personally don't think Agger and Carragher as a partnership is a top class partnership.

5. Kuyt's beyond a joke now. We wouldn't need to work as hard off the ball if we didn't give it away as much and Owen knows how to drop deep and bring others in.

6. Reina is perfect for the line we play as he's lightening off his line and he often compliments Gerrard, Torres and Alonso with his distribution. Wouldn't swap him for anyone.

7. On the point of ours working, again I refere back to coaching and helping players to understand each others games, strengths, weaknesses, the systems employed, the fitness of the players and the players around them.

For example. A defence can be as good as you like, but put a midfield of Zakora, Jenas, Lennon and Modric infront of it and you're going to get as much protection as a lad in a brothel without any condoms.

Compare to ours with Gerrard, Riera and Alonso who hardly give the ball away then Gerrard, Alonso and occassionally Mascherano who are all excellent at winning it back aswell then you have the answer as to why ours suceeds on many occassions.

Thats not mentioning the keepers and a hole host of other things.

1. Ok I agree as well but I do think that adapting to the country is part of the whole package and at least he was/is preperd to do this and adapt which IMO makes him a better manager.

2. Hypia is a legend and an amazing buy but he is on the way out now and I sincerely think that Agger and Skrtel are up to it

3. Going forward has been a weakness although not as big as some reckon IMO but it still has to improve.  I think the secret here is the fullbacks attacking but that means Mash covers the holes which puts us in the 451 position.  But moving forward I think that Rafa is happy with the defence and the midfield and I expect the final third to be worked on.

4. I think Agger is a class act and can play the ball out excellently leaving Carra in charge of the defensive lines.

5. I like Kuyt and will always remember him fondly but if we had Owen and Keane and Torres then I would sell him and get a really good right hand side winger/midfielder to compete with Benayoun, but maybe not Bullard Im afraid to say nor Simon Davies either  .  In fact I liked Bellamy but there are issues there.  Money is the determination there

6. Reina I agree.  When people talk about the best keeper its as if they are a season or two behind the times as I see him as being in the top three in the world

7. Ok back to Spurs but they have spent a lot and when you compare them to us then surely its hats off to Rafa for building in the correct way.

Something Ive just remembered is an article I read years ago about Italian football where in comparison with the english game they idolise defenders but are happy to change strikers on a yearly basis depending on who is hot or not.  Now I dont advocate that but can see the sense in a way and Rafa is a huge admirer of the Milan of the 90's and you can see that pattern with us.  I do however think now that its job well done with the squad mate and as in Carras book the work gone into defence etc has been outstanding but I do think its now time to concentrate on attack.  Maybe that was the grand plan all along and as much as I like Kuyt if we had a Riera on the right hand side then I would be absolutely delighted going into the new year

[Ian Rush's Right foot]

Our cover is busted.

While Rafa Benitez has been kidney-stoned away from the action, Sammy Lee and Steven Gerrard have defied his orders and turned us into a brilliant team who are brilliant to watch. Benitez must be livid.

Rafa hates to show his hand. That's why he drops players when they hit form, and why he started the Champions League final with Harry Kewell.

It's basic poker. He likes his teams to appear c.rap and be perceived as . Then when the opposition's guard is down, he cashes in.

The plan was going smoothly this season. Wins against Manchester United and Chelsea proved that actually, they are good. Very good. But then Benitez staged some ropy draws against Stoke and Fulham etc.... to make everyone assume we would simply fluff it again this season. Pressure off, you see. Clever.

Now though, Rafa's been rumbled. They could have stuck 10 past Newcastle. We're three points clear, and have got Fernando Torres coming back next month.

Chelsea are struggling, Arsenal are out of it and United have got a must-win game every eight hours until June. The bookies are still buying Benitez's bluff, making us third favourites.

But with Chelsea at United next, Liverpool have another chance to stretch their lead – and bust their cover even further.

So what happens now? Can we still hack it without that comfort blanket of perceived rubbishness?

Will Benitez hobble back into the dugout and start trying to repair the damage? If Jermaine Pennant starts next week, you'll know why...

