Liverpool FC Forum

[pass_da_dutchie]

only a total idiot couldn't see how good Steive and Masch are together...total waste of space this thread.

[hello_red]

I think Mascherano is a superb player, has a great engine and is the best destructive midfielder in the world. To say he cannot play with Gerrard is wrong and just playing for controversy, its been proved (while Xabi went through is season long slump) that a Javier and Stevie partnership does work.

But our best pairing is Gerrard Alonso

or Mascherano Alonso

Those 2 pairings have the best balance but I would prefer Mascha and Alonso wghen under the cosh against better teams as Gerrard is a box to box player and will leave us exposed against better teams.

[maypaxvobiscum]

does individual performances matter more than the team's?

[GYBS]

nope- its the team that matters. what is best for the team not the individual

[Bad Bob]

only a total idiot couldn't see how good Steive and Masch are together...total waste of space this thread.

If you don't like it, don't post in it.  Simple.   

[LFC2007]

Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

Good post.

[Zidane]

Stevie and Masch work fine together we haven't even seen any? (i think) of them together at all this season and we're a completely different squad this season.

[JoeTerp]

exactly, we don't know what a Masch/Gerrard partnership looks like when it plays with Keane in the strikeforce and Riera on the left.

[Fo Dne]

To say Gerrard doesnt always think about his position and that Mascherano certainly doesnt is a very blaze` statement to make. We have seen time and time again that Gerrard can produce disciplined displays in central midfield. We have also seen him in the past, do his Roy of the Rovers stuff while digging us out of the s.hit and getting critisism for lacking game intelligence and positional sense.
As long as he has some kind of cover in midfield whether it be Xabi or Mascha, he can time his runs if and when. When he does this and whether or not he realises he's doing it the whole team usually gain at least 10-15 yards in terratorial advantage as we they push on and support him. Mascha is usually able to offer support in just behind him, while Xabi's back there treading on Carra's toes. Mascha will offer presence at least and the opportunity to pass to, Alonso doesnt usually venture that far forward, the ball usually has to go back 20 yards, and any momentum in that attack withers away when Xabi shows for it usually, he does have the ability to make and dictate the tempo of a game, he does it from a withdrawn or deeper position. Some may say he is too disciplined in that regard, I put it down to the fact the Spainard doesnt have the pace to recover his position where as Mascherano does. And while he's at it, I think Mascha is the better defensive midfielder of the two ontop of that.

Mascherano doesnt offer any real creativity, but I also think its a bit of a myth around here that Alonso is some kind of creativity king. He isnt, he's intelligent plays some wonderful passes, pings the ball around and can of course play the odd 30 yarder to play Torres through on goal. He does dictate the tempo of the game much better than Mascha does, no doubt. But to call him creative, because he's able to play the odd hollywood ball through here and there is to one dimesional for my liking.

Gerrard epitomises creativity alot more than Alonso will, and while he may not have have the game intelligence that Alonso has and the static positional sense he compliments both of them well, but like I said IMO Mascherano has put that into practise alot better. Although Xabi looks as though he's turned the corner finally which is good to see.

Just one other thing, "Gerrard doesnt make the midfield tick" ? I'd go one step further and say he makes the team tick mate.

In saying all that, I'd personally keep the Alonso/Gerrard partnership for Sunday, Alonso has definately improved from last season and although he has been caught a few times in possesion in potentially high risk areas, I think in the main his alround game has improved. As they've both earned the right IMO as starters, and I dont think we need to disrupt anything there, but according to some rumours Rafa could be placing Mascherano back in the midfield for Sunday.

He doesn't think about his position in the short game I'm on about. You completely fail to grasp the concept of what Gerrard is good at. You seem to think he's some sort of attacking midfield god that is there to force the issue every game. I'm telling you now lad, he's best employed exactly to the letter as he was against Everton. A box to box central midfielder who has to do the right things at the right time and play with a partner.

He was simply immense and Alonso next to him, was probably equal. Both of them worked as a team (mainly because of Xabi's positioning and the way he thinks) and it worked a treat for ninety minutes. Gerrard drifts and ball watches, as does Mascherano. Xabi is always thinking. His concentration is one of his best points, with Gerrard and Mascherano its one of there "weaknesses". I'm sick of hearing about this Gerrard driving forward, sometimes Alonso's going to drive forward, or carry the ball. Players need to work as a team and be able to both aspects of the game and the balance is ALOT better with Xabi and Stevie.

