Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Torres was "below his best" this past season as well, relative to the numbers he put up in his first season for us, but no one really has begrudged him that given his poor luck with injuries. 

Yeah 14 league goals in 20 starts is not good enough. get rid.  

[Toffeehater]

You do have a point but we stood by xabi for 3 seasons when he wasn't at his best . Yes form is temporary , class is permanent but for 3 seasons we had yet to see him replicate the form that he did in his first season , than suddenly last season , the xabi alonso of the old returned with a brilliant season , argubably better than his first season with us. Its just that i don't understand why he hasn't come out and said that he not interested with a move , which means he is contemplating the idea . He was a former real sociedad player and moving to madrid will be like torres from athletico going over to real , stevie moving to everton or manure. He is a born and bred basque as well.
If he does go , he's no different from ronaldo , he doesn't have a excuse , being almost sold is not one when he himself knows he wasn't at his best

Let's not forget those "below his best" seasons involved some significant time missed for injuries.  Torres was "below his best" this past season as well, relative to the numbers he put up in his first season for us, but no one really has begrudged him that given his poor luck with injuries.  Yet, Alonso doesn't seem to get the same benefit of the doubt with some.

  , ok now injuries are the excuses ? Fine lets say he was injured for half a season , still 2 and a half seasons where he was below his best . As for torres well bob thats a poor poor arguement , 14 goals in 20 starts , yes he has had games where he's been below his best but still its an amazing feat and torres has had worse injuries this season than xabi and still he has had a pretty good season torres.

[Dundalk]

They are not going away

[heimdall]

Thats a fair enough post mick but don't foget xabi wasn't at his best for 3 seasons after his first , this barry saga was exactly the kick he needed up the backside and he has performed much much better since . He has to remember that rafa stood by him for 3 seasons awaiting his best and xabi didn't deliver and thus he went on to look for a replacement , now that xabi has found his form back , he should be thankful in a way that the barry saga worked out perfectly for him and he now has a host of clubs interested in him .I feel that masch also is the reason why xabi has been much better thus season . He also came back to form coincidentally when he and masch have been playing together for the most part of this season , masch clears and does the dirty work and xabi is allowed to play his game without having to worry much about the defensive side of it .

As for Mascherano i think he's looking for a pay rise to stay as well , 30k a week is bull tbh for a player of his calibre and if i had to pick now one to stay , i'd say masch , he wears his heart on his sleeve and the only other motivating factor which will force him to move like your mentioned is his wife.

This excuse about the money is bullsh1t in my opinion, if he was dumb enough to sign a contract where he earns so "little", which I very much doubt by the way, then he has to live with it. What would happen to us if we start working at a company for a good salary and then almost immediately start to bitch and moan about it, I'm sure we'd find ourselves on the street before too long.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't really like Mascha, if I'm very honest I don't really like Argentinian players, they are skilful but in terms of personality, loyalty and ethics it's not so good.

, you just made my day sir. Would you think 30k a week is fair for him ? Based on his performances this last 2 season i'd say he deserves a raise. FFS players like carrick , scholes , anderson are all above 50k and to be fair masch is much better than them . Loyalty wise , now thats just , masch wears his heart on his sleeve , he's passionate about the club and gives his all in every match. Messi has rejected moves a couple of times , masch has turned barca down once and i'm confident he will do it again. That statment about argentina players not being loyal is a bang out of order mate , the only one you can take into account is the money grabbing tevez

Heinze and Veron spring to mind in addition to Tevez and why would Messi leave, he's playing for arguably the best team in the world at the moment. BTW in what way is Mascha showing his loyalty to the club at the moment, is it all the times recently he has come out and said, "transfer no don't be ridiculous, I love Liverpool with every fibre of my being and would never do anything to provoke a payrise on a contract I was dumb enough to sign"

incidentally do we knwo for a fact that he's only on £25k a week, times must be hard for the little fellow, only £25k a week, my heart bleeds.

BTW I f I had my way none of these players would earn more than £10,000 a week, that way maybe ticket prices could be lowered, it's fecking obscene how much these footballers earn when there is so much poverty in the world.

