Liverpool FC Forum

[Thinkpad]

People keep on saying, morientes need better service. Currently not scoring because bad service. How come than the same logic doesn't apply to other non-performing strikers?

The same logic does apply , all strikers need service ,however the type of service required depends on the strikers style and strengths .e.g the best service for Cisse is a thru ball behind a defence that has suffucient space behind them to allowi cisse to run onto the ball and carry it into the area .
players like Morientes and Crouch on the other hand don't have Cisses lightening pace but do possess excellent arial ability ,therefore the best service for them is a good cross as they break into the area .
And the best service for Baros is the next train that leaves lime street station .
But I'm guessing you don't agree with that ?   

Yep.. Different type of service is still service. Does the other type of service you mentioned is abundant and in great quality? I think not. Seriously, all strikers benefit from great crosses. Great crosses is what we don't have the last time. May have better options now, but my opinion we are still lacking the quality found in other top teams. But that will be addressed from what I see, which is great.

Baros can leave as long as we have definitive substitute. Not substitute that came with a reputation but has yet to perform. What will happen if we sell him now with no additional cover? And Cisse, Morrientes and Gang were not able to score? Can we actually win games without scoring?? Keep him until December, when the team has gelled and the true capability of all the players in the premiership are better understood. It is simply too early and too risky. Baros can leave then... He has outlived his usefulness to Liverpool by then.

[Reinas No.1 Fan]

Morientes will be a decent player i cant see him breaking 20 goals but he will score. He scored 2 yesterday but his second was a goaly error but his first was what he is here for that is the type of goal i expect nando to thrive off this season.

[bigmick]

Fairs fair. From one who has doubted Morientes practically from day one it has to be said that he was much better last night. Hopefully he will string together a sequence of similar performances and keep banging the goals in, leaving doomongers like me with egg all over our face. Clearly as I've said many times, the guy has huge talent it's just application that has been doubted. Hopefully he will learn quickly that in England, you have to fight for the right to play.

[109-1093441336]

Has no 1 else noticed that all the Spanish players,Morientes include find it difficult adapting to the more physical side of our game! This is more obvious away from home!No 1 is doubting theyre skill and ability!I personally think they need kicked about the training pitch a lot more to toughen them up!

this isn't the gaelic games

[A.B.]

I've said this before, Morientes has never been a 20 goals a season striker. But the goals he's scored have always been important, and it's the way he plays. He can hold up the ball, link up well, create chances and thats what Benitez is looking at.

[bigmick]

In fairness A.B., those who know anything are well aware that he is not an out and out goalscorer. This argument about "important" goals which I've seen on here a bit recently baffles me somewhat. Were his goals last night "important"? Had we have drawn 1-1 instead of winning 3-1 would we still have gone through? The answer is in all probablility yes, though of course had Morientes not scored twice, we can't simply assume that the score would have been 1-1. This is where I have a problem with the theory of important goals. All goals change matches (save for ones which you score with 2 minutes to go when you are already 5-0 up) and are therefore "important" goals. One could venture that in any game the first goal is more "important" as it opens the scoring and puts the team not only infront, but in control.
As for the way he plays, a blind man can see he has lovely touch and awareness. However, there have been too many games where the "way he plays" is to have absolutely no influence on proceedings whatsoever. This is where my problem is with the bloke. I KNOW he's not an out and out goalscorer, I also KNOW he has lovely touch.
The question is simply this, has his contribution in the games he has played been generally enough? Has he had sufficient influence? Now for me and most, the answer is an emphatic NO. As a follow up, the question is, will he in the future? My feeling is probably not but I hope I'm wrong.
It does get a little frustrating when we discuss his performance or on occasions, lack of performance and we get told that we don't understand, "he's not an out and out goalscorer", "he scores important goals", "he's more of a link player". I KNOW ALL THIS !!!
Its just that all too often he doesn't actually DO anything.

[A.B.]

In fairness A.B., those who know anything are well aware that he is not an out and out goalscorer. This argument about "important" goals which I've seen on here a bit recently baffles me somewhat. Were his goals last night "important"? Had we have drawn 1-1 instead of winning 3-1 would we still have gone through? The answer is in all probablility yes, though of course had Morientes not scored twice, we can't simply assume that the score would have been 1-1. This is where I have a problem with the theory of important goals. All goals change matches (save for ones which you score with 2 minutes to go when you are already 5-0 up) and are therefore "important" goals. One could venture that in any game the first goal is more "important" as it opens the scoring and puts the team not only infront, but in control.
As for the way he plays, a blind man can see he has lovely touch and awareness. However, there have been too many games where the "way he plays" is to have absolutely no influence on proceedings whatsoever. This is where my problem is with the bloke. I KNOW he's not an out and out goalscorer, I also KNOW he has lovely touch.
The question is simply this, has his contribution in the games he has played been generally enough? Has he had sufficient influence? Now for me and most, the answer is an emphatic NO. As a follow up, the question is, will he in the future? My feeling is probably not but I hope I'm wrong.
It does get a little frustrating when we discuss his performance or on occasions, lack of performance and we get told that we don't understand, "he's not an out and out goalscorer", "he scores important goals", "he's more of a link player". I KNOW ALL THIS !!!
Its just that all too often he doesn't actually DO anything.