[sgs]

But criticism comes with its own responsibility; a responsibility to know what you are being critical of. When you say for instance that "even if we win, the selection would still be ridiculous", then one is forced to question what your motivations are, considering that the ultimate objective of ANY selection is to win!

Of course the first aim is to win the game. Nobody ever said any different. The end though in football doesn't always justify the means, we've seen that many times previously with mass rotation. Mass rotate and you might win the match, you might win a few matches, but does it give you the best chance of maximising the squads potential? You might say yes it does, but the evidence of the last five years leads me to believe it doesn't.

Each match doesn't happen in complete isolation to the ones either before it or after it. If it did, there'd be no such thing as "form" for either teams or individuals. Keane may well be able to put the fact he was dropped for the second time after scoring two goals completely out of his head, continue where he left off as it were. Then again, he may not. If he doesn't, in three weeks time when he can't hit a cows erse with a banjo again, the fact that we managed to beat an awful Newcastle team without him wouldn't be a justifaction for leaving him out in my opinion.

I would have been more up for leaving Gerrard out. I didn't particularly mind leaving Alonso or Riera out. Nobody is saying we must play the same team in every single game, but my point about the "ridiculous" selection is, you don't risk your best available striker clicking out of form just when he looks like he's on the verge of finding some. His was the one omission which made no sense to me, and I said so. As I said earlier, the fact that they were so awful coinvinces me even more that he should have played as I think he would have scored a goal, confidence breeds confidence.

IMHO Keane's form is going to be absolutely crucial to our title challenge. I am unconvinced until I see it that we are about to see Torres at his best in the very near future, and Keane remains our only credible fit striker. He has been a poor aquisition so far based on achievement, but now he is looking like finding form we should build him up and let him ride the tidal wave of confidence. For people who have constantly defended mass rotation, keeping players fresh for the "big matches at the end of the season" and the like to see only the immediate result and not consider the bigger picture is strange to me.

We successfully rotated Peter Crouch out of the form of his life, Keane wasn't in that but he was certainly in the best form he has shown at the club so far. If he wasn't injured, to drop him at Newcastle was plain daft in my opinion. The fact we won 5-1 doesn't change that opinion, neither does it make me think that Babel should start every game or that Alonso's best spot is on the bench. The fact we won 5-1 is lovely, we get three points, their team isn't/wasn't very good but it doesn't have any influence on my feelings on the Keane ommission. We didn't need to lose the game for the factors visa vis him to be relevent. 

You asked for my opinion, and this is what I think.

1. You cannot look at Keane's form in isolation from the squad and the team because thats where he draws nourishment from.

2. Our manager's outlook is typically short term- from one game to the other. He builds his squad to reflect different qualities. What happens next is about management of options in finding solutions to the different problems each new opponent presents.

3. The forum is rife with how terrible Newcastle was, but nobody seems to spare a thought to the possibility that it is our approach that made them look this bad. How?

4. Our press play is the best it has been in 4yrs. Its more systemic and persistent than ever. Central to this IMO is the much maligned, and yes, sometimes frustrating Dirk Kuyt. In turn pressing impacts two functions- time/space, and Pshychology.

5. Newcastle is notoriously weak down the center, with team spirit and morale in delicate shape and in the process of being rebuilt under Kinnear.

6. What Benitez and Liverpool did was use pressing tactics from up top, to beat down Newcastle, shred to pieces whatever little confidence Kinnear might have rescued.

7. From such a perspective, nobody was better placed to start centrally than Kuyt. The value of Dirk Kuyt to this team cannot simply be  measured in number of goals scored or even assists.

8. Here in the NBA, obsession with stats has led to figures being kept on number of 'steals' recorded in a game. It would be interesting if anyone could ascertain the number of 'steals' Kuyt had at St James....

[Fo Dne]

1. Ok I agree as well but I do think that adapting to the country is part of the whole package and at least he was/is preperd to do this and adapt which IMO makes him a better manager.

2. Hypia is a legend and an amazing buy but he is on the way out now and I sincerely think that Agger and Skrtel are up to it

3. Going forward has been a weakness although not as big as some reckon IMO but it still has to improve.  I think the secret here is the fullbacks attacking but that means Mash covers the holes which puts us in the 451 position.  But moving forward I think that Rafa is happy with the defence and the midfield and I expect the final third to be worked on.