You completely fail again to understand this. Gerrard isn't at his best running with the ball for ninety minutes, he's at his best winning tackles, passing, running, shooting and doing everything in moderation. Not doing one thing for ninety minutes. You seem to just want him to get the ball and try and force something every time he gets it and do his "roy of the rovers" style stunts.

You seem to think that in a football match, Mascherano will always be behind Gerrard supporting him, you're wrong. At times it will be the other way round and its at those times with Mascherano in the side over Alonso that will cost us possession and creative force.

People generally count creativety as imagination and vision. Alonso has twice as much as Gerrard and Mascherano together. You're on about taking out of the team (one that struggles with creativety) a player who can hurt teams with passes that doesn't really conceed that many goals to include a player who's less creative and add more to the defence to allow us to be one dimensional from that area and only have Gerrard's drive as creativety. Yeah brilliant. Alonso passes the ball around, he plays the right pass, he plays it to people who are in dangerous positions, his passes are like Gerrard's driving runs, they hurt teams and cause problems.

I'm quite bored of this arguement with you anyway to be quite honest. You clearly rate Gerrard in the Scholes type of central midfielder rather than Keane and Vieira style so its pointless even debating it. You also seem to think that one player should do this and the other should do that. Well am sorry, its a team game. Both have to be good in both area's in a 4-4-2. Xabi and Stevie are both good in the opposition half and their own, Mascherano is not very good in the opposition half, he's average at best.

Whats worse is, you'll be the one telling us we lack creativety when Gerrard is in the middle with Mascherano and you'll be the one wondering why we aren't breaking teams down. Mascherano's less creative than Hamann ever was, we lacked creativety from that area of the pitch when Hamann and Gerrard used to play there... kind of says it all really.

[Scottbot]

It all depends on the game and the form of the players for me. Let's face it, if you were playing away to the mancs, Chelsea or Arsenal you would want all three players in the team. Same goes for a big European game, whether that means playing Gerrard on the right or in a free role. If it's just 2 from 3 then I would look at the form of the players. with Alonso playing so well and really grabbing his opportunity with Masch at the olympics I'd stick with the Gerrard/Xabi partnership. They were superb last week and deserve to play again this weekend, FWIW I don't think the manager will change the midfield this weekend.

I haven't written off Gerrard and Masch as a partnership but I'd say their partnership in the middle would be more effective with 2 genuinely dangerous wide-men either side and that is something we haven't really seen is it? Stu says they are flat when they play together and he is right but our ENTIRE midfield is pretty flat to be honest. We have a safety first manager and play with 2 banks of four much of the time with wide players more akin to grafting and making a tackle. On the flip side I recall BOTH Gerrard and Masch had an EXCELLENT game against Chelsea in the Champ League 2nd leg at Anfield two years back. they were both awesome that night. 

Still, for now I would stick with what we have. It's not the manager's style but I think he will do the same. If Masch plays this weekend then I'll bet Stevie pushes up and Keane sits it out.

[Fo Dne]

It all depends on the game and the form of the players for me. Let's face it, if you were playing away to the mancs, Chelsea or Arsenal you would want all three players in the team. Same goes for a big European game, whether that means playing Gerrard on the right or in a free role. If it's just 2 from 3 then I would look at the form of the players. with Alonso playing so well and really grabbing his opportunity with Masch at the olympics I'd stick with the Gerrard/Xabi partnership. They were superb last week and deserve to play again this weekend, FWIW I don't think the manager will change the midfield this weekend.

I haven't written off Gerrard and Masch as a partnership but I'd say their partnership in the middle would be more effective with 2 genuinely dangerous wide-men either side and that is something we haven't really seen is it? Stu says they are flat when they play together and he is right but our ENTIRE midfield is pretty flat to be honest. We have a safety first manager and play with 2 banks of four much of the time with wide players more akin to grafting and making a tackle. On the flip side I recall BOTH Gerrard and Masch had an EXCELLENT game against Chelsea in the Champ League 2nd leg at Anfield two years back. they were both awesome that night. 

