stu_the_red wrote:LIVERPOOLANYTIME wrote:
This thread has had some good debate and has been good reading, just like to add my two pence to the argument.
I have to say that Owen is NOT a 'World Class' striker.
He is a good striker and if you go on his scoring record then this is easily backed up and you cold even argue that he has a 'world class' scoring record, which to be honest, probably cant be argued against.
However in my opinion this DOES NOT make him a world class striker by any means. Maybe a contradiction of terms but i dont think it is!!
His all round game is poor and apart from puting it in the back of the net, what does he actully bring to the team as a whole. I know some will argue that bringing goals is all that matters when talking about strikers, which to a point is correct, but for ME you need to bring and show more (main reason we are looking at crouch IMO).
He cannot hold the ball up well, and when he does he tends to be selfish with his passing. What makes me say this is that, i have seen Owen MANY times, play a ball to say a winger, but in such a way that the only otion for the player receiving the ball is to play Owen in, he tends to play the ball very wide or behind the oncoming teammate as to give HIMSELF time to get in the box!! For me this shows a selfish attitude (though this can be expected from strikers you might say,but then you look at Henry and this isnt the case).
Michael Owen has very little skill, and often gets between defenders, not through skill, but through getting lucky knocks off the defenders legs etc; (anyone who disagrees....you need to really need to check this out), and being so small he is able to squirm past players,who are often worried about fouling him in the area.
I dont think Rafa likes his style of play and on the whole doesnt really rate him,hence he was allowed to leave without much of a fight. He simply doesnt fit into Rafa's style of play. Owen is at his best when playing off the shoulder of defenders and relying on his pace to get onto the through balls.
With rafa, i see a more methodical style of play, and personally i dont think owen has the attributes to play this way, he is a SIMPLE player and wants it put through so he can run on to it, otherwise he finds it difficult to score.
After the 2001 treble,why do you think we struggled - in my opinion - it was because teams had cottoned on to the way that we played and always looked for Owen via a SG long through ball.
So it comes as no surprise that we win the CL after he left, IMO, if he was still here we would ave played a lot differently and the players would still have focused the attention on getting the ball to SG, in the hope he would find Owen and thats how we would get our goals.
Owen hardly EVER scored from outside the box, and was unable to score an array of different types of goals - he just reminded me of Lineker to be honest. Compare to another Anfield hero - Fowler - he could score from outside the box, volleys and even free kicks!! Cant imagine Owen taking a free kick can you?
Some people will obviously disagree with a lot i ave said no doubt, but personally i look at football and footballers as a whole package, and although Owen does score a lot of goals, his WHOLE package is poor IMO.
The thing is IF he ISNT scoring, then WHAT DOES HE BRING that will benefit the team??
For example we know that Mori will not be a 20-30 goal a season man, but he REALLY can link play properly and create for OTHERS (of course he still has to show this to us, but we still know he CAN do that).
Another example is Cisse, just the other night he was played out wide, though not his natural position e was still able to make a decent impact and cause problems and create chances for OTHERS. Can you imagine Owen playing out wide?? Hmmmm, dont think so!!
As (john craig i think) said, the stats dont tell the whole story, yes he does have a 1:2 ratio, which is up with the best, but a lot of these goals were against 'weaker' opposition and then we have the 10 in 6 games type of thing followed by a spell of 7 without a goal for example.
If he was world class and he supposedly wants out of Real at the moment, then how come the likes of Barca, Milan(either one) and the rest of the usual suspects dont seem to be interested?
If he was world class, then why does he have extreme problems getting past real class strikers such as raul/ronaldo??
Three managers cant all be wrong in their estimations of owen, by placing him on the bench.
Madrid only bought him, to appease their fans clamouring for a 'big name' signing, not a big player, but a big name!!
I am sorry but Owen made the decision to leave, and now he is regretting it, we should not pander to his need of playing regularly so he can be a starter at the world cup next year.
IMO Rooney/defoe would be alot more devastating than Rooney/Owen - Why, we know what Rooney can do, but Defoe has a lot more to his game than Owen does and will in time be a lot better than Owen (IMO of course!)