4. I think Agger is a class act and can play the ball out excellently leaving Carra in charge of the defensive lines.

5. I like Kuyt and will always remember him fondly but if we had Owen and Keane and Torres then I would sell him and get a really good right hand side winger/midfielder to compete with Benayoun, but maybe not Bullard Im afraid to say nor Simon Davies either  .  In fact I liked Bellamy but there are issues there.  Money is the determination there

6. Reina I agree.  When people talk about the best keeper its as if they are a season or two behind the times as I see him as being in the top three in the world

7. Ok back to Spurs but they have spent a lot and when you compare them to us then surely its hats off to Rafa for building in the correct way.

Something Ive just remembered is an article I read years ago about Italian football where in comparison with the english game they idolise defenders but are happy to change strikers on a yearly basis depending on who is hot or not.  Now I dont advocate that but can see the sense in a way and Rafa is a huge admirer of the Milan of the 90's and you can see that pattern with us.  I do however think now that its job well done with the squad mate and as in Carras book the work gone into defence etc has been outstanding but I do think its now time to concentrate on attack.  Maybe that was the grand plan all along and as much as I like Kuyt if we had a Riera on the right hand side then I would be absolutely delighted going into the new year

1. So I have to ask, does that make him better than Ferguson then? Its not all as black and white as that for me.

2. He is on the downwards trail agree, Agger and Skyrtel aren't as good as him in his pomp though. Thats my point, they aren't even close if am honest. Absoloute chasm's apart. I'd still say Sami's better than both now aswell If I'm honest and that worries me. They are good players mate, I'm not saying they aren't, but I think we need better to consistently be up there for years.

3. Maybe but can't be bothered discussing that if am honest. Thats something I need to think about and its to late to be doin that.

4. He's a good player but has his weaknesses. He gets attracted to the ball alot which is the opposite of Skyrtel who ball watches and freezes. Agger's distribution is also very dodgy at times. He's good at dribbling the ball out from the back but his passing isn't as good as Sami's. Its hard to explain, you just see it sometimes. Agger passes a ball to players under pressure and I always thought he was prone to something like that what happened against Wigan earlier in the season.

5. Bullard's a quality player. Kuyt's rubbish. Simple as.

6. Don't know about top three in the world, but he's quality and doubt I'd swap him for anyone, can't be that many better.

7. Spurs are gay But seriously, Rafa has wasted a hell of a lot of money on rubbish. He's bought alot of and sold players he shouldn't have and bought players who are rubbish to replace them.

He's done ok in parts, certain things he's got it very right, certain things very wrong. I'd never ever slag him off for the Morientes signing as I can understand the thought behind it, I'd never class that as a bad signing. He re-signed Robbie Fowler which was a masterstroke, then he seemed to undo alot of great work. He underestimated Robbies contribution when he came back. He built a potentailly class side and dismantled it aswell.

He's wasted money on Kuyt, Babel and others. Theres so many things. At the end of the day, if he can learn from his mistakes and keep improving and win the league this year then fine. If not, he's got to go. My hunch is we'll not win the league this year, we'll blow it down to dodgy team selections costing us stupid points. We'll have the wrong players out of form at the wrong time.

Then this summer United and Chelsea will both strengthen immensely and leave us in there dust again next season.

We are in my opinion still behind Man Utd and Chelsea in terms of ability. We need to win this league now while we have this chance then this summer improve properly and then maybe next year complete the side. Its hard to explain at this time of night.

[taff]

It is late we can continue again in different threads

[Fo Dne]

You asked for my opinion, and this is what I think.

1. You cannot look at Keane's form in isolation from the squad and the team because thats where he draws nourishment from.

2. Our manager's outlook is typically short term- from one game to the other. He builds his squad to reflect different qualities. What happens next is about management of options in finding solutions to the different problems each new opponent presents.

3. The forum is rife with how terrible Newcastle was, but nobody seems to spare a thought to the possibility that it is our approach that made them look this bad. How?

