Liverpool FC Forum

[Jimmy the Weasel]

I think we should expect more from Mascherano in an attacking sense.

He's a top-class defensive midfielder, but everyone we play knows this and allows him space on the ball in the attacking third - I'd like to see him stroll up into that space and crack a shot into the top corner a bit more often, especially against teams that sit back where his defensive qualities are not called upon as often - games like those he needs an attacking threat.

He can do it, his run against Man Utd created the winner, but he doesn't do it enough I don't think.

[Leonmc0708]

I have been one of the many who have been HUGELY impressed by MAscherano. The lad is the best player in his postion in the World for me.

I have however been reminded of just how good Gerrard and Alonso can be when they have paired up the last few games.

Great great problem to have as a manager.

[Leonmc0708]

I think we should expect more from Mascherano in an attacking sense.

He's a top-class defensive midfielder, but everyone we play knows this and allows him space on the ball in the attacking third - I'd like to see him stroll up into that space and crack a shot into the top corner a bit more often, especially against teams that sit back where his defensive qualities are not called upon as often - games like those he needs an attacking threat.

He can do it, his run against Man Utd created the winner, but he doesn't do it enough I don't think.

Chelsea won the leage on the back of MAkelele doing zilch attacking wise, you dont have to have your sitter attacking.

[account deleted by request]

I have been one of the many who have been HUGELY impressed by MAscherano. The lad is the best player in his postion in the World for me.

I have however been reminded of just how good Gerrard and Alonso can be when they have paired up the last few games.

Great great problem to have as a manager.

Spot on Leon

[Jimmy the Weasel]

I think we should expect more from Mascherano in an attacking sense.

He's a top-class defensive midfielder, but everyone we play knows this and allows him space on the ball in the attacking third - I'd like to see him stroll up into that space and crack a shot into the top corner a bit more often, especially against teams that sit back where his defensive qualities are not called upon as often - games like those he needs an attacking threat.

He can do it, his run against Man Utd created the winner, but he doesn't do it enough I don't think.

Chelsea won the leage on the back of MAkelele doing zilch attacking wise, you dont have to have your sitter attacking.

You seem to ignore the main point I was trying to make - if we play Mascherano against these "lesser teams" who don't attack, then we need more from him than his usual busy, ball-winning domination.

Did Chelsea have many issues breaking down teams who parked the bus? We do. Hence that point means nothing really.

[Number 9]

I think we should expect more from Mascherano in an attacking sense.

He's a top-class defensive midfielder, but everyone we play knows this and allows him space on the ball in the attacking third - I'd like to see him stroll up into that space and crack a shot into the top corner a bit more often, especially against teams that sit back where his defensive qualities are not called upon as often - games like those he needs an attacking threat.

He can do it, his run against Man Utd created the winner, but he doesn't do it enough I don't think.

Chelsea won the leage on the back of MAkelele doing zilch attacking wise, you dont have to have your sitter attacking.

You seem to ignore the main point I was trying to make - if we play Mascherano against these "lesser teams" who don't attack, then we need more from him than his usual busy, ball-winning domination.

Did Chelsea have many issues breaking down teams who parked the bus? We do. Hence that point means nothing really.

I think you totally misunderstand what type of player Mascherano is mate!His job is to break up other teams in play before they cause danger to our backline.......he does it impeccably and is one of the best in the world at it.
As for expecting more from him in an attacking sense thats not his job and its almost 100% certain that he never will add that to his game.He gets the ball,while hes getting the ball the other players around him find space and he plays a simple pass(like Hamman or Makelele did so well) turning our opponents attack into an LFC attack in the process...its really that simple!

As for the "lesser teams" thingy.I dont agree atall,even lesser teams get the ball in MF and need to be robbed of it.Still Masch should not and wont venture forward too much because he knows that if LFC loose the ball and the lesser team play it through the middle there will be a great big hole and it will be his fault if anything comes of it in their favour because he has neglected his post.
No matter who is partnering him in MF on any given day its always gonna be Maschs job to protect the back 4 and we are very lucky to have him there!

[Jimmy the Weasel]

I think we should expect more from Mascherano in an attacking sense.

He's a top-class defensive midfielder, but everyone we play knows this and allows him space on the ball in the attacking third - I'd like to see him stroll up into that space and crack a shot into the top corner a bit more often, especially against teams that sit back where his defensive qualities are not called upon as often - games like those he needs an attacking threat.

He can do it, his run against Man Utd created the winner, but he doesn't do it enough I don't think.

Chelsea won the leage on the back of MAkelele doing zilch attacking wise, you dont have to have your sitter attacking.

You seem to ignore the main point I was trying to make - if we play Mascherano against these "lesser teams" who don't attack, then we need more from him than his usual busy, ball-winning domination.