First of all i ask are you completely stupid or are you a child who doesn't understand the game of football. Its 8pm on a friday night and i'm that sick of having to explain the basics i'll do it one last time. This is to educate on the game, don't be offended, just shut up, listen and learn.He is a good striker and if you go on his scoring record then this is easily backed up and you cold even argue that he has a 'world class' scoring record, which to be honest, probably cant be argued against.
However in my opinion this DOES NOT make him a world class striker by any means. Maybe a contradiction of terms but i dont think it is!!
Agreed. Robbie Fowler the prime example. A true world class goalscorer. That made him a top class player, the rest of his game was very average. He had a smart brain, was technically very good, but wasn't particulally fast or strong which made him pretty average all round, however he could score any type of goal.His all round game is poor and apart from puting it in the back of the net, what does he actully bring to the team as a whole. I know some will argue that bringing goals is all that matters when talking about strikers, which to a point is correct, but for ME you need to bring and show more (main reason we are looking at crouch IMO).
He cannot hold the ball up well, and when he does he tends to be selfish with his passing. What makes me say this is that, i have seen Owen MANY times, play a ball to say a winger, but in such a way that the only otion for the player receiving the ball is to play Owen in, he tends to play the ball very wide or behind the oncoming teammate as to give HIMSELF time to get in the box!! For me this shows a selfish attitude (though this can be expected from strikers you might say,but then you look at Henry and this isnt the case).
Thats quite simply. Baros for the comparrison. He has NO awareness of whats around him, he doesn't caluculate his passes or movement. Owen does. As i've previously mentioned, Owen recieves the ball, lays it off to a player who 8/10 times is in a very good position with alot of time and space. This is something that improved dramatically in his game over the years. Now can you imagine giving the ball to Ryan Giggs in 30 yards of space and one full back infront of him? Owen played passes with intelligence into space for others to use it. If they didn't use the space, thats not his fault.
To say he "can't" hold the ball up is simple stupidity. We all know he can't fend of Campbell and Ferdinand and Terry by using size and can't bring down a high ball against these players then hold them off. But thats about service, if the balls played into Owen's feet, 8/10 times he finds his own team mate, usually with one of the good passes i was just talking about. He brings othre players into the game ALOT, if you actually went to games over the last 6/7 years, you'd see that.
You're point on his "selfishness" is absoloutely shocking. I'm sorry, but the idea of having a world class striker is he knows how to get people to create chances for him, he knows how to finish. I'm telling you now, Owen knows how to do that better than most. He often forced the likes of Murphy and Gerrard to play particular passes into his runs which created goals. Any fool who can't see this is the sign of a good striker doesn't understand football.
I'd rather have Owen through on goal, than Xabi Alonso or Gerrard. If you actually watched Henry, Henry is a very different player from Owen. Henry uses the wings, Owen plays through the centre. If i had a striker who could finish, i'd tell him to push the ball out wide and get in the box, i'm sorry but to say that for doing his job he's selfish is a rediculous comment.
I remember a goal at highbury the season before last when everyone was praising Gerrard's "wonderful" pass. Gerrard's pass was nothing more than good... Owen's run and the way he got away from Campbell and in behind and finished shown exactly what he's all about. he physically pushed Campbell to give him a start, then bang the runs made, he's recieved the ball and he scores.
Another example... Rooney's goal for England against Croatia was it? Owen pulled off the front line, and recieved a pass from Rooney, he then instantly (one touch) played the one two which put Rooney through. It was basic vision and awareness, but thats ALOT more than the Baros has shown, Baros would never in a million years have spotted the pass that Rooney or Owen played in that move, he also wouldn't have had the intelligence to be in either position.
Also, from what i've seen of Cisse, Owen's as good at holding the ball up as him and his link up play is far better so far.Michael Owen has very little skill, and often gets between defenders, not through skill, but through getting lucky knocks off the defenders legs etc; (anyone who disagrees....you need to really need to check this out), and being so small he is able to squirm past players,who are often worried about fouling him in the area.