[aCe']

Thats a fair enough post mick but don't foget xabi wasn't at his best for 3 seasons after his first , this barry saga was exactly the kick he needed up the backside and he has performed much much better since . He has to remember that rafa stood by him for 3 seasons awaiting his best and xabi didn't deliver and thus he went on to look for a replacement , now that xabi has found his form back , he should be thankful in a way that the barry saga worked out perfectly for him and he now has a host of clubs interested in him .I feel that masch also is the reason why xabi has been much better thus season . He also came back to form coincidentally when he and masch have been playing together for the most part of this season , masch clears and does the dirty work and xabi is allowed to play his game without having to worry much about the defensive side of it .

As for Mascherano i think he's looking for a pay rise to stay as well , 30k a week is bull tbh for a player of his calibre and if i had to pick now one to stay , i'd say masch , he wears his heart on his sleeve and the only other motivating factor which will force him to move like your mentioned is his wife.

This excuse about the money is bullsh1t in my opinion, if he was dumb enough to sign a contract where he earns so "little", which I very much doubt by the way, then he has to live with it. What would happen to us if we start working at a company for a good salary and then almost immediately start to bitch and moan about it, I'm sure we'd find ourselves on the street before too long.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't really like Mascha, if I'm very honest I don't really like Argentinian players, they are skilful but in terms of personality, loyalty and ethics it's not so good.

, you just made my day sir. Would you think 30k a week is fair for him ? Based on his performances this last 2 season i'd say he deserves a raise. FFS players like carrick , scholes , anderson are all above 50k and to be fair masch is much better than them . Loyalty wise , now thats just , masch wears his heart on his sleeve , he's passionate about the club and gives his all in every match. Messi has rejected moves a couple of times , masch has turned barca down once and i'm confident he will do it again. That statment about argentina players not being loyal is a bang out of order mate , the only one you can take into account is the money grabbing tevez

Heinze and Veron spring to mind in addition to Tevez and why would Messi leave, he's playing for arguably the best team in the world at the moment. BTW in what way is Mascha showing his loyalty to the club at the moment, is it all the times recently he has come out and said, "transfer no don't be ridiculous, I love Liverpool with every fibre of my being and would never do anything to provoke a payrise on a contract I was dumb enough to sign"

incidentally do we knwo for a fact that he's only on £25k a week, times must be hard for the little fellow, only £25k a week, my heart bleeds.

BTW I f I had my way none of these players would earn more than £10,000 a week, that way maybe ticket prices could be lowered, it's fecking obscene how much these footballers earn when there is so much poverty in the world.

give it a break Kofi...

What did Heinze and Veron do ? Heinze wasnt starting regularly for his side and decided to move on ... pretty much same with Veron... just didnt work out for them at ManUtd...
Teves was offered a huge deal by Utd and rejected it... im not so sure hes too fond of ManCity but what are his other options given that he wants to stay in England for family reasons ?
Liverpool ? He said no because he respects the Utd fans ... that counts for something now doesnt it... the exact opposite of what your saying Albert....

Not all football players are money grabbing twwats if they decide to reject us... some just see other clubs as better prospects for them to improve as players or win silverware (mascherano) or get more chances at the international stage (barry)...etc etc
Some just wanna be respected by their clubs or managers (Alonso, Teves)... has nothing to do with nationality imo...

Personally, im not too bothered about the whole Mascherano thing... dont think it would have much of an effect on our overall level of performances if we lost him and replaced him with someone who offers similar qualities to the side...

[RobinHood6969]

Thats a fair enough post mick but don't foget xabi wasn't at his best for 3 seasons after his first , this barry saga was exactly the kick he needed up the backside and he has performed much much better since . He has to remember that rafa stood by him for 3 seasons awaiting his best and xabi didn't deliver and thus he went on to look for a replacement , now that xabi has found his form back , he should be thankful in a way that the barry saga worked out perfectly for him and he now has a host of clubs interested in him .I feel that masch also is the reason why xabi has been much better thus season . He also came back to form coincidentally when he and masch have been playing together for the most part of this season , masch clears and does the dirty work and xabi is allowed to play his game without having to worry much about the defensive side of it .

As for Mascherano i think he's looking for a pay rise to stay as well , 30k a week is bull tbh for a player of his calibre and if i had to pick now one to stay , i'd say masch , he wears his heart on his sleeve and the only other motivating factor which will force him to move like your mentioned is his wife.

This excuse about the money is bullsh1t in my opinion, if he was dumb enough to sign a contract where he earns so "little", which I very much doubt by the way, then he has to live with it. What would happen to us if we start working at a company for a good salary and then almost immediately start to bitch and moan about it, I'm sure we'd find ourselves on the street before too long.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't really like Mascha, if I'm very honest I don't really like Argentinian players, they are skilful but in terms of personality, loyalty and ethics it's not so good.

