Mediocre cut-price creative players...... - ..the reason no title in 17 yrs...

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby ivor_the_injun » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:46 pm

Sean wrote:If you look at United teams from Fergies first four years in charge ('86 to '90), apart from from Jesper Olsen their wing options were limited.  They were fortunate to win the F.A. Cup in 1990 and Fergie was lucky to have kept his job.  Then, I remember in 1991 Fergie started playing Lee Sharpe on the left wing.  He was 17 years of age and on fire as United won the European Cup Winners Cup.  I reckon Fergie decided around this time that his teams would be built with an attacking philosophy.

At the beginning of the 91/92 season he started playing Andrei Kanchelskis on the right wing with Sharpe or Giggs on the left.  It worked brilliantly.  They should have won the league but were pipped by Leeds.  The following year they made no mistake and haven't looked back since.  Since discovering the winning formula Fergie has never deviated from the template of attacking football.  Except for Giggs the ingredients have changed.  Rooney is his new Mark Hughes, Vidic the new Bruce, Ferdinand the new Pallister.

Fergie does not over analyse the opposition.  He simply sends his team out with a licence to express themselves and ultimately to outscore the opposition.  Sure, he has often got caught out by the better teams in Europe but thats another debate.  In the premiership the Fergie template works almost every time.  Football should be a simple game.  Every United player always knows exactly what his role is when he runs out onto the pitch, simply because his role remains the same every week.  At Liverpool, we change personnel and formation so much it only succeeds in breeding confusion.

Good post, and a good reminder of where we're lacking. Our wings are still f*cked.

For years we've had square pegs into round holes: Diouf, Cisse, Riise, Aurelio, Garcia, Babel and Benayoun as wingers, Traore, Diao and Arbeloa at centre back for example, and even if you've only got one player playing out of position, it's massively damaging to your side.

We've often had Babel and Benayoun on the wings this season, and you just can't do that and expect to compete with the teams above us. They're both fine players, but Babel's clearly a striker, and Benayoun's clearly more of a creative link man between midfield and attack. I think we've really missed Pennant this season, but it's not like he's the best crosser, and it's not as if the left's hunky-dory either.

With the central midfielders that we have, you just have to hope that Rafa gets this sorted before next season. In theory you look at us with a fit Kewell on the left and a fit Pennant on the right and we've got a good attacking side. But then look at Man U and see how many goals a season they're getting from Ronaldo, Giggs, not to mention the emerging back-up players like Nani. Even if we have our first choice line-up available we're still far from the biggest attacking threat throughout the side.
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Postby redmikey » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:51 pm

most of our failure can be placed at a short sighted board, when in the late eighties they did see how much tv was going to change football.
we have been left in the wake of manure due to the fact they have grown as a club five times as much as we did in the last decade, in all aspects of marketing , merchandise and retail to the non match going fans.

we were so stuck with tradition that we didn't get the best manager in when kenny left we got a FORMER CAPTAIN, who i admit had been a success at rangers but that say feck all, i bet our board didn't even look at fergie an up and coming manager in scotland, and managers from aboard were unheard of in the north.

you only have to look at parry at the moment to see that we are a joke when it comes to the management at the top level, and while david moores aways loved the club he kept us in the 70s and 80s living on our name

roy evans had no backing from the board and when stan didn't push on to become the player we all wanted him to be he was fecked.

not one person that i remember didn't buy into all the rule of iron that GH brought with him, but he he was so far out of his depth it was unreal

rafa for me has made his mistakes since taking charge but is a shinig light when it comes to all aspects of is future for lfc. but these yank idiots who don't seem to have a pot to p!ss in when it comes to us, are  if we are not careful going top do a LEEDS TO US , and i genuinely believe that could happen if rafa leaves
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Postby Owzat » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:31 pm

Big Niall wrote:
Sean wrote:If you look at United teams from Fergies first four years in charge ('86 to '90), apart from from Jesper Olsen their wing options were limited.  They were fortunate to win the F.A. Cup in 1990 and Fergie was lucky to have kept his job.  Then, I remember in 1991 Fergie started playing Lee Sharpe on the left wing.  He was 17 years of age and on fire as United won the European Cup Winners Cup.  I reckon Fergie decided around this time that his teams would be built with an attacking philosophy.

