Liverpool FC Forum

[Kharhaz]

In fairness, judging by his interviews Sammy is so far up Rafa's @rsehole that any of the players looking for some kind of counterpoint to the managers philosophy are probably not going to get it from the assistant manager.

I said awhile back that what rafa needs and the club was not another yes man but someone who could challenge rafa about decisions. Someone who could say "NO!"

Then as the arguments came in against my suggestion it appeared all I wanted was a rebellion ! 

[redrover]

cheers jbg i originally signed up to this mb after reading your original message and i remember sending you a pm saying you put into words everything i had been thinking. you were spot on then and your spot on now. unfortunately alot of people on here just cant see the woods for the trees but its people like you that give me hope that things may change and we will have brighter days ahead.

[Fowler_E7]

One year on and I don't think Rafa's done over-much to rubbish any of JBG's indictments.  Indeed, the only perceivable area he's changed relates to mass rotation.  In the area of transfers and man-management, JBG's comments are even more prescient 12 months later than they were at the time, and that's a worry.  And then, of course, there's the idea that Rafa over-complicates things rather than letting the lads loose to play their game.  Subbing a very-much-in-goal-scoring-form Gerrard off seconds after conceding a late equalizer is further evidence in favour of the prosecution, I'm afraid.

So what does it all mean?  Well, that's a bit murkier.  JBG was writing at a time, last year, before we switched the formation round and went on a fantastic CL run.  Things looked a might rosier once that happened and I wouldn't bet against us doing the same sort of thing this season.  But, will it be enough to keep us in the league race and, crucially, will it be enough to keep Rafa in a job?  That's a harder call to make and I'm certainly not going to prejudge just yet.  What I will say is that my faith in Rafa has been shaken in the past month in a way I didn't predict would happen.  Serious doubts have started to creep in about whether he's the man to lead forward after this season.  I'll keep faith until May and see how things shake out but I can't say I'm particularly optimistic at this stage.  Perhaps, one year on, my head has finally worn my heart down?

Exactly what ive been thinking myself. Faith in the manager is on a knifes edge it seems with most supporters at the moment it seems. The Positive is that the season isnt finished yet, and hopefully just hopefully Rafa can get his act together and save our season. But at the moment i have serious doubts if this team will amount to anything this season.

[Sabre]

I'll keep faith until May and see how things shake out but I can't say I'm particularly optimistic at this stage.  Perhaps, one year on, my head has finally worn my heart down?

I think I know you well enough to tell you this without you getting angry.

Bob, you don't have to find an explanation to explain why you have changed your mind. That things, losing faith progresively, are natural.

I would disagree that the Bad Bob of two years ago was ruled by the heart and not the head, for several reasons:

* Not that you were talking with the hand in the chest all these years. You always tried to check the facts, and the match info thread is a prove of that search for empirical facts.

* We're always influenced by feelings, if we're not influenced by the love we have to Rafa, we're influenced by the frustration of being behind the first position in the table, or simply influenced by how badly we want to see Liverpool winning, and how frustrating is to see them drawing. Be completely sure those feelings are not present at all within you aswell. 


My point? By all means, do change your opinion. It's all right. But don't imply your old position was governed by heart. It may not be true, and it "offends" my position a bit. Meaning Bob, that I too have feelings and temptations to try out another manager. Think of it, less discussions here, less moaning in the press, less stupid comments of Gray talking about rotation and zonal marking. At some point you really feel a temptation to change. But my position is not ruled by the heart, but because I think that a change *could* be very harmful, while I still think we have progressed. So I woudn't change a progress, slow or not, for a unknown gamble.

How large is your patience you may ask? not as big as you think. In my local club, in which I have seen 30 managers in a decade  , I normally lose the faith in a manager when I see decay, players wanting to leave, and continuous failure achieving the goals. None of which have appeared yet under Rafa, unless you consider that Liverpool had a squad to win the league in the second season of Rafa.

[stmichael]

I'll keep faith until May and see how things shake out but I can't say I'm particularly optimistic at this stage.  Perhaps, one year on, my head has finally worn my heart down?

I think I know you well enough to tell you this without you getting angry.

Bob, you don't have to find an explanation to explain why you have changed your mind. That things, losing faith progresively, are natural.

I would disagree that the Bad Bob of two years ago was ruled by the heart and not the head, for several reasons:

* Not that you were talking with the hand in the chest all these years. You always tried to check the facts, and the match info thread is a prove of that search for empirical facts.