Still, for now I would stick with what we have. It's not the manager's style but I think he will do the same. If Masch plays this weekend then I'll bet Stevie pushes up and Keane sits it out.

ell, you of all people should know it lad.

Spurs at home last season, Zakora bossed the two of them. Remember?

[Fo Dne]

It all depends on the game and the form of the players for me. Let's face it, if you were playing away to the mancs, Chelsea or Arsenal you would want all three players in the team. Same goes for a big European game, whether that means playing Gerrard on the right or in a free role. If it's just 2 from 3 then I would look at the form of the players. with Alonso playing so well and really grabbing his opportunity with Masch at the olympics I'd stick with the Gerrard/Xabi partnership. They were superb last week and deserve to play again this weekend, FWIW I don't think the manager will change the midfield this weekend.

I haven't written off Gerrard and Masch as a partnership but I'd say their partnership in the middle would be more effective with 2 genuinely dangerous wide-men either side and that is something we haven't really seen is it? Stu says they are flat when they play together and he is right but our ENTIRE midfield is pretty flat to be honest. We have a safety first manager and play with 2 banks of four much of the time with wide players more akin to grafting and making a tackle. On the flip side I recall BOTH Gerrard and Masch had an EXCELLENT game against Chelsea in the Champ League 2nd leg at Anfield two years back. they were both awesome that night. 

Still, for now I would stick with what we have. It's not the manager's style but I think he will do the same. If Masch plays this weekend then I'll bet Stevie pushes up and Keane sits it out.

Another thing, he will change it this weekend. I can guarentee it. Its not broke so Rafa will fix it.

[pass_da_dutchie]

only a total idiot couldn't see how good Steive and Masch are together...total waste of space this thread.

If you don't like it, don't post in it.  Simple.   

if you don't like my posts, don't read them. Simple. 

[account deleted by request]

only a total idiot couldn't see how good Steive and Masch are together...total waste of space this thread.

If you don't like it, don't post in it.  Simple.   

OK

[Scottbot]

It all depends on the game and the form of the players for me. Let's face it, if you were playing away to the mancs, Chelsea or Arsenal you would want all three players in the team. Same goes for a big European game, whether that means playing Gerrard on the right or in a free role. If it's just 2 from 3 then I would look at the form of the players. with Alonso playing so well and really grabbing his opportunity with Masch at the olympics I'd stick with the Gerrard/Xabi partnership. They were superb last week and deserve to play again this weekend, FWIW I don't think the manager will change the midfield this weekend.

I haven't written off Gerrard and Masch as a partnership but I'd say their partnership in the middle would be more effective with 2 genuinely dangerous wide-men either side and that is something we haven't really seen is it? Stu says they are flat when they play together and he is right but our ENTIRE midfield is pretty flat to be honest. We have a safety first manager and play with 2 banks of four much of the time with wide players more akin to grafting and making a tackle. On the flip side I recall BOTH Gerrard and Masch had an EXCELLENT game against Chelsea in the Champ League 2nd leg at Anfield two years back. they were both awesome that night. 

Still, for now I would stick with what we have. It's not the manager's style but I think he will do the same. If Masch plays this weekend then I'll bet Stevie pushes up and Keane sits it out.

ell, you of all people should know it lad.

Spurs at home last season, Zakora bossed the two of them. Remember?

Alright don't ave a Cow lad!!!

If ya look closely your'll see I said i'd stick with the Alonso-Gerrard combo. I also agree Masch-Gerrard are a bit flat together HOWEVER, if they regularly played in a side with genuine dangermen on the flanks this wouldn't be such an issue. As a side we rely on our strength through the middle of the park, we don't score a great deal of goals from incisive running down the flanks or crosses delivered into the box. This really polarizes the play of our centre mid-two and if they play well and get hold of the game, we play well. If Ronaldo has a bad game for the mancs, everyone notices, it's headline news. Does anyone raise an eyebrow if our wide players have a bad game? Not at all, they're not expected to do anything, just play a solid game and let the likes of Torres and Gerrard do the business.

All i'm saying is if you swapped Alves in for Arbeloa and Robben (or someone similar) in for Babel and the Masch/Gerrard or Alonso/Gerrard debate would become a lot less pertinent.