Liverpool FC Forum

[RedBlood]

lool chill ya beanz

mascherano is quality but i knew that before we signed him, as much as i love momo i see our first choice midfield as:    gerrard mascherano alonso kewell(when fit)

[account deleted by request]

lool chill ya beanz

mascherano is quality but i knew that before we signed him, as much as i love momo i see our first choice midfield as:    gerrard mascherano alonso kewell(when fit)

While I agree with you completly Redblood I think it will be interesting to see a midfield of Kewell, Momo, Mascherano, Gerrard as well. Especially once Momo gets his form back (he was out for a good while)

One things for certain we have good possibilities in midfield. It just seems a bit ironic that the left side of midfield where we seemed so well covered is now seen as the problem area.

[metalhead]

7_kewell, fowler has a technical gift that none of our other strikers have in the squad. still at 32, i think.. he has great movement, quick feet, passes and finish that could net 25 goals per season, shame really that he wasn't given enough opportunities to show us that! he is still a very good striker! I'm very unhappy that he will be leaving us because i think we are getting rid of a very good striker, i don't care how old he is, look at cafu at milan, look at maldini, or inzaghi or j zanetti, they are in the average range of aprox 34 and they are still class! I agree with stu.'

as for mascherano, he has immense quality, and he has impressed me alot before, so definetley he is a very good signing.

[aCe']

mascherano isnt far behind alonso in my books... im an argentina fan and have been seein masch. play for some time now... he is absolutely fantastic... great passing great vision... gets himself in good positions and ususally follows the ball around providing support... alonso hasnt been performing as well as he could and should be and masch's presence should be his wake up call... he now is dispensable if we can get gerrard back in a central role .
as for sissoko ... hes 4th choice behind gerrard,alonso and mascherano ....still expect him to feature in many games as rafa seems to like the physical solidity he adds to our side... but def. needs to improve many aspects of his game to become anywhere near 'top class'

on the fowler issue... all i have to say is.... ronaldo is the 3rd best player in the history of the game.. just because he was benched in madrid because Capello ddnt like wat he had to offer doesnt mean he isnt a good player or wasnt by far their best forward not to mention player ... look at the forwards we have in our side... kuyt...bellamy....crouch... how can u even compare ?! u can tell by the touch of the ball..the control... unless u never played football then id understand !
fowler should start more games and it kills me to see rafa take out gonzales and put in zenden at the 60th min with fowler sitting there on the bench wondering wat the fuk it is kuyt is trying to do running around the midfielders in circles !

[Stu.Murph]

7_Kewell and I had a debate a while back and that is basically why he doesn't rate Fowler. Its got nothing to do with ability I don't think. His nerves are grated at the fact I said he was still an excellent player last season and he came into the club and proved me right and proved 7_Kewell and Nigel Worthington completely wrong...

He also used Nigel Worthington, not rating Robbie, as his arguement to say I know nothing about football which made him look even less clever.

Also, someone who has their name as Solskjaer on MSN can't be expected to say a player like Robbie is quality.

MANC!

[bigmick]

In fairness, I personally think that to compare Robbie and his situation with Cafu, Maldini, Bergkamp (as he was by an earlier poster) is folly. Fowler by his own admission hasn't taken the best care of himself and has also been stricken by horrific injuries during the course of his career, whereas these other players have looked after themselves and have largely remained injury free.

Now this argument between Stu the Red and 7_Kewell is an old one with history. During the course of it the balance of power has ebbed and flowed with each penalty converted by Robbie, with each non appearance in the starting eleven.  As my name was put up earlier I thought I might as well make it clear where I stand.