Very little skill? Are you having a laugh? I remember numourous goals wheres he's dribbled past 2/3/4 players over 40 yards and in the space of about 10 yards, goals against Coventry, West Ham, Argentina, Forest, Birmingham and Porto spring to mind off the top off my head. One game last season against Newcastle, he recieved a 50 yard pass from Gerrard and had two defenders around him, his touch killed the ball instantly, the pass then switched the play to Gerrard who played it inside to Hamann, who should have shot but instead lost the ball by trying to be to clever, he often controls the ball away from defenders so they can't get a tackle in and he keeps the momentum going. Unlike our own, Baros, Head down... "run run run, oooops the balls gone out...
Also i can see where you're coming from the fact he gets "lucky" every time, i mean its surely all luck, as you say he has no skill. And the fact that he uses his low centre of gravity to his advantage isn't allowed to be a quality is it? In the same way that being 6'7 and being able to win a header isn't.
The reason defenders don't lunge in aswell, is simple, they'll foul him, they'll then conceed a penalty, because they know he's good enough to whip the ball away then get the defender to commit the foul.I dont think Rafa likes his style of play and on the whole doesnt really rate him,hence he was allowed to leave without much of a fight. He simply doesnt fit into Rafa's style of play. Owen is at his best when playing off the shoulder of defenders and relying on his pace to get onto the through balls.
With rafa, i see a more methodical style of play, and personally i dont think owen has the attributes to play this way, he is a SIMPLE player and wants it put through so he can run on to it, otherwise he finds it difficult to score.After the 2001 treble,why do you think we struggled - in my opinion - it was because teams had cottoned on to the way that we played and always looked for Owen via a SG long through ball.
So it comes as no surprise that we win the CL after he left, IMO, if he was still here we would ave played a lot differently and the players would still have focused the attention on getting the ball to SG, in the hope he would find Owen and thats how we would get our goals.
Right well thats a complete contradiction. Look at his goalscoring record the seasons after the treble lad. It got better, so i can't see where you're coming from there. If they defended deep he scored goals in other ways, headers, volleys etc. His goalscoring record kept improving, so i don't see how you can blame the teams lack of quality on one player who was the only one to keep performing at the same level. At the end of the day, its not his fault the team started to play like
Ahh
Another one tho on work rate...
Defenders = w
strikers = x
ball = o
How many times do we see Baros chasing the ball like this...
1:
w wo w w
x
2:
w w wo w
x
3:
w w w wo
x
Answer?
Owen:
1:
wo w w w
x
2:
w w wo w
x
3:
w w w wo
x
It saves energy, Baros lets teams play across the backline, Owen always closes from the centre of the pitch which stops the switch of play which gives the opposition less time.
Its called brains.
Good reply Stu and i appreciate the time taken to come to a well reasoned argument. BUT there is no need to tell me to 'shut-up' and listen, because you have qouted me in your post, so obviously i AM gonna read your reply. Also dont ASSUME that because someone DISAGREES with you, this makes them a child, or that they dont understand the game of football.
Believe me you DO NOT NEED to educate me on the world of football, as i am SURE i got further than you in the game anyway
(but thats another matter altogether!).However all that you say basically is the opposite to what i say, and if i make a further reply, i will also do the same - say the opposite to you. And we will end up going in circles!!
So I think it is clear we disagree on the abilities of MO, and therefore will have to agree to disagree.
Again, though, i dont agree with (the majority) of your post, I CAN see where you are coming from.
I simply do not see Owen as having World Class attributes, though the statistics of his scoring, do (admittedly) make this a very hard point to make - as people will always revert back to his scoring ratio!!
I think we will NOT see him back at Anfield whilst rafa is in charge though, and personally i think this (will?) speaks volumes.
But the one point i will make (as i strongly disagree with your viewpoint on it!!) is that he DOES HAVE VERY LITTLE skill. Maybe my view of skill (and what it is) are different from yours, but I am sorry, MO has very little all round skill, he has no 'tricks', very little craft, a lack of creativity, poor ball control, a lack of RELIABLE dribbling skills, and this is to name but a few.
Also on a quick side point - I did not mention Baros in my post so fail to understand why you have used him to TRY and clarify your points...Why didnt you choose a 'world class' striker to do this?
Also i DID NOT say that Owen did not have a brain or was stupid, so i dont understand why you mention that either!!
he would have to make a statement to win me over, but i totally agree with you also, jbg
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