Liverpool FC Forum

[ivor_the_injun]

My take on Owen: he's a more intelligent player than he was when he first burst onto the scene, but this seems to be more as a result of the fact that he's had to compensate for losing the extra yard of pace somewhere along the line. Instead of bursting through defences, he's had to learn to watch the back line, and also to pick a pass every now and again instead of being more direct and/or selfish.

And the result of this change? He's a far less intimidating player, which in turn has made him less effective.

No i was at the matches (something you wouldn't know anything about)

I've been to some matches and I've watched others on TV. I've also been to matches that I've later watched on TV. Yes, there are off-the-ball things that you aren't shown on TV, but there's also several dozen cameras looking in the directions that you aren't, and from angles that you can't. Regularly attending matches does not make you any more of an expert on the game or the team than someone on the other side of the world that doesn't have the option of making it to Premiership matches. Lord knows I've stood and sat next to enough clueless f**kers over the years that spend more time appealing for foul throws and moaning about the fact that their pie's cold than they have coming out with anything that's of any consequence.

[115-1073096938]

Of course you get know nothing idiots at games.... i wouldn't dispute that.

However... you don't see the game properly on tv. Not at all. When players are on the ball you don't see the whole pitch. At the match you can see what they should do much better and you see players like Owen doing exactly what he should be doing IE passes, runs, when to hold it up, when not to hold it up etc etc.

Thats also the reason the acadamies send youth players to games. So they can see the game properly. You can often learn the game aswell from watching it as playing it.

Tv camera's can be used to study points and incidents but first and foremost its better to see the incident live.

[supersub]

I say we let the manager decide his best forward pairing.

[ivor_the_injun]

However... you don't see the game properly on tv. Not at all. When players are on the ball you don't see the whole pitch. At the match you can see what they should do much better and you see players like Owen doing exactly what he should be doing IE passes, runs, when to hold it up, when not to hold it up etc etc.

Fair points, but I'd still take you up on them. It's not a matter of being better or worse - it's just a different way of watching the game. There's nothing wrong with the camera following the ball - any coach worth their salt will tell you that the best thing you can do when you're on the ball is to move with it and then offload it to your closest teammate that's made space for themselves if you get closed down.

So yeah - TV obviously can't show the whole pitch live, but it never ceases to amaze me how many fouls I've shouted for when I've been at a match have turned out to be perfectly good tackles, and how many offsides I've called for have been one of two yards on. Ideally all LFC fans would be able to both watch the games home and away, and then on TV at their leisure when they get home. They can't, and my whole point here is that there's no way that you should hold this against people when they're making perfectly valid arguments about what they've seen, however they've seen it.

And anyway, for about 4/5 of the people in any football stadium, your view of the action is always going to be limited either due to your distance from the action or the angle that you're viewing from. Sure - if you're near the halfway line and sufficiently above pitch level, it's a brilliant way of watching each and every player do their stuff either on and off the ball, but for the vast majority of punters that are forking out their hard-earned, the first they know about something happening is when the people nearer the action start shouting about it.

[115-1073096938]

So yeah - TV obviously can't show the whole pitch live, but it never ceases to amaze me how many fouls I've shouted for when I've been at a match have turned out to be perfectly good tackles, and how many offsides I've called for have been one of two yards on. Ideally all LFC fans would be able to both watch the games home and away, and then on TV at their leisure when they get home. They can't, and my whole point here is that there's no way that you should hold this against people when they're making perfectly valid arguments about what they've seen, however they've seen it.

Right the perfect example of what i'm talking about. Tottenham hotspur at home, second home game (i think) of last season is the one that stands out the most. Milan Baros done alot of running and saw loads of the ball. He battled and ran and ran and kept going for 90 minutes.

I came home from that game and read on another site how well all these people thought he played. They were all praising him saying he was so unlucky and had a great game and shown just how good he was etc etc. Praising his skill, pace and power etc.

