Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

Bam Bam! you're back!! I was worried sick because we were told that some long standing members perpetrated terrible actions against you, I feared the worst!!

[Bam]

Bam Bam! you're back!! I was worried sick because we were told that some long standing members perpetrated terrible actions against you, I feared the worst!!

[Redman in wales]

Average goals per game played as a combination :

Gerrard & Alonso : For 1.60, Against 0.53
Gerrard & Mascherano : For 2.30, Against 0.25
Alonso & Mascherano : For 2.00, Against 0.77
All three : For 1.8, Against 1.23

One or none : For 2.20, Against 0.90


Ironically the most goals are scored per game with Mascherano in the side and the most goals per game conceded!

Interesting... so as pairings go, Gerrard and Mash as a pairing played in games where we scored the most and conceeded the least... and conceeding the least by quite a way: conceeding a goal every 4 games as opposed to conceeding a goal every 2 games for Gerrard/Alonso (but still managing to help the team score more goals)

[WhIpLaSh]

Personal preferences aside then, you can't actually argue the stats. Very interesting...

[Jimmy the Weasel]

And yet we have failed to score in only 3 games this season and Alonso played in all three

Gerrard played in two of the three. Don't forget both Torres and Gerrard played little or no part in the win over the mancs, so it works both ways (absence and presence).

Here's the stats for the combinations (07/08 - 08/09) :-

Gerrard & Alonso : P17 W11 D4 L2 F27 A9 (Won 64.71%, CS 9)
Gerrard & Mascherano : P26 W16 D7 L3 F53 A 20 (Won 61.54%, CS 13)
Alonso & Mascherano : P4 W2 D2 L0 F9 A1 (Won 50.00%, CS 3)
All three : P13 W6 D5 L2 F23 A16 (Won 46.15%, CS 2)

One or none : P10 W6 D2 L2 F22 A9 (Won 60.00%, CS 4)

You'd expect a side with Mascherano combinations to score least and concede least :

Average goals per game played as a combination :

Gerrard & Alonso : For 1.60, Against 0.53
Gerrard & Mascherano : For 2.30, Against 0.25
Alonso & Mascherano : For 2.00, Against 0.77
All three : For 1.8, Against 1.23

One or none : For 2.20, Against 0.90


The records with them in the side individually since and including last season :

Gerrard : P61 W36 D17 L8 F115 A49 (Won 59.02%, CS 26)
Alonso : P36 W20 D11 L5 F61 A28 (Won 55.56%, CS 15)
Mascherano : P44 W25 D14 L5 F89 A37 (Won 56.82%, CS 19)

Ironically the most goals are scored per game with Mascherano in the side and the most goals per game conceded! I think the proof of the pudding is that even without Mascherano in the side we're not conceding lots of goals, the fact he doesn't score and isn't really creative has probably dawned on Rafa and he must appreciate after the manc game that scoring is more important than that extra bit of protection for a defence that often doesn't need it. If nothing else, the statistics prove the side doesn't concede more than a goal a game on average with or without Mascherano, so the other attributes kick in and Mascherano's strength doesn't lie elsewhere.

Maybe Mascherano did himself no favour going to the Olympics, made Rafa reassess his value to the team. We won three of the first four games without him and conceded just one goal. He played the next three and Liverpool won two out of three, but conceded twice. I may have suggested he should have picked up Tevez's run from deep in the game against the mancs. Who knows, maybe he's fallen out with Rafa

Great work on the stats - did you work that out yourself or do you have some source on the net?

You can't argue with that I don't think....

[maypaxvobiscum]

 

I wasn't dead I was just sleeping! Next thing I know I am 6 feet under with Bam by my side!

  i even made a thread for you with some lovely words 

[account deleted by request]

Bam Bam! you're back!!

Bam bam reunites with his long lost love .... Nanny

[Fo Dne]

Maybe you remember Makelele and Essien or Keane and Butt or Lee and Speed or Wise and Dechamps or Viera and Parlour or plenty of other ball winning central midfielders beside one and another.

Masch is world class, Stevie is world class and together they play world class. So open your eyes lad.

Do you mean Makelele and Essien who are completely different players and played as part of a central three?

Do you mean Keane and Butt, or Keane and Scholes?

Wise and Deschamps? What did they acheive?

Oh and Vieira and Parlour? Do you mean Vieira and Petit with Parlour on the right?




Good post lad. Really good post.

[Fo Dne]

Can you pass me your dutchie please, must be good sh!t that - Cally was a winger.

Actually I agree with the gist of your post.
McMahon/Whelan worked well too, as did McMahon/Molby which is more like Mach/Gerrard

Molby (more so than Whelan) and Whelan were passers mate who played with there brains rather than there muscle. Molby was very similar to Alonso in the way he passes the ball and choice of pass he plays.

They hurt teams by playing passes to drag players out of position.

[GYBS]

good stats owzat and show some proof that masher and gerrard work together

[Fo Dne]

And yet we have failed to score in only 3 games this season and Alonso played in all three

Gerrard played in two of the three. Don't forget both Torres and Gerrard played little or no part in the win over the mancs, so it works both ways (absence and presence).

