Mascherano and gerrard - Can someone please explain this?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Bam » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:30 am

Fo Dne wrote:
Bam wrote:Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

Thought you'd left! :laugh:

I did  :D  and it coinceded with our good form, it had feck all to do with Xabi you know.

Anyway I couldnt let you carry on making bias posts and converting everyone to your way of thinking.
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Postby Bam » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:31 am

Number 9 wrote:Welcome back you huffy kunt! :D

I want my money back for that Gravestone you knocked up.  :D
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:36 am

Bam wrote:Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

Good post mate
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Postby Number 9 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:45 am

I still think that with all 3 being so good our best option is to play Gerrard right Alonso and Masch in the middle and Riera left!
If Gerrard stays in the centre and we stick with 4-4-2 either Alonso or Masch will have to be dropped.Sorry but both are too good to be on the bench and much as Gerrard is world class in the centre he's great out right as well...plus Kuyt gets dropped which will please plenty on here!
Get the best players on the pitch and stick with them.
Tell them they are the starting 11,but also tell them that the first match that they do not look like they are giving 110% they are dropped until they prove they will next time they play.
Make them play for the right to start the next game every time they play.

Fuc'k all this rotating shi'te,it takes away the competition in the squad for places and players slack off!.Players need to be kept on their toes...only then will we see the best of them all!
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Postby pass_da_dutchie » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:03 am

whoever this stu lad is, he needs a real slap.

"Gerrard's passes occasionly hurt sides" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: giz a sec, I might be done. *four hours later* :laugh: What a load of :censored: lad, Gerrard always hurts sides with his passing, how the :censored: does Alonso always hurt sides when most of the game he's stuck five yards in front of our back four?

As for two ball players can't play in the same side? I might need another four hours here. Do you remember Ian Callaghan and Jimmy Case beside each other? Ian Callaghan was the Steven Gerrard of his day, could do everything, esepcially break up play. Jimmy Case was just one hard :censored: who you'd give the ball to if he looked at you and if you didn't he went and won it with crunching tackles and the odd right hook. Maybe you remember Graeme Souness and Jimmy Case pairing each other in the centre of the field. Souness overtook Callaghan as the complete central midfielder and Case still went and give people a good kicking. Maybe you remember Makelele and Essien or Keane and Butt or Lee and Speed or Wise and Dechamps or Viera and Parlour or plenty of other ball winning central midfielders beside one and another.

Masch is world class, Stevie is world class and together they play world class. So open your eyes lad.
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Postby agoodmentality » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:12 am

We should all know by now that we don't have a team, we have a SQUAD,

Mash and Stevie don't have to be a match made in heavan, they just have to know their job, do their job and make sure we get the result.

Mash doesn't need to play in every home game, and don't rule out seeing more "Stevie the second Striker" when it comes to the business end .

Just be happy we've got two of the best midfielders in the world at our club.

( At least until Man City put a £150M joint bid in for them )
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Postby Effes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:12 am

Can you pass me your dutchie please, must be good sh!t that - Cally was a winger.

Actually I agree with the gist of your post.
McMahon/Whelan worked well too, as did McMahon/Molby which is more like Mach/Gerrard
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Postby Kharhaz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:20 am

Effes wrote:Can you pass me your dutchie please, must be good sh!t that - Cally was a winger.

Actually I agree with the gist of your post.
McMahon/Whelan worked well too, as did McMahon/Molby which is more like Mach/Gerrard

Have to disagree. If Gerrard had the passing ability of Molby he truly would be out of this world.
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Postby pass_da_dutchie » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:28 am

Effes wrote:Can you pass me your dutchie please, must be good sh!t that - Cally was a winger.

Actually I agree with the gist of your post.
McMahon/Whelan worked well too, as did McMahon/Molby which is more like Mach/Gerrard

Cally started very much as a winger but when he lost his pace towards the end of his career he moved into the middle of the park to partner Souness/McDermott/Case/Kennedy.