I think you're being a bit biased because you've already made up your mind about Morientes and no matter how good he plays in the future you will feel that he isn't making a difference. Tell me if I'm wrong.

[bigmick]

A.B. you are definately wrong. Not about Morientes because only time will tell, you are wrong about me mate. I'm not one of these egotists that always wants to be right. Anybody's opnion on Morientes at this point with regard to his future success is little more than a guess. I'm happy to have a guess the same as anybody else. I'm also happy to back up the guess with reasoning. If at the end of the day i am wrong, I'll be delighted because it will mean that Nando has worked out and become a top player for us. FFS I was the bloke who said that Pelligrino was a good signing!  Nobody gets it right all the time, very few even get it right most of the time. I did actually praise the bloke up about ten minutes earlier. The fact is I think he's a really good player, I've said it on a number of occasions. For me though, he isn't suited to Englissh football based on what I've seen sofar.
The whole point of the post you've quoted was not about being biased towards Morientes. It was about the exasperation that you feel when you go into detail as I have as to where I think he is lacking and where I think he could improve ( what do I know but it's a forum and I'm entitled to my view) and then people come on and tell me he's not an out and out goalscorer. I know this. They also tell me he has wonderful touch. I know this also.
That, and only that, was the point of the post.

[JBG]

I think Mick makes a few good points.

Morientes has some remarkable strengths, but pace isn't one of them. The Premiership is probably the most athletic and fastest league in the world - particularly for strikers - and pace is Nando's achilles heel.

Pace isn't everything, as can be witnessed in Xabi Alonso and Teddy Sheringham a few years ago, and pace can be compensated by class but most of all, mental sharpness.

When I say mental sharpness, I'm not necessarily talking about attitude, but a sort of mental "fitness" which comes from being physically sharp. A tired body can lead to a tired mind, and from what I've see of Nando in a Liverpool shirt, his lack of physical sharpness has led to mental lethargy.

When he was in a Monaco shirt, Nando looked lean and mentally strong, probably best illustrated in his performance against Chelsea in 2004. However, in addition to that, Monaco played to his strengths. Dado Prso played further forward, and won headers on the edge of the box giving Nando good possession on the edge of the area, where his intelligence and ability can help him create chances. Most importantly, however, that season Monaco had the best two wingers in the world in Ludovic Guily (a small bit like Luis Garcia when Luis is on form) and Jerome Rothen (a carbon copy of David Beckham in his prime 6 years ago, but left sided and without the ridiculous media circus around him). These guys whipped in terrific ball to Nando, particularly in Europe, allowing him to cause havoc.

Benitez has identified this and has bemoaned the lack of quality of balls coming in from the wings. Notice last night Nando's two goals came from balls played in from wide areas - this is what he likes. I'm not entirely convinced of any of our wide players, but if Rafa can find a decent right winger who can lash in a good ball, Nando might start rockin and rollin again.

[jonnymac1979]

One of the ridiculous rumours that was going round shortly after won the Champions League was that we were going to sign Rothen on a years loan. 

Now THAT would have been a signing to cheer about, I remember The M62 Shite were chasing him years ago, Rothen is one hell of a top class wide player.

Rafa, if you're reading on the off chance.........

[JBG]

One of the ridiculous rumours that was going round shortly after won the Champions League was that we were going to sign Rothen on a years loan. 

Now THAT would have been a signing to cheer about, I remember The M62 Shite were chasing him years ago, Rothen is one hell of a top class wide player.

Rafa, if you're reading on the off chance.........

Rothen is potentially one of the best players in the world but the lad needs his head read for going to PSG last season. He'll waste away there in the French league.

£7m or £8m would buy him and I'd have him ahead of any of the wide players we currently have. He's also a strong lad and he'd do well in England.

Fantastic crossing ability that lad!

[Liverpool 4 EVA]

I think Mick makes a few good points.

Morientes has some remarkable strengths, but pace isn't one of them. The Premiership is probably the most athletic and fastest league in the world - particularly for strikers - and pace is Nando's achilles heel.