At the beginning of the 91/92 season he started playing Andrei Kanchelskis on the right wing with Sharpe or Giggs on the left.  It worked brilliantly.  They should have won the league but were pipped by Leeds.  The following year they made no mistake and haven't looked back since.  Since discovering the winning formula Fergie has never deviated from the template of attacking football.  Except for Giggs the ingredients have changed.  Rooney is his new Mark Hughes, Vidic the new Bruce, Ferdinand the new Pallister.

Fergie does not over analyse the opposition.  He simply sends his team out with a licence to express themselves and ultimately to outscore the opposition.  Sure, he has often got caught out by the better teams in Europe but thats another debate.  In the premiership the Fergie template works almost every time.  Football should be a simple game.  Every United player always knows exactly what his role is when he runs out onto the pitch, simply because his role remains the same every week.  At Liverpool, we change personnel and formation so much it only succeeds in breeding confusion.

Bang on :bowdown

Helps that he matched everyone on the spending front, Kanchelskis cost £5m, Pallister £2.2m, Solksjaer £1.5m, Keane £3.75m, Cantona £1.2m - that may not sound a lot, but teams back then cost around £25m not £100m+. So in effect Kanchelskis cost around 1/5 of the entire squad or akin to Chelsea paying £40m for a player in modern terms.

What happened for fergie, and where he got lucky, was that Notts Forest and Leeds foolishly sold key players to rivals - that would not happen these days, as proven with Heinze. fergie bought wisely and took advantage of the main rival being Leeds and then Blackburn and Newcastle. Had it been a strong Liverpool or Arsenal challenging it might all have been different. So I say circumstance favoured fergie and he took full advantage
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Postby stmichael » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:24 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
The_Rock wrote:Houllier learnt the hard way that playing defensive does not work here.

Except if you're Chelsea, I guess.  They had a wealth of attacking talent but often resorted to grinding out results on the back of a rock solid defense + Makalele.  Can't argue with the results, though.

FWIW, I think we are much more in the Chelsea mould than in the Man U mould and I'd have no complaints if we accomplished what Mourinho's lads managed in the league over the past 3 seasons.

Exactly.

Chelsea won back to back titles by winning 1 -0 and Arsenal fans revel in their past reputation for games finishing  ‘1 - 0 to the Arsenal’. Alex Ferguson also recently pointed out that Man Utd had won countless trophies by getting a 1 - 0 win and infact they perfected the art of counter attacking football.

So maybe people are dissatisfied with our style of play but to say we are in any way negative or overly cautious is completely wrong.
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Postby Toffeehater » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:12 pm

NANNY RED wrote:
LittleHobo wrote:
puroresu wrote:For all the faults under roy evans I agree that side was great to watch.  Entertaining, full of creativity, flair and pace.  Thats the way we should be playing.

thats true

and also back then we could up our game against the best teams and beat them whilst playing really well

our downfall was against the craap teams, were we would often underachieve

But we never won anything . Its great to have a flair team with flair pace and yes creativity but if your not winning trophys what good is it .
Remember Newcastle under Keegan so much creativity and pace and flair but what did they win

The old Spurs side with Hoddle and Archibald also Ardilless and the West Hams yes good to watch but what what did they achieve Nothin

u just said what i was thinking , u can play attractive football and if u don't win anything great whats the point , i rather play football like chelsea under mourinho and still win
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Postby pokster » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:30 pm

I'd rather have a first eleven of average players who play as a team/unit instead of have a team full of stars/individuals who cant play as a team.

Football is a team game. So what if we were to get a super winger, say Ronaldo for example. Will his addition bring Premiership glory? What Rafa is trying to build on is a tight cohesive unit on the field. When you see his Valencia's teamsheet, who were the super stars? Aimar? Ayala? With my limited knowledge, he has a lone striker by the name of Mista. A central midfield comprises of Albeda and Baraja. Vicente was his talented left winger.

These names are hardly on the lips of an average football fan unlike Zidane, Henry, Raul, Kaka etc. Rafa trained them to play as a unit and were very difficult to break down.