When he partnered Case it was often Heighway right wing and Ray Kennedy left.
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Postby Number 9 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:29 am

Bam wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Welcome back you huffy kunt! :D

I want my money back for that Gravestone you knocked up.  :D

:no
No can do mate.
I cant be responsible for peoples temperamental ways.
People should just be composed enough in their head before they declare themselves dead and maybe have a time out.
If i gave refunds I'd be fuc,ked cause Saint and Manhattan came back from the dead so did LegBarnes...Ciggys is being carved as we speak but she'll probably be alive again before its finished!Thats what im up against..Its like the serpent and the rainbow on here with so many coming back to life I sometimes think im in Haiti!
As an act of good will,I will however,if you ever die again offer half price marble as opposed to the cheap and tacky granite you had last time and a free handbag to place on top!
All fuc'king heart me!
Good to see ya back! :)
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:42 am

:laugh: 

I wasn't dead I was just sleeping! Next thing I know I am 6 feet under with Bam by my side!
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Postby LegBarnes » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:48 am

Number 9 wrote:
Bam wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Welcome back you huffy kunt! :D

I want my money back for that Gravestone you knocked up.  :D

:no
No can do mate.
I cant be responsible for peoples temperamental ways.
People should just be composed enough in their head before they declare themselves dead and maybe have a time out.
If i gave refunds I'd be fuc,ked cause Saint and Manhattan came back from the dead so did LegBarnes...Ciggys is being carved as we speak but she'll probably be alive again before its finished!Thats what im up against..Its like the serpent and the rainbow on here with so many coming back to life I sometimes think im in Haiti!
As an act of good will,I will however,if you ever die again offer half price marble as opposed to the cheap and tacky granite you had last time and a free handbag to place on top!
All fuc'king heart me!
Good to see ya back! :)

Hey wouldn't life just be boring if we was all so calm.

World be like The waltons on repeat.   :laugh:
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Postby desmdlow » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:40 am

I think the major factor this season is that gerrard is more discipline in midfield. He seems to be told to dictate the pace of the game further back the pitch then when he is employed in the 'hole'. And i think this will help us balance his play together with mash. Both of them like to be where the ball is and not find space for either to pass the ball out. But with the new discipline Gerrard now have i think it will be different. And i think Mash will get better as well after seeing how xabi complement Gerrard. He is still quite young and learning btw..Makelele is an old head we must remember..
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Postby Toffeehater » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:01 am

Bam wrote:Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

spot on mate , fecking quality post
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Postby Owzat » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:45 am

s@int wrote:And yet we have failed to score in only 3 games this season and Alonso played in all three

Gerrard played in two of the three. Don't forget both Torres and Gerrard played little or no part in the win over the mancs, so it works both ways (absence and presence).

Here's the stats for the combinations (07/08 - 08/09) :-

Gerrard & Alonso : P17 W11 D4 L2 F27 A9 (Won 64.71%, CS 9)
Gerrard & Mascherano : P26 W16 D7 L3 F53 A 20 (Won 61.54%, CS 13)
Alonso & Mascherano : P4 W2 D2 L0 F9 A1 (Won 50.00%, CS 3)
All three : P13 W6 D5 L2 F23 A16 (Won 46.15%, CS 2)

One or none : P10 W6 D2 L2 F22 A9 (Won 60.00%, CS 4)

You'd expect a side with Mascherano combinations to score least and concede least :

Average goals per game played as a combination :

Gerrard & Alonso : For 1.60, Against 0.53
Gerrard & Mascherano : For 2.30, Against 0.25
Alonso & Mascherano : For 2.00, Against 0.77
All three : For 1.8, Against 1.23

One or none : For 2.20, Against 0.90


The records with them in the side individually since and including last season :

Gerrard : P61 W36 D17 L8 F115 A49 (Won 59.02%, CS 26)
Alonso : P36 W20 D11 L5 F61 A28 (Won 55.56%, CS 15)
Mascherano : P44 W25 D14 L5 F89 A37 (Won 56.82%, CS 19)

Ironically the most goals are scored per game with Mascherano in the side and the most goals per game conceded! I think the proof of the pudding is that even without Mascherano in the side we're not conceding lots of goals, the fact he doesn't score and isn't really creative has probably dawned on Rafa and he must appreciate after the manc game that scoring is more important than that extra bit of protection for a defence that often doesn't need it. If nothing else, the statistics prove the side doesn't concede more than a goal a game on average with or without Mascherano, so the other attributes kick in and Mascherano's strength doesn't lie elsewhere.

Maybe Mascherano did himself no favour going to the Olympics, made Rafa reassess his value to the team. We won three of the first four games without him and conceded just one goal. He played the next three and Liverpool won two out of three, but conceded twice. I may have suggested he should have picked up Tevez's run from deep in the game against the mancs. Who knows, maybe he's fallen out with Rafa
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