* We're always influenced by feelings, if we're not influenced by the love we have to Rafa, we're influenced by the frustration of being behind the first position in the table, or simply influenced by how badly we want to see Liverpool winning, and how frustrating is to see them drawing. Be completely sure those feelings are not present at all within you aswell. 


My point? By all means, do change your opinion. It's all right. But don't imply your old position was governed by heart. It may not be true, and it "offends" my position a bit. Meaning Bob, that I too have feelings and temptations to try out another manager. Think of it, less discussions here, less moaning in the press, less stupid comments of Gray talking about rotation and zonal marking. At some point you really feel a temptation to change. But my position is not ruled by the heart, but because I think that a change *could* be very harmful, while I still think we have progressed. So I woudn't change a progress, slow or not, for a unknown gamble.

How large is your patience you may ask? not as big as you think. In my local club, in which I have seen 30 managers in a decade  , I normally lose the faith in a manager when I see decay, players wanting to leave, and continuous failure achieving the goals. None of which have appeared yet under Rafa, unless you consider that Liverpool had a squad to win the league in the second season of Rafa.

Nobody is going to agree with everything a manager does or says, that's football. Every manager in the history of football is criticised it makes it interesting and everyone has their own opinions on team selections and substitutions especially when the result hasn't gone our way.

The problem comes with a poor run of results in games we feel should have won the crticism can grow a little out of proportion.
Every decision or team selection and substitution is deemed wrong or negative seemingly "proved" by hindsight. Any positives are forgotten and ignored due to the negative focus.
I would to be in the dock with some people on these boards in the jury as Rafa is being convicted on purely circumstantial evidence.

If these games were replayed a number of times there would be a number of different results. It does not all rest on the managerial decisions. Some responsibility is the managers, some the players and some the opposition on the day. Football is a game and therefore involves a large element of chance, and choas so that is also a factor.
To say as some would suggest it is all the fault of the manager is naive at best and forget when it suits them that he had a hand in getting the team to the position it was before the disappointing run.

All of his decisions including his outspoken comments(right or wrong) would have all been seen in a completely different light had our results been better. Unfortunately as it happens they turned into a rod for his own back.

I would just like people to stay a little more level headed and not go off the deep end.

[Sabre]

That's pretty much true St Michael.

And to be fair and see the whole picture, I also have to admit that when we were first, not everything was perfect, and posters like Mick were given stick for saying so.

[GYBS]

Good analysis there St Micheal - cant argue with any of that especially the last bit with the over reaction - works both way i think with the way people were when we were doing well at the top of the table and going over board about winning titles etc when there was still plenty to play and in fairness i think mick was one of the ones who kept pointing it out .

[Judge]

for obvious reasons

only the unintelligent will NOT know why

[account deleted by request]

for obvious reasons

only the unintelligent will NOT know why

Shhhhhhh Judge or you may be

[Judge]

would be a bit harsh

this is one of the best threads ever

[bigmick]

Strange about the poll on the manager being closed. I didn't see a single piece of bad language, didn't see a smidge of abuse, everyone was respectful and the like. It was a bit like when the Robbie Keane thread was locked and you could say the same things then.

It's almost as if when the thread takes on a direction which makes it uncomfortable for certain posters, they ask for threads to be locked. Almost like a forum censorship without over dramatising it I really can't see the problem with a poll which included the option of "others" in discussing one of the "others". It didn't get locked when Paul Jewell came under discussion, so why would it when someone else did. Very strange.

[Igor Zidane]

Strange about the poll on the manager being closed. I didn't see a single piece of bad language, didn't see a smidge of abuse, everyone was respectful and the like. It was a bit like when the Robbie Keane thread was locked and you could say the same things then.

It's almost as if when the thread takes on a direction which makes it uncomfortable for certain posters, they ask for threads to be locked. Almost like a forum censorship without over dramatising it I really can't see the problem with a poll which included the option of "others" in discussing one of the "others". It didn't get locked when Paul Jewell came under discussion, so why would it when someone else did. Very strange.

all your fault mick for saying the special one should be on the list ,gybs spat his dummy out

[GYBS]

If anyone wants to know why i asked for it to be closed they are more than welcome to pm me .

[Igor Zidane]

If anyone wants to know why i asked for it to be closed they are more than welcome to pm me .

We don't need to know mate , it was a daft pole anyway . You've got to admit that.

[GYBS]

well the idea was right but a lot of people took it the wrong way and then someone latched onto the fact i forgot someone (which was a genuine mistake) and then was like a broken record about it constantly going on and on and on and on about it then the sheep fllowed behind so i asked for it to be closed.