I was sitting in the main stand and my mate was practically opposite me in the centenary on the back row and my mates uncle was in the upper anfield road. We ALL made the same observations, saying how Baros was holding onto the ball for too long and allowing defenders to get back and how he played the wrong pass nearly every time he had the ball. We ALL agreed that his touch was heavy and although the effort was clearly there, he simply didn't have the quality to get through Tottenham's defence. We agreed with each other, we were at the game. Our opinions differred greatly from those that saw the match on tv.

Also i don't critisise referee's unless its blatent. I don't see the point, they don't change their mind and it doesn't make them any better. They're human after all and do there best more often than not and thats how the game should stay. (a different debate altogether though).

And anyway, for about 4/5 of the people in any football stadium, your view of the action is always going to be limited either due to your distance from the action or the angle that you're viewing from. Sure - if you're near the halfway line and sufficiently above pitch level, it's a brilliant way of watching each and every player do their stuff either on and off the ball, but for the vast majority of punters that are forking out their hard-earned, the first they know about something happening is when the people nearer the action start shouting about it.

Disagree with this. I've sat all over the ground and the only really bad places to sit are at around pitch level. from about   20 rows back on the kop and anfield road is a superb view as is the same on the side stands. Even the "obstructed views" are superb.

I know what you're saying, i can understand the use of technology and camera angles etc to analyse certain things... but as i said, the best way to judge players is live at a game. Over a period of games its clear for all to see who the good players are if you know what you are looking for.

Another good sign is people not slagging certain players decisions during games. That spurs match again... people where getting really frustrated with Baros in that game.

On a seperate note... 

I just hope that once i have all the qualifications i want i can do what Houllier done and work my way to the top and then hopefully produce what i talk about.

[begintoend]

Milan Baros may not have a league record that Owen has. But certainly his record for his country is amazing. Before Euro, Baros scored only as a substitute. So maybe you'll like to work the minutes per goal thing. Records are past. One half see Owen has lost it. The other half claims he is still god-like.

Owen is the sort of striker that needs to use his pace. He is not as intelligent as other strikers now. Now that he has lost his speed, his strength totally negligible, his 1st touch horrible. He has not regain his formal touches and lethal predator instinct in front of goal. He needs to regain that and it should be his priority now.

Baros is still very much lack the experience needed for 1 whole season. He does not score that well with his head. His speed is not terrifying but he has enough strength to give him an extra space to strike. He runs around more to open spaces, he always link up with the midfield and is 1st to break away for a counter attack. Baros just needs more experience, thus he needs more games which he fully deserves.

Cisse is still very much unknown especially in EPL. But given many videos of him, he has the gift of a striker that keeps scoring. He has a wonderful french record for goals. Acieving it in EPL is another question.

Anfield has 3 great strikers with their respective goal records. Each record has its own status as a fabulous scoring feat. Still you don't really judge by those past. I use to hail Owen as wonderful, but I have to differ. I am being very nuetral. Cisse and Baros ahead base on form and individual confidence.

Making Owen 3rd choice and it will spur him to regain & improve which I find is very important. With that I have no doubt that Owen will regain his form and claim back his role in the strike force. Its only for the good of the club that he is back to his best. And to attain top or world class, all 3 of them will have to work triple hard.

[Bruno Zidane!]

Of course Baros hasnt got the goalscorin record of Owen because he doesnt have the games played record of owen, Give baros 15-20 games and i reckon he would have a a goal every other game, he just needs a manager who will give him the confidence (like the Czech coach does) and a decent supply line and once rafa gives him that, watch the kid go just like he did in portugal.

[cheesecrackernuts]

I think Baros has presented Liverpool with a dilemma for the new season. They have already signed Djibril Cisse and have established England international Michael Owen as first choice, so where might Baros (left) fit in? The Czech Republic striker had a terrific Euro 2004 tournament, finished as leading scorer, and was outstanding throughout. It has certainly given new boss Rafael Benitez something to think about as he prepares for the new season. They have paid out £14m for Cisse so Baros could still find himself third in the pecking order.