Fowler clearly still posesses much if not all of his natural game intelligence. Infact it is arguable that with the benefit of experience he probably reads it now better than he ever did. He still as the fantastic technique, the sweetest striker of a football with the left foot you ever did see and a spring like a gazelle along with great timing making him excellent in the air for a little bloke. His movement is still the most cunning you'll see from any striker in the Premier league, not just at Liverpool. Any youngster trying to learn the art of "getting himself open" in the box, that is to say in a position whereby the chances of the ball actually reaching him are maximised, should study Fowler for hour after hour. The way he shows, stops, backtracks two yards and then dives back in front is absolute poetry. Watch how he "drifts" away from the play, getting himself out of line of sight of the defender before looking around him and making sure he's found just the right spot to get himself open. Watch those slow-mo replays of when the ball hits the bar and bounces down. Every player in the frame is fixed to the spot usually with comic expressions on their faces, their arms and legs fixed in some kind of drunken limbo. Every player in the shot except one. That one, the one who darts in and sticks it in the net, the one with the special godgiven gift is Fowler. I've disagreed with Stu before as he claims that Owen was the better player. Not to be mentioned in the same breath breath for me. Fowler at his very best was as good as a striker as I've ever seen. Good in the air, brave, quickish, could bang it in from distance, could tap it in, was clever, sly, skillfull, absolutely had the lot. In his prime he was a wonderful player.

That's the crux though. Despite him retaining many of his abilities, he's lost some as well. Not least of his probnlems is that if you play him for an hour he comes off dripping like a George Forman grill. Because he's lost all of his pace (and don't tell me he was never quick, he was never slow either) his chances of being involved in the game other than in the box are severely limited. Too often, balls played into him are nicked by the fella in behind because he hasn't got the pace or strength to hold posession. Too often, the full back looks for an out ball and because Robbie is either knackered or too slow or both the only option available is to ping it right into his feet from forty yards away. You can't drop it in front because it gets nicked, you can't channel it because he hasn't got the legs to get there. So you've got to hit him below the knees from forty yards. Like trying to hit a TV from a long way away with a fairly flat trajectory. Risky pass because if you don't make it, you lose posesssion. Too often if it gets played in behind and you break onto teams he hasn't got the pace to support, to get into the box early enough and find his spot. You'll see him arriving like a wardrobe coming down the stairs, like all the other mortal strikers do. And too often, the touches go astray as the fatigue sets in. The once reliable first time layoffs don't quite go where intended, and once more posession is lost. For sure, get the ball in and around the box and Robbie will get himself open. Create lots of chances for him and he will score lots of goals. But football isn't the AFL, you don't bring a bloke on to let him kick a goal and then stick him back on the bench. In modern day football players must contribute for ninety minutes and for the most part, this is seemingly beyond Robbie now. There is no greater Fowler advocate than me but time doesn't stand still for anybody, even a little genius from Toxteth.   

One last thing, before I left the Uk I had a couple of bars in Wimbledon and and a few players and ex-players used to get in. One fella who used to show his face from time to time was Robbie Earle. Nice fella Robbie is, no bull and will talk football all night. More than once I've sat there long after everyone's gone home and chewed the fat with him. You ask him who was the hardest ooponent he faced, the one they spent most time talking about all week before the game and if he gives you the same answer he gave me he won't even hesitate for breath, Robbie Fowler.

[Stu.Murph]

Mick, the point about Robbie is he clearly still has tremendous ability. Yes you say we struggle when we hoof it long... thats part of the point, this side now has players who don't need to hoof it. We have Alonso, Gerrard, Finnan, Pennant etc. Tactically we should be able to adjust and keep the ball well enough. In midfield using the other 5 players around Robbie we should be able to play good patterns of football which allow us to keep the ball and get it into good positions without using Robbie to much.... We need wingers who can get in behind on the end of through balls, we need players who can move the ball and can spot a pass and don't need physical strength to hold of defenders and slow the game down. If you're on the move and taking a touch playing one and two touch you don't need to be strong.

I have never seen a striker, including Rush who can "hide" from a defender better than Robbie. As you say, he drifts out of the line of sight of a defender then when they turn to look for him, he attacks the ball. Aston Villa the other week, on the pitch for 10 minutes and looked more likely to score than all of the others who played. His movement for the header which nearly won us the game was typical Fowler, but people like 7_Kewell can't see that, they don't have an idea of what he done, of the movement involved to get into that situation. Even the execution ofthe header was excellent, it was a great save. He can still do that. The other thing aswell, I'd risk the ball coming back at us a few more times in the match aswell as I have every faith the midfield can cope with it and I also have every faith in Robbie being able to nick one or spot the pass that plays someone in. I also think if he plays regularly the midfield and defence would get used to him losing arial balls and become far better at winning the second ball.