Pace isn't everything, as can be witnessed in Xabi Alonso and Teddy Sheringham a few years ago, and pace can be compensated by class but most of all, mental sharpness.

When I say mental sharpness, I'm not necessarily talking about attitude, but a sort of mental "fitness" which comes from being physically sharp. A tired body can lead to a tired mind, and from what I've see of Nando in a Liverpool shirt, his lack of physical sharpness has led to mental lethargy.

When he was in a Monaco shirt, Nando looked lean and mentally strong, probably best illustrated in his performance against Chelsea in 2004. However, in addition to that, Monaco played to his strengths. Dado Prso played further forward, and won headers on the edge of the box giving Nando good possession on the edge of the area, where his intelligence and ability can help him create chances. Most importantly, however, that season Monaco had the best two wingers in the world in Ludovic Guily (a small bit like Luis Garcia when Luis is on form) and Jerome Rothen (a carbon copy of David Beckham in his prime 6 years ago, but left sided and without the ridiculous media circus around him). These guys whipped in terrific ball to Nando, particularly in Europe, allowing him to cause havoc.

Benitez has identified this and has bemoaned the lack of quality of balls coming in from the wings. Notice last night Nando's two goals came from balls played in from wide areas - this is what he likes. I'm not entirely convinced of any of our wide players, but if Rafa can find a decent right winger who can lash in a good ball, Nando might start rockin and rollin again.

ah, your posts are always a great read mate.

You almost always write what I think.

Cheers!

[A.B.]

A.B. you are definately wrong. Not about Morientes because only time will tell, you are wrong about me mate. I'm not one of these egotists that always wants to be right. Anybody's opnion on Morientes at this point with regard to his future success is little more than a guess. I'm happy to have a guess the same as anybody else. I'm also happy to back up the guess with reasoning. If at the end of the day i am wrong, I'll be delighted because it will mean that Nando has worked out and become a top player for us. FFS I was the bloke who said that Pelligrino was a good signing!  Nobody gets it right all the time, very few even get it right most of the time. I did actually praise the bloke up about ten minutes earlier. The fact is I think he's a really good player, I've said it on a number of occasions. For me though, he isn't suited to Englissh football based on what I've seen sofar.
The whole point of the post you've quoted was not about being biased towards Morientes. It was about the exasperation that you feel when you go into detail as I have as to where I think he is lacking and where I think he could improve ( what do I know but it's a forum and I'm entitled to my view) and then people come on and tell me he's not an out and out goalscorer. I know this. They also tell me he has wonderful touch. I know this also.
That, and only that, was the point of the post.

Fair enough, you've made some good points. If Morientes stays mentaly strong (as JBG pointed out) then he will make an impact. After the first goal he scored last night that lifted him entirely, he was playing better as soon as he scored. Like every striker he needs something good to happen to him in order to get his confidence up.

[Luis Garcia]

We should give Morientes as long as it takes LFc fans to forget about re-signing michael owen.

Give morientes the ball in the right place he'll bury it.

[Sabre]

Hi, as I did last year with Real Sociedad's player Xabi Alonso , I will give my thoughts to you about some of the names that have popped up in this thread

Reina: He's a decent keeper, top average as we'd say here. Yep he stopped quite a lot of penalties last season but then again, that might be a matter of luck. Anyway, decent signing, he might not be brilliant but somehow he provides confidence and has always managed to be in the starting eleven although he had strong competence in his position. Although good, I find this signing quite expensive. I wonder what's wrong with Sander Westerveld, he used to play in Liverpool, and did great in my team, I quite like this keeper.

Figo: I'm really happy he didn't sign for Liverpool. Nothing to do with him coming from the so hated Real Madrid, I used to love this player. But he's quite old by now, he doesn't have the explosion in dribbling he used to have and his team attitude is awful, he just doesn't admit to be changed and things like that, sends poisonous senteces to the press when things just doesn't happen as he'd like to.

Morientes: Rafa seems to rely on him, so does Luis Aragones (Spanish coach) and so do I. I pretty much like him since he nailed a couple of goals against my team when he played for Zaragoza. He's one of the few proper strikers Spain have. I think you still haven't seen what he can provide Liverpool, and I think that's because he had been a reserve in madrid for a long time. I'm pretty sure that as Nihat and many other players did, he will explode this second season. IMHO it's very important to do the preseason with the team. Good finishing, excellent ball protection, good movements, that's what you can  expect from him. And I dare to say that he can achieve more than 13 goals.

Excuse me for my incorrect english

Sabre

P.D. I'd preffer the Cisse - Morientes couple, Cisse provides what Morientes hasn't and viceversa. I definitely think Morientes is better than Baros (wich I have seen playing for liverpool not like you but quite often)