Did Chelsea have many issues breaking down teams who parked the bus? We do. Hence that point means nothing really.

I think you totally misunderstand what type of player Mascherano is mate!His job is to break up other teams in play before they cause danger to our backline.......he does it impeccably and is one of the best in the world at it.
As for expecting more from him in an attacking sense thats not his job and its almost 100% certain that he never will add that to his game.He gets the ball,while hes getting the ball the other players around him find space and he plays a simple pass(like Hamman or Makelele did so well) turning our opponents attack into an LFC attack in the process...its really that simple!

As for the "lesser teams" thingy.I dont agree atall,even lesser teams get the ball in MF and need to be robbed of it.Still Masch should not and wont venture forward too much because he knows that if LFC loose the ball and the lesser team play it through the middle there will be a great big hole and it will be his fault if anything comes of it in their favour because he has neglected his post.
No matter who is partnering him in MF on any given day its always gonna be Maschs job to protect the back 4 and we are very lucky to have him there!

No, I completely understand what his game is - and I agree he is the best in the world at it.

I'm saying that teams back off him because they know he offers no goal threat. He doesn't need to add anything new to his game, as I've already said he's demonstrated he can do it, he just doesn't - whether through instruction or confidence or something else.

If Gerrard got the ball in some of the positions Mascherano does, there'd be tackles flying in and people around him desperate to block the shot. Mascherano gets that bit more space - I just think it would give teams something to think about if he could make better use of it.

[Number 9]

Yeah mate i know but its not his natural game!
Im really not worried about breaking teams down this season.Yes we drew with Villa at their ground which was dissapointing at the time but in hindsight they are a damn good side this season.And they parked the bus AT HOME!
Then theres the Stoke game,yes again dissapointing but they defended well and in reality there is never gonna be a game in our next 100 when we dominate so much and have so many chances and fail to score!

They are both history and might as well be put to the back of our minds.
The reason I dont think we will struggle much longer is because Keane and Torres will get it together soon..im 100% sure of it..with those two on fire we wont be missing as many chances,plus its fair to say Keane will do his own fair share of creating as well!
Masch is fine as he is in my opinion!

[Jimmy the Weasel]

Yeah mate i know but its not his natural game!
Im really not worried about breaking teams down this season.Yes we drew with Villa at their ground which was dissapointing at the time but in hindsight they are a damn good side this season.And they parked the bus AT HOME!
Then theres the Stoke game,yes again dissapointing but they defended well and in reality there is never gonna be a game in our next 100 when we dominate so much and have so many chances and fail to score!

They are both history and might as well be put to the back of our minds.
The reason I dont think we will struggle much longer is because Keane and Torres will get it together soon..im 100% sure of it..with those two on fire we wont be missing as many chances,plus its fair to say Keane will do his own fair share of creating as well!
Masch is fine as he is in my opinion!

I'm not talking radical changes or improvements - as I said I think he's genuine world class.

Just smack one when he gets in range - and he's a damn good dribbler when he decides he's going on one!

[Fo Dne]

I think we should expect more from Mascherano in an attacking sense.

He's a top-class defensive midfielder, but everyone we play knows this and allows him space on the ball in the attacking third - I'd like to see him stroll up into that space and crack a shot into the top corner a bit more often, especially against teams that sit back where his defensive qualities are not called upon as often - games like those he needs an attacking threat.

He can do it, his run against Man Utd created the winner, but he doesn't do it enough I don't think.

Chelsea won the leage on the back of MAkelele doing zilch attacking wise, you dont have to have your sitter attacking.

You seem to ignore the main point I was trying to make - if we play Mascherano against these "lesser teams" who don't attack, then we need more from him than his usual busy, ball-winning domination.

Did Chelsea have many issues breaking down teams who parked the bus? We do. Hence that point means nothing really.

I think you totally misunderstand what type of player Mascherano is mate!His job is to break up other teams in play before they cause danger to our backline.......he does it impeccably and is one of the best in the world at it.
As for expecting more from him in an attacking sense thats not his job and its almost 100% certain that he never will add that to his game.He gets the ball,while hes getting the ball the other players around him find space and he plays a simple pass(like Hamman or Makelele did so well) turning our opponents attack into an LFC attack in the process...its really that simple!

As for the "lesser teams" thingy.I dont agree atall,even lesser teams get the ball in MF and need to be robbed of it.Still Masch should not and wont venture forward too much because he knows that if LFC loose the ball and the lesser team play it through the middle there will be a great big hole and it will be his fault if anything comes of it in their favour because he has neglected his post.
No matter who is partnering him in MF on any given day its always gonna be Maschs job to protect the back 4 and we are very lucky to have him there!