Robbie also has a knack for just simply stopping in the penalty area. Everyones moving towards the goal and running round like a headless chickin and Robbie just seems to stop, and allows himself to be available with a couple of yards to spare, you can't teach these things. They just happen. He'll never lose that even when he's 50. Physically he's not in great shape and clearly that prevents him being what he was, but by no means is he so poor physically he's still not a top player.

His intelligence, quick thinking, technique and in general "class" make him quality still. Only an idiot would argue.

Yes he's not going to dominate centre halfs arially, we all know he's no Bellamy but I tell you what, I don't think he'll hold the ball up as badly as Kuyt has either and I also think he'll contribute alot more to faster moves going forward as he spots the pass earlier and often allows himself to get into positions where he can pass the ball to someone who is ahead of himself.

On the Owen issue Mick, Robbie was great. But Micheal could do it on his own if needed. Robbie had more to his game, but Owen was simply unstoppable at his best. I've never seen a striker as lethal as that in my entire life. If you cut the service out to Robbie he was often quiet, with Owen, you gave him half an inch and he could punish even the best sides. Seven games stand out...

1. Porto in the CL, won 2-0. He absoloutely destroyed them but only scored once. They couldn't live with his pace, intelligence and quaility.

2. 4-1 win away at Newcastle. They gave him a mile admittedly, but he took three. Scored a hatrick, should have had 4.

3. Forest at home 5-1. Scored four goals and one of the best performances I've ever seen at Anfield in the premier league.

4. England vs Germany. A hat-trick in a game with that much pressure? At the time for me was the best player in the world.

5. FA Cup final vs Arsenal. Owen cup final, says it all. Still brings a tear to my eye.

6. Man City away, hadn't scored for weeks, was getting slagged left right and centre. No worries, just goes out and scored another hat-trick. You could see the you again you're bornig look to the press in his eyes and body language when he scored the third.

7. Man Utd at anfield. We won three one. He scored a curler from 16 yards after some good build up and scored a header after a Barthez fumble. Had a quiet game and scored twice against one of the best sides in the country and our main rivals.

Theres probably a hell of a lot more, they're just the ones that spring to mind without having to think.

[bigmick]

See we broadly agree on Fowlers qualities but not on whether or not he should still play. You say yourself that most of the qualties he has now he'll still have when he's fifty and I agree with that. That's kind of the point. We can't still keep playing him or anybody else for that matter when they're fifty, time moves on.
You see it if you ever watch that Masters thing, class players are still class. The reason why Peter Beardsley was always the best player on it was because he was the best player off it while they could all run around a lot. See him on that and you can't help but hark back but he couldn't still do it obviously.

Last couple of things. The only way to resolve this debate with the two black and white sides of the argument (ie Stu and 7_Kewell) would be if Fowler went elsewhere and played regularly in the Premiership. If he went to say Blackburn and scored regularly then he's got more left in him as a footballer than I'm giving him credit for, and a lot more than 7_Kewell is. My suspicion however is he'll either go to the States or jack it in altogether so we'll never know. Another thing, given Robbie's honesty over the years I reckon if you were to ask him he'd probably tell you himself that Rafa is right not to play him regularly, although I must confess I think he should have played a good deal more than he has.

On the queston of Owen, he was a fine golascorer without a doubt but not the footballer that Fowler was/is, not for me anyway. He couldn't bury it from 30 yards like robbie, he doesn't attack it in the air like the other fella, and he doesn't have the vision and speed of thought of Fowler either. If Owen was ever reduced to the kind of physical level that Fowler is right now, (and Own could probably still beat Robbie over fifty yards even with his injury) I don't reckon he'd score very often or be able to still influence games like Fowler can.

Anyways, opinions are like erseholes etc etc
 

[66-1112520797]

Two good posts above both interesting reads, the Fowler one was really well written and Stu's case for Owen was very good. I think both strikers were excellent for us and both were the best we've had for the last 15 years or so. Two very different players with different traits about them, it doesnt matter who was better than who. Just that we could do with either at there peak now.