Here's the stats for the combinations (07/08 - 08/09) :-

Gerrard & Alonso : P17 W11 D4 L2 F27 A9 (Won 64.71%, CS 9)
Gerrard & Mascherano : P26 W16 D7 L3 F53 A 20 (Won 61.54%, CS 13)
Alonso & Mascherano : P4 W2 D2 L0 F9 A1 (Won 50.00%, CS 3)
All three : P13 W6 D5 L2 F23 A16 (Won 46.15%, CS 2)

One or none : P10 W6 D2 L2 F22 A9 (Won 60.00%, CS 4)

You'd expect a side with Mascherano combinations to score least and concede least :

Average goals per game played as a combination :

Gerrard & Alonso : For 1.60, Against 0.53
Gerrard & Mascherano : For 2.30, Against 0.25
Alonso & Mascherano : For 2.00, Against 0.77
All three : For 1.8, Against 1.23

One or none : For 2.20, Against 0.90


The records with them in the side individually since and including last season :

Gerrard : P61 W36 D17 L8 F115 A49 (Won 59.02%, CS 26)
Alonso : P36 W20 D11 L5 F61 A28 (Won 55.56%, CS 15)
Mascherano : P44 W25 D14 L5 F89 A37 (Won 56.82%, CS 19)

Ironically the most goals are scored per game with Mascherano in the side and the most goals per game conceded! I think the proof of the pudding is that even without Mascherano in the side we're not conceding lots of goals, the fact he doesn't score and isn't really creative has probably dawned on Rafa and he must appreciate after the manc game that scoring is more important than that extra bit of protection for a defence that often doesn't need it. If nothing else, the statistics prove the side doesn't concede more than a goal a game on average with or without Mascherano, so the other attributes kick in and Mascherano's strength doesn't lie elsewhere.

Maybe Mascherano did himself no favour going to the Olympics, made Rafa reassess his value to the team. We won three of the first four games without him and conceded just one goal. He played the next three and Liverpool won two out of three, but conceded twice. I may have suggested he should have picked up Tevez's run from deep in the game against the mancs. Who knows, maybe he's fallen out with Rafa

Great work on the stats - did you work that out yourself or do you have some source on the net?

You can't argue with that I don't think....

Of course you can argue with it. They prove what you want them to prove. Do they tell you who we were playing? What the oppositions game plan was? Whether we were at home or away? Whether they played in the strongest team available?

Theres a massive list of things you can pick holes in. Also it doesn't prove anything about the balance or possession we had, it doesn't tell you whether that particular area of the side was functioning properly.

Etc, etc, etc, etc....

[Fo Dne]

Of course you can argue with it. They prove what you want them to prove. Do they tell you who we were playing? What the oppositions game plan was? Whether we were at home or away? Whether they played in the strongest team available?

Theres a massive list of things you can pick holes in. Also it doesn't prove anything about the balance or possession we had, it doesn't tell you whether that particular area of the side was functioning properly.

Etc, etc, etc, etc....

Thats like me picking out the Derby 6-0 at home last season as prove we're better without Gerrard as our biggest win came without him, or maybe even our best win this season came with Gerrard and Torres on the bench.

Stats are not the be all and end all. Especially in football. They're interesting, they help, they can show certain trends, but they certainly aren't not the be all and end all.

[GYBS]

Is us not having masher gerrard and xabi available not a good thing ? gives the manager options and choices depending on opposition and game ? all three seem to me to work together and now with xabi playing better we dont seem to me to loose much whoever is picked and all three bring something to the team that is required.

masher- the constant ball winning non stop hassling and tracking
xabi- the calm quarterback role
gerrard - all round brilliance with bursting runs from midfield

[Fo Dne]

Is us not having masher gerrard and xabi available not a good thing ? gives the manager options and choices depending on opposition and game ? all three seem to me to work together and now with xabi playing better we dont seem to me to loose much whoever is picked and all three bring something to the team that is required.

masher- the constant ball winning non stop hassling and tracking
xabi- the calm quarterback role
gerrard - all round brilliance with bursting runs from midfield

Good post...

[Sabre]

Of course you can argue with it. They prove what you want them to prove. Do they tell you who we were playing? What the oppositions game plan was? Whether we were at home or away? Whether they played in the strongest team available?

Theres a massive list of things you can pick holes in. Also it doesn't prove anything about the balance or possession we had, it doesn't tell you whether that particular area of the side was functioning properly.

Etc, etc, etc, etc....

Thats like me picking out the Derby 6-0 at home last season as prove we're better without Gerrard as our biggest win came without him, or maybe even our best win this season came with Gerrard and Torres on the bench.

Stats are not the be all and end all. Especially in football. They're interesting, they help, they can show certain trends, but they certainly aren't not the be all and end all.

Exactly.

It's like picking this stat

Gerrard & Alonso : P17 W11 D4 L2 F27 A9 (Won 64.71%, CS 9)
Gerrard & Mascherano : P26 W16 D7 L3 F53 A 20 (Won 61.54%, CS 13)
Alonso & Mascherano : P4 W2 D2 L0 F9 A1 (Won 50.00%, CS 3)
All three : P13 W6 D5 L2 F23 A16 (Won 46.15%, CS 2)

And saying, "so, even with Alonso under his best, Gerrard and Alonso together still managed to win more games than the other pairings, and what we need is wins, not draws". It would be a biased reading of the stats, stats that simply do not take into consideration many variables and are not conditioned to other variables, simply must be handled with care.