, you just made my day sir. Would you think 30k a week is fair for him ? Based on his performances this last 2 season i'd say he deserves a raise. FFS players like carrick , scholes , anderson are all above 50k and to be fair masch is much better than them . Loyalty wise , now thats just , masch wears his heart on his sleeve , he's passionate about the club and gives his all in every match. Messi has rejected moves a couple of times , masch has turned barca down once and i'm confident he will do it again. That statment about argentina players not being loyal is a bang out of order mate , the only one you can take into account is the money grabbing tevez

Heinze and Veron spring to mind in addition to Tevez and why would Messi leave, he's playing for arguably the best team in the world at the moment. BTW in what way is Mascha showing his loyalty to the club at the moment, is it all the times recently he has come out and said, "transfer no don't be ridiculous, I love Liverpool with every fibre of my being and would never do anything to provoke a payrise on a contract I was dumb enough to sign"

incidentally do we knwo for a fact that he's only on £25k a week, times must be hard for the little fellow, only £25k a week, my heart bleeds.

BTW I f I had my way none of these players would earn more than £10,000 a week, that way maybe ticket prices could be lowered, it's fecking obscene how much these footballers earn when there is so much poverty in the world.

give it a break Kofi...

What did Heinze and Veron do ? Heinze wasnt starting regularly for his side and decided to move on ... pretty much same with Veron... just didnt work out for them at ManUtd...
Teves was offered a huge deal by Utd and rejected it... im not so sure hes too fond of ManCity but what are his other options given that he wants to stay in England for family reasons ?
Liverpool ? He said no because he respects the Utd fans ... that counts for something now doesnt it... the exact opposite of what your saying Albert....

Not all football players are money grabbing twwats if they decide to reject us... some just see other clubs as better prospects for them to improve as players or win silverware (mascherano) or get more chances at the international stage (barry)...etc etc
Some just wanna be respected by their clubs or managers (Alonso, Teves)... has nothing to do with nationality imo...

Personally, im not too bothered about the whole Mascherano thing... dont think it would have much of an effect on our overall level of performances if we lost him and replaced him with someone who offers similar qualities to the side...

We should get Daniele D Rossi..Heck of a player

[Toffeehater]

Thats a fair enough post mick but don't foget xabi wasn't at his best for 3 seasons after his first , this barry saga was exactly the kick he needed up the backside and he has performed much much better since . He has to remember that rafa stood by him for 3 seasons awaiting his best and xabi didn't deliver and thus he went on to look for a replacement , now that xabi has found his form back , he should be thankful in a way that the barry saga worked out perfectly for him and he now has a host of clubs interested in him .I feel that masch also is the reason why xabi has been much better thus season . He also came back to form coincidentally when he and masch have been playing together for the most part of this season , masch clears and does the dirty work and xabi is allowed to play his game without having to worry much about the defensive side of it .

As for Mascherano i think he's looking for a pay rise to stay as well , 30k a week is bull tbh for a player of his calibre and if i had to pick now one to stay , i'd say masch , he wears his heart on his sleeve and the only other motivating factor which will force him to move like your mentioned is his wife.

This excuse about the money is bullsh1t in my opinion, if he was dumb enough to sign a contract where he earns so "little", which I very much doubt by the way, then he has to live with it. What would happen to us if we start working at a company for a good salary and then almost immediately start to bitch and moan about it, I'm sure we'd find ourselves on the street before too long.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't really like Mascha, if I'm very honest I don't really like Argentinian players, they are skilful but in terms of personality, loyalty and ethics it's not so good.

, you just made my day sir. Would you think 30k a week is fair for him ? Based on his performances this last 2 season i'd say he deserves a raise. FFS players like carrick , scholes , anderson are all above 50k and to be fair masch is much better than them . Loyalty wise , now thats just , masch wears his heart on his sleeve , he's passionate about the club and gives his all in every match. Messi has rejected moves a couple of times , masch has turned barca down once and i'm confident he will do it again. That statment about argentina players not being loyal is a bang out of order mate , the only one you can take into account is the money grabbing tevez

Heinze and Veron spring to mind in addition to Tevez and why would Messi leave, he's playing for arguably the best team in the world at the moment. BTW in what way is Mascha showing his loyalty to the club at the moment, is it all the times recently he has come out and said, "transfer no don't be ridiculous, I love Liverpool with every fibre of my being and would never do anything to provoke a payrise on a contract I was dumb enough to sign"

incidentally do we knwo for a fact that he's only on £25k a week, times must be hard for the little fellow, only £25k a week, my heart bleeds.