[bigmick]

You're right BM that it doesn't matter who was better, and also in that we could do with either at their peak right now. When you think that before either of them we had John Aldridge (who was and is still much underrated by the Liverpool historians in my opinion) Ian Rush and King Kenny it just shows you what a hard job some of these current lads have in impressing some of us older supporters.

[Stu.Murph]

See we broadly agree on Fowlers qualities but not on whether or not he should still play. You say yourself that most of the qualties he has now he'll still have when he's fifty and I agree with that. That's kind of the point. We can't still keep playing him or anybody else for that matter when they're fifty, time moves on.
You see it if you ever watch that Masters thing, class players are still class. The reason why Peter Beardsley was always the best player on it was because he was the best player off it while they could all run around a lot. See him on that and you can't help but hark back but he couldn't still do it obviously.

Last couple of things. The only way to resolve this debate with the two black and white sides of the argument (ie Stu and 7_Kewell) would be if Fowler went elsewhere and played regularly in the Premiership. If he went to say Blackburn and scored regularly then he's got more left in him as a footballer than I'm giving him credit for, and a lot more than 7_Kewell is. My suspicion however is he'll either go to the States or jack it in altogether so we'll never know. Another thing, given Robbie's honesty over the years I reckon if you were to ask him he'd probably tell you himself that Rafa is right not to play him regularly, although I must confess I think he should have played a good deal more than he has.

On the queston of Owen, he was a fine golascorer without a doubt but not the footballer that Fowler was/is, not for me anyway. He couldn't bury it from 30 yards like robbie, he doesn't attack it in the air like the other fella, and he doesn't have the vision and speed of thought of Fowler either. If Owen was ever reduced to the kind of physical level that Fowler is right now, (and Own could probably still beat Robbie over fifty yards even with his injury) I don't reckon he'd score very often or be able to still influence games like Fowler can.

Anyways, opinions are like erseholes etc etc
 

Are you telling me he didn't improve the side last season? I'm sorry but he did and quite considerabley aswell. He gave us an edge. When he played we looked like a side that didn't have problems scoring a goal. When he didn't before he signed at times I felt we'd struggle to break the top sides down, which is often what happened.

Don't sit there and say to me he's lost what he had last season either. He hasn't. He's going to lose fitness and more mobility over the next two years obviously, and it will get to a time where that has gone so much so he can't hack it anymore... but he's not at that stage yet, not even close and he's still physically average enough to make his technical ability and intelligence count.

He's scored 12 goals in 32 appearances Mick. 14 of which at least have been as a sub and most of the sub appearances have been for about 15 minutes or less. Thats 12 goals in 18 starts. He's hardly played a full 90 minutes either. His record since returning is very very impressive.

Had the lad been allowed to play himself into form and fitness and had he been given a run of games are you telling me he wouldn't have more than 7 goals this season? I'm sorry mate but you're talking bubbles. For my money he'd have scored more than Kuyt and Bellamy put together aswell as helping the team score a hell of a lot more. That pass for Gerrard against Sheffield United, you telling me any of our other forwards would have played that? Not a chance mate.

Last seasons team to me with Bellamy in for Morientes would have been very interesting. This season, we've lost out on Fowler and Kewell and its shown a hell of a lot. Last season Mick, watch some of the games lad, we were a different side going forward. We had ideas, quality, power, efficiency and intelligence. This season we've had none of that apart from the occassional flash. Robbie also scores alot of first goals and goals change games. His intelligence and quality has been missed this year and not even nearly replaced. Dirk Kuyt for all his hard work isn't a patch on Robbie and its made us a worse team. The rose tinted brigade though, can't see that.

I thought out of everyone on these boards, you'd be one of the people to recognise how and where this team can be improved and was improved by Fowler's involvement.

[Stu.Murph]

See we broadly agree on Fowlers qualities but not on whether or not he should still play. You say yourself that most of the qualties he has now he'll still have when he's fifty and I agree with that. That's kind of the point. We can't still keep playing him or anybody else for that matter when they're fifty, time moves on.
You see it if you ever watch that Masters thing, class players are still class. The reason why Peter Beardsley was always the best player on it was because he was the best player off it while they could all run around a lot. See him on that and you can't help but hark back but he couldn't still do it obviously.