4. Our press play is the best it has been in 4yrs. Its more systemic and persistent than ever. Central to this IMO is the much maligned, and yes, sometimes frustrating Dirk Kuyt. In turn pressing impacts two functions- time/space, and Pshychology.

5. Newcastle is notoriously weak down the center, with team spirit and morale in delicate shape and in the process of being rebuilt under Kinnear.

6. What Benitez and Liverpool did was use pressing tactics from up top, to beat down Newcastle, shred to pieces whatever little confidence Kinnear might have rescued.

7. From such a perspective, nobody was better placed to start centrally than Kuyt. The value of Dirk Kuyt to this team cannot simply be  measured in number of goals scored or even assists.

8. Here in the NBA, obsession with stats has led to figures being kept on number of 'steals' recorded in a game. It would be interesting if anyone could ascertain the number of 'steals' Kuyt had at St James....

1. Some of us think Keane's form is of massive importance to the teams overall quality. Some of us think if we have Torres and Keane on form we'll score lots of goals. Simple that really.

I don't see why we can't hope that Benitez does everything possible to ensure this and why we're so stupid, wrong and such bad supporters because this is what we want.

2. If its one game to the next then why does he continuously change the team instead of picking the best team available to him on the day and take off our best players when games still need to be won etc?

3. We played quite well, the fact is, Newcastle couldn't string two passes together and you can only beat whats infront of you. Make no mistake, we could have played Dossena and Ngog from the start instead of Insua and Kuyt and probably still won they were that bad. It had nothing to do with how we were set up, they were just simply awful.

4. Our pressing of the ball is excellent at times you're correct but don't dare sit there and say that joke of a player is central to it. He doesn't even put a tackle in. Gerrard, Alonso and Keane have been THE major factors in this this season. Gerrard and Alonso more than anyone. Kuyt runs upto players and the closest he gets to tackling is looking at them with his sloth like face. He just watches or commits and gets roasted.

5. They are rubbish.

6. Wow, did you learn that at Uni? No-one who understands the game could even possibly have seen that. I mean, none of us knew that if you press a ball well and pass a ball well you're going to be a half decent side... thats pure genius mate.

7. You're right. It also can't be measured by the amount of times he gives the ball away either. Which is nearly everytime he touches it. Or for that matter the amount of times he messes up the most basic things in the game.

8. Stick to basket ball.

[DanAn]

3. We played quite well, the fact is, Newcastle couldn't string two passes together and you can only beat whats infront of you. Make no mistake, we could have played Dossena and Ngog from the start instead of Insua and Kuyt and probably still won they were that bad. It had nothing to do with how we were set up, they were just simply awful.

4. Our pressing of the ball is excellent at times you're correct but don't dare sit there and say that joke of a player is central to it. He doesn't even put a tackle in. Gerrard, Alonso and Keane have been THE major factors in this this season. Gerrard and Alonso more than anyone. Kuyt runs upto players and the closest he gets to tackling is looking at them with his sloth like face. He just watches or commits and gets roasted.

I got to call you in this one. On Dossena's recent form he would have been skinned half a dozen times by Duff he's that  much of a turkey. Look at what Hull did to the Italian lemon. As for N'gog there is no way he could sustain Kuyt's work rate for 90 minutes. Your kidding yourself if you think that's true.

You say Kuyt doesn't tackle. Bollox he doesn't! He does more than his far share and rarely does he get roasted. Yeah Gerrard and Alonso boss the midfield and that is a major factor in our pressing but Kuyt plays his part and it's a sizable part too.

We win a game 5-1 and the lone stiker is a joke? You sound like a muppet when you make comments like that.

[aCe']

You asked for my opinion, and this is what I think.

1. You cannot look at Keane's form in isolation from the squad and the team because thats where he draws nourishment from.

2. Our manager's outlook is typically short term- from one game to the other. He builds his squad to reflect different qualities. What happens next is about management of options in finding solutions to the different problems each new opponent presents.

3. The forum is rife with how terrible Newcastle was, but nobody seems to spare a thought to the possibility that it is our approach that made them look this bad. How?