My point is, give him time..
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Postby puroresu » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:25 pm

pokster wrote:I'd rather have a first eleven of average players who play as a team/unit instead of have a team full of stars/individuals who cant play as a team.

Football is a team game. So what if we were to get a super winger, say Ronaldo for example. Will his addition bring Premiership glory? What Rafa is trying to build on is a tight cohesive unit on the field. When you see his Valencia's teamsheet, who were the super stars? Aimar? Ayala? With my limited knowledge, he has a lone striker by the name of Mista. A central midfield comprises of Albeda and Baraja. Vicente was his talented left winger.

These names are hardly on the lips of an average football fan unlike Zidane, Henry, Raul, Kaka etc. Rafa trained them to play as a unit and were very difficult to break down.

My point is, give him time..
:D

that valencia side was boring and negative.  the valencia side which reached 2 CL finals was better to watch.
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Postby LittleHobo » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:37 pm

pokster wrote:I'd rather have a first eleven of average players who play as a team/unit instead of have a team full of stars/individuals who cant play as a team.

Football is a team game. So what if we were to get a super winger, say Ronaldo for example. Will his addition bring Premiership glory? What Rafa is trying to build on is a tight cohesive unit on the field. When you see his Valencia's teamsheet, who were the super stars? Aimar? Ayala? With my limited knowledge, he has a lone striker by the name of Mista. A central midfield comprises of Albeda and Baraja. Vicente was his talented left winger.

These names are hardly on the lips of an average football fan unlike Zidane, Henry, Raul, Kaka etc. Rafa trained them to play as a unit and were very difficult to break down.

My point is, give him time..
:D

joauqin aswell was a top class winger

but i get your point

valencia were an amazing footballing side, dunno why we havent turn out that way to be honest.

for me aimar was key and we lack a player like him
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Postby Mark 23 » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:15 am

We have bought some :censored: over the years, I have a Croat mate who thinks we are really funny because we bought Biscan, in fact when I look back all the lads from exchange were laughing becuase we had bought somebody :censored: from their country - senegal, Croatia, France, Spain
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Postby ruskiy playmaker » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:35 pm

Title winning teams can afford to have average players in their side, but the key is to have quality players in the right areas.  In my opinion we are 3 players away from becoming serious contenders for the title.

What we need is...
a creative forward partner for Torres like Van der Vart
a real quality winger like Ronaldo
and a fast skill-full FB like Maicon
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Postby LittleHobo » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:38 pm

ruskiy playmaker wrote:Title winning teams can afford to have average players in their side, but the key is to have quality players in the right areas.  In my opinion we are 3 players away from becoming serious contenders for the title.

What we need is...
a creative forward partner for Torres like Van der Vart
a real quality winger like Ronaldo
and a fast skill-full FB like Maicon

this guy knows his stuff

all you need is a threating full back, you dont even need two just one who offers a good attacking outlet, can beat players, has pace and can cross...two would be nice but i think you can get away with having just one of that type

i believe we need two wingers though because kewell, benayoun or babel, pennant, benayoun just dont cut it

babel is a support striker however will cut it but van der vaat is a good shout
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Postby stmichael » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:16 pm

there are a lot of rumours doing the rounds that schweinsteiger will be leaving bayern in the summer. he's only started 8 league games for them all season.

he be a great signing imo as he can play on either flank.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:27 pm

Whatever happened to all the clamor surrounding that Nihat chap who plays for Villarreal?

Wasn't he meant to be a fabulous player?
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Postby puroresu » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:23 pm

stmichael wrote:there are a lot of rumours doing the rounds that schweinsteiger will be leaving bayern in the summer. he's only started 8 league games for them all season.

he be a great signing imo as he can play on either flank.

Yeah but I think Klinsmaan will be keeping him.  He was an important part of Jurgens germany side and would be v surprised if bayern got rid of him.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:26 pm

rpclubes wrote:Very good

I just look at an internet site which sells to anyone a percentage of professional football players.

And we look for the possibility of any of us to buy a percentage of a player as Figo, Messi, etc..?

I think it is an innovative concept, and I think it is worth looking at realplayermanager em.

There are future young stars for sale.

The site is www.realplayermanager.com

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