Last couple of things. The only way to resolve this debate with the two black and white sides of the argument (ie Stu and 7_Kewell) would be if Fowler went elsewhere and played regularly in the Premiership. If he went to say Blackburn and scored regularly then he's got more left in him as a footballer than I'm giving him credit for, and a lot more than 7_Kewell is. My suspicion however is he'll either go to the States or jack it in altogether so we'll never know. Another thing, given Robbie's honesty over the years I reckon if you were to ask him he'd probably tell you himself that Rafa is right not to play him regularly, although I must confess I think he should have played a good deal more than he has.

On the queston of Owen, he was a fine golascorer without a doubt but not the footballer that Fowler was/is, not for me anyway. He couldn't bury it from 30 yards like robbie, he doesn't attack it in the air like the other fella, and he doesn't have the vision and speed of thought of Fowler either. If Owen was ever reduced to the kind of physical level that Fowler is right now, (and Own could probably still beat Robbie over fifty yards even with his injury) I don't reckon he'd score very often or be able to still influence games like Fowler can.

Anyways, opinions are like erseholes etc etc
 

Thats like saying if Zidane could defend aswell he'd be unplayable.

As far as pure football goes Owen's alot safer than Robbie and not as sloppy while his ability to pass is better.... but Robbie obviously has more vision and creative flair. As far as Goals, Robbies always been better again.

But when both at their best, Owen's pace, finishing, movement, passing and just general ability to influence a game was far better. Thats the be all and end all, no if Owen wasn't fast arguements. He was. Thats the end of it.

[Stu.Murph]

You're right BM that it doesn't matter who was better, and also in that we could do with either at their peak right now. When you think that before either of them we had John Aldridge (who was and is still much underrated by the Liverpool historians in my opinion) Ian Rush and King Kenny it just shows you what a hard job some of these current lads have in impressing some of us older supporters.

The two of them it.

Both of them at there peak now in this team and we'd be absoloutely unstoppable. They could have and should have been the best strike force ever to play for Liverpool but due to Houllier's tactics that never happened. This side now with those two upfront would would absoloutely destroy probably every team in europe.

I stand by the statement I made saying Owen at his best was better than Rush aswell. For me he's one of the best players ever to pull on a Liverpool shirt.

[Igor Zidane]

It really is good to see some quality duscussion back on the forum , top posts bigmick and stu.

I know this is the mascherano thread and my measure of quality is the kind of impact a player can make on a team and the improvement he makes on the overall play of the team. This lad has made an impact , in the last two games we have more width to our play , which means more quality crosses into the box and because our ball retention has been so much better our strikers and attacking midfielder or midfielders don't have to come so deep looking for the ball , there getting into better positions in the box , hence more goals. Alonso at times was as far up the pitch as gerrard against psv .

My opinion on fowler is that he has been chronicaly under used this season, i've said it before . I would rather have a Robbie for 65 or 70 mins on the pitch with his goal threat and his intelligence ,than have him on the bench for 80 mins where he is gonna harm no one.
I pretty much like all of our strikers for different reason's but. none of them accept for Robbie have the intelligence or the pure selfishness or footballing ability to be a top 20+ a season striker.

Regarding the fowler owen debate , i'm pretty much of a muchness on who's  is the best. They are /were both top quality strikers and as stu said if used properly would have creamed any defence for liverpool together. I can't really seperate them on this issue (cop out i know), only to say the pair of them are'nt fit to lace Igor Biscan's boots.

[Stu.Murph]

To be fair I never for a second thought Igor was as bad as made out and I believe he shown flashes under Benitez of a player we could have had, had he been given the game time in his correct position and played consistently. He was dropped after starting well, played out of position, booed and laughed at for being played out of position and never ever got a chance. Not once did he complain or kick up a fuss and I don't buy into the theory its because he was a poor player lucky to be at Liverpool.

He shown touches of ability to carry the ball past players, spot a pass and do the dirty work aswell. Imo one who should have been a good player for us but unfortunately it didn't work out.

As for Fowler and Owen. I love them both. Looking at the age of them aswell... 32 and 28... You just have to wonder what might have been...

Owen, Fowler, Gerrard and Carragher as the spine of the team...