4. Our press play is the best it has been in 4yrs. Its more systemic and persistent than ever. Central to this IMO is the much maligned, and yes, sometimes frustrating Dirk Kuyt. In turn pressing impacts two functions- time/space, and Pshychology.

5. Newcastle is notoriously weak down the center, with team spirit and morale in delicate shape and in the process of being rebuilt under Kinnear.

6. What Benitez and Liverpool did was use pressing tactics from up top, to beat down Newcastle, shred to pieces whatever little confidence Kinnear might have rescued.

7. From such a perspective, nobody was better placed to start centrally than Kuyt. The value of Dirk Kuyt to this team cannot simply be  measured in number of goals scored or even assists.

8. Here in the NBA, obsession with stats has led to figures being kept on number of 'steals' recorded in a game. It would be interesting if anyone could ascertain the number of 'steals' Kuyt had at St James....

1. Some of us think Keane's form is of massive importance to the teams overall quality. Some of us think if we have Torres and Keane on form we'll score lots of goals. Simple that really.

I don't see why we can't hope that Benitez does everything possible to ensure this and why we're so stupid, wrong and such bad supporters because this is what we want.

2. If its one game to the next then why does he continuously change the team instead of picking the best team available to him on the day and take off our best players when games still need to be won etc?

3. We played quite well, the fact is, Newcastle couldn't string two passes together and you can only beat whats infront of you. Make no mistake, we could have played Dossena and Ngog from the start instead of Insua and Kuyt and probably still won they were that bad. It had nothing to do with how we were set up, they were just simply awful.

4. Our pressing of the ball is excellent at times you're correct but don't dare sit there and say that joke of a player is central to it. He doesn't even put a tackle in. Gerrard, Alonso and Keane have been THE major factors in this this season. Gerrard and Alonso more than anyone. Kuyt runs upto players and the closest he gets to tackling is looking at them with his sloth like face. He just watches or commits and gets roasted.

5. They are rubbish.

6. Wow, did you learn that at Uni? No-one who understands the game could even possibly have seen that. I mean, none of us knew that if you press a ball well and pass a ball well you're going to be a half decent side... thats pure genius mate.

7. You're right. It also can't be measured by the amount of times he gives the ball away either. Which is nearly everytime he touches it. Or for that matter the amount of times he messes up the most basic things in the game.

8. Stick to basket ball.

[bigmick]

Yes I must confess the comments about the NBA along with the ESPN terminology did make me sit up and take notice as well. Look we've had a couple of goes here, and we're clearly going to differ which is fine. Your initial post though yesterday was unnecessarily out of order, and you've since proven that despite interesting phraseology you don't actually have anything insightful to add. Telling me yesterday that the manager doesn't change the team just to keep players fresh, he also does it to take into account the oppositions strengths and weaknesses is a good example. Do you honestly think that people don't realise that? It's whether or not they agree with the individual decisions and the extent of the changes which is the issue, not whether or not people know why he's doing it.

Now you include "steals" in your pressing of the ball analysis. Look, when you are pressing the football you must do so as a team, and it's really not best done by running around like a headless chicken. In actual fact, one of the reasons I don't like Kuyt up top is because he breaks up defensive patterns all the time when he runs around like a lunatic. He doubles up on players which are already covered and leaves holes. If he plays against good centre halves they simply walk into the spaces he's left behind and draw one of the midfielders in, creating a chain reaction which is hard to recover from. When you press the ball, it's not simply a free for all where everyone runs around a lot, you press certain players in certain areas and encourage the opposition to give it to their worst passers, then you leave him be and let him distribute it. Kuyt too often races in and the fella simply squares it and you're back to point one again. It's more complex than you imply, I'll leave it at that but don't be so abusive, there's no need for it.

Your first point in your list about Keane I don't know what to make of to be honest. You say that his form cannot be looked at in isolation from the team. Precisely what I've been on about. If Keane is playing well, THE TEAM have much more chance of winning football matches. Simple really.

Anyways, done to death this discussion and our little tete a tete. Pressing the ball though, and strikers not being judged by goals and assists? Feck me and then you come on here giving it the big un with me for taking drivel, I swear you couldn't make it up.