We didn't really see the true Baros last season, due to his injury problems, but he could well prove a real asset in the new campaign. His lack of gam es probably meant that when it came to Portugal he was one of the fittest.

Baros played with a lot of confidence, looked a real handful for defences, so must be given a chance. He has yet to prove, though, whether he can sustain that kind of form throughout a season.

I am sure he will give it at least another season at Anfield and fight for a place. If it doesn't happen for him, he might consider leaving, but it's a case of whether Liverpool are prepared to cash in on him. I always think these big tournaments can give a false impression. Players know they can turn it on for four or five games - El-Hadji Diouf and Salif Diao spring to mind - but it's whether they can hack it over a 50-game period.

Baros reminds me a little bit of Davey Fairclough. Whenever they get the chance, possibly as a substitute, they excel because they want to show the manager what they can do. Davey was a terrific player but he could not necessarily turn it on for a full season. 

Vote cheesnuttie for the elite member!!!

[blind]

they should start the season off trying the different combinations owen/baros, Owen /cisse, baross/cisse
and give each pairing a little run and use the third striker after 60 minutes as an extra attacking player or as a straight swap.

Our problem over the last few seasons is conceeding late in games after taking a lead we do not kill off opponants like Arsenal or even Man U that is why we ended up 30 points off the top. if we can through on the extra striker to kill off the birminghams of this world then we will end up 20 points per season better off.

[115-1073096938]

Owen is the sort of striker that needs to use his pace. He is not as intelligent as other strikers now. Now that he has lost his speed, his strength totally negligible, his 1st touch horrible. He has not regain his formal touches and lethal predator instinct in front of goal. He needs to regain that and it should be his priority now.

For christs sake are you stupid?

Its down to form...FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM,

NOT ABILITY.... NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY.... u get that?

[DAV]

The way i see it. Baros performed in the euros, never really has had a run in our team.
Hense (Low morale) the same as alot of our other players last season. resulting in poor perfomances
Real Madrid can see he what he can bring to a team, i just hope our new manager can to.
Cisse, well ive seen his stats but can he perfom in the premier ship. TIME WILL TELL. Loads of these hot shots from france have come over in the past and failed.
I'm just looking forward to the new season and think getting red of Baros would be a mistake.

[long sleeved joe]

One thing i know is if Baros was English we would of had offers from Chelsea and Rooney wouldnt be the only player making headlines- he would be a marketing superstar by now.

[Santa]

Loads of these hot shots from france have come over in the past and failed.

You mean the likes of Henri, Viera, Anelka, Peres, Gallas, Desailly, Makelele etc...? 

The way GH cherry pick his potentials like Cheyrou, Traore, Vignal, Diarra etc is laughable. Rest assure Cisse is a different class alltogether. Besides the odd are favouring us...we had our fair share of duds in the club already.

[fritzylfc]

what is wrong with our forward line, grow up and understand our weakmesses, week after week our midfield and defence lets us down gerrard apart, they are so slow that this forum gets the point. we need pace from fullbacks to our cantering midfield gerrard can,t do it all; on is own.we have lost the vision pass and move. we have moved downwards. we have always had top strikers hunt dalglish   rush. fowler owen baros cisse.we have also so had graet defenders and midfielders but not at the moment. never knock good goal scorers there from heaven.with out them boys we would be in a mess . keep up the good work

[supersub]

Owen is the sort of striker that needs to use his pace. He is not as intelligent as other strikers now. Now that he has lost his speed, his strength totally negligible, his 1st touch horrible. He has not regain his formal touches and lethal predator instinct in front of goal. He needs to regain that and it should be his priority now.

For christs sake are you stupid?

Its down to form...FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM,

NOT ABILITY.... NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY....NOT ABILITY.... u get that?

I agree with stu,it's form that counts and Owen's form over the last 2 seasons has been cr*p.