His ability to play the simple pass isn't the same as Hamann's or Makelele's. Both of which used the ball far better than Mascherano by quite a distance. Makelele's passing was impecable and he dictated the pace of the game, he had a bit of vision in his passes aswell. He was no Alonso or Scholes, but he was a hell of a lot better than Javier in this area of the game.

[Bam]

Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

[Effes]

So are some people suggesting Masch and Gerrard is as defunked as Lampard and Gerrard?

I'm not convinced that it'll NEVER work - surely this is something Rafa could/should sort out?

[Fo Dne]

Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

Thought you'd left!

[Number 9]

Welcome back you huffy kunt!

[Fo Dne]

Stu I read your appreciation of Gerrards quality display at Goodison last weekend. Both him and Alonso were outstanding for us, but the way I read it now is ....... Gerrard can only be that player when paired up with Xabi ?

Talk about taking everything away from Peter to give to Paul.

Whatever you think about Gerrard as a player, and from where I sit your opinions change quite regularly about him. I.E one week he can be "disciplined" enough in his position to intelligently play in that position, making his lung busting runs at the right time. To the next week, where he lacks intelligence and discipline to play in the central role. Those werent your words, but thats the kind of stuff you spout week in week out.

I have no doubt that playing alongside Mascha Gerrard will still be that quality player, who can infact create, dictate and have the passing ability and vision to open up defences. He played a lovely weighted pass to Torres the other night against PSV down the right flank, and for me that was the best pass of the match. Pair him with Mascha and he suddenly doesnt lose that quality (their not siamese twins) for one to function you need the others brain.

What I do feel though at the moment is, Xabi is again hitting top form and by christ we've waited for it. But one swallow doesnt make a summer, if he can keep up his form and partnership with Gerrard than the two deserve to make a go of it. Simple really, that Mascha has to bust a gut to get back into the side on merit rather than mere rotation. I'm fine with that.

For all the accolades Alonso gets on here, I see him as player who sits deep breaks up play, albeit not quite as well as Mascha. Then spreads the ball around and dictates the tempo of the game, I wouldnt neccessarily call that creative, what Gerrard does next to him IMO is creative. Firstly by getting someway over the half way line, picking out Torres as regulary as he can to set him through clean on goal. Or it maybe another passage of play where Stevie is inventing creativity. Believe me, and I dont care how much you disagree with me, or tell me I'm wrong Gerrard is the most creative CM and player we have at our club. He'll still be that player with Mascha alongside him, granted Mascha will not have some of the attributes Alonso has but visa versa to.

Where as Xabi will ping passes around, and trying to pick the odd hollywood ball out every now and then, Mascha will break up play, and play it simple or even carry the ball out of defence and turn it into attack.

I think you are missing something Stu, and thats the sight of seeing Gerrard play equally well with Mascha and Alonso, and being able to give credit on a consistent basis where its due to him. Equally you say many here overate Mascha, I could say the same thing said about Alonso, people of stated he's this creative force in midfield that we cannot do without. He isnt, his quality is keeping possesion, dictating the passage of play with his passing, the creative stuff is in his partners locker and not his.

Ideally both Mascha and Alonso compliment Gerrard well in theory, except IMO Mascha has put that into practise alot more consistantly than Alonso has in the past. But now it seems Alonso is finally turning the corner Rafa has a headache in who to pick, which can only be good for the team.

Quite simple. Mascherano's brain is average. Gerrard's is decent. Alonso's is top class.

Gerrard doesn't always think about his position, Alonso does. Mascherano certainly doesn't. When playing togther they are ALWAYS flat. When Alonso and Gerrard play together they are very really flat and they only occassionally play square balls to each other in our half. Usually one is ten yards infront of the other and its usually Alonso that starts the higher up the pitch out of the two and Gerrard by passes him.

Mascherano doesn't give Gerrard the ball in the right area's and Gerrard doesn't make a midfield tick. He can only play at one pace and I am telling you now, had he played next to Mascherano the other day, instead of Alonso, the performance from them both would have been nowhere near the 90 minutes of domination we witnessed.

Alonso's ability to play the correct pass is so underated by our fans its a joke. His passes hurt teams, Gerrard's occassionally do and Mascherano's just simply don't. Alonso used the ball intelligently with vision and quality that Gerrard and Mascherano can only dream of having. Simple as that.

So why play Mascherano and Gerrard in the same midfield when they are effectively the same player only Gerrard's alot better going forward.

At the end of the day, if you can't see the lack of balance when Gerrard and Mascherano play together thats down to you. The team lacks creativety as it is and you're suggesting playing yet another ball winner in the middle rather than a passer with vision...