BTW I f I had my way none of these players would earn more than £10,000 a week, that way maybe ticket prices could be lowered, it's fecking obscene how much these footballers earn when there is so much poverty in the world.

Heinze wanted to come to us and had fallen behind the pecking order at manure and his first team chances were limited , he didn't demand a move or behave like a tit. Veron was below par and chelsea were stupid enough to sign him and fergie knew he was a flop. Masch gives his all in every match , look at the passion he has when he plays , every tackle , every goal we score see how he reacts. If heimdall you feel so strongly about footballers and their unrealistic wages , don't watch football , its not as though you go for any matches in the first place , if nanny was complaining than fair enough.

[Bad Bob]

You do have a point but we stood by xabi for 3 seasons when he wasn't at his best . Yes form is temporary , class is permanent but for 3 seasons we had yet to see him replicate the form that he did in his first season , than suddenly last season , the xabi alonso of the old returned with a brilliant season , argubably better than his first season with us. Its just that i don't understand why he hasn't come out and said that he not interested with a move , which means he is contemplating the idea . He was a former real sociedad player and moving to madrid will be like torres from athletico going over to real , stevie moving to everton or manure. He is a born and bred basque as well.
If he does go , he's no different from ronaldo , he doesn't have a excuse , being almost sold is not one when he himself knows he wasn't at his best

Let's not forget those "below his best" seasons involved some significant time missed for injuries.  Torres was "below his best" this past season as well, relative to the numbers he put up in his first season for us, but no one really has begrudged him that given his poor luck with injuries.  Yet, Alonso doesn't seem to get the same benefit of the doubt with some.

  , ok now injuries are the excuses ? Fine lets say he was injured for half a season , still 2 and a half seasons where he was below his best . As for torres well bob thats a poor poor arguement , 14 goals in 20 starts , yes he has had games where he's been below his best but still its an amazing feat and torres has had worse injuries this season than xabi and still he has had a pretty good season torres.

Here's the problem, mate.  You somehow seem to want to turn "below his best" into something more than it was.  Was he poor?  No.  Was he mediocre?  No.  He was "below his best"--which is still pretty dam.n good and more than worthy of a place in the side (as Rafa demonstrated by picking him so often over the last five years).  Put it this way, all top players slip "below their best" at some point.  Torres has, Gerrard has, Masch has, Reina has etc.  Doesn't mean they're past it or not worthy of a spot in the side.  That's where your argument falls flat, IMO.  You've got some strange conception that Xabi owes Rafa, the rest of the lads and the supporters something because everyone "stood by him" while he was "below his best" at times over the past few years.  Christ, you make it sound like the rest of the lads had to carry him and Rafa kept playing him out of pity.   It wasn't like that at all and so this idea that Xabi needs to repay us all for standing by him is just a bit silly, IMO.

[Toffeehater]

You do have a point but we stood by xabi for 3 seasons when he wasn't at his best . Yes form is temporary , class is permanent but for 3 seasons we had yet to see him replicate the form that he did in his first season , than suddenly last season , the xabi alonso of the old returned with a brilliant season , argubably better than his first season with us. Its just that i don't understand why he hasn't come out and said that he not interested with a move , which means he is contemplating the idea . He was a former real sociedad player and moving to madrid will be like torres from athletico going over to real , stevie moving to everton or manure. He is a born and bred basque as well.
If he does go , he's no different from ronaldo , he doesn't have a excuse , being almost sold is not one when he himself knows he wasn't at his best

Let's not forget those "below his best" seasons involved some significant time missed for injuries.  Torres was "below his best" this past season as well, relative to the numbers he put up in his first season for us, but no one really has begrudged him that given his poor luck with injuries.  Yet, Alonso doesn't seem to get the same benefit of the doubt with some.

  , ok now injuries are the excuses ? Fine lets say he was injured for half a season , still 2 and a half seasons where he was below his best . As for torres well bob thats a poor poor arguement , 14 goals in 20 starts , yes he has had games where he's been below his best but still its an amazing feat and torres has had worse injuries this season than xabi and still he has had a pretty good season torres.

Here's the problem, mate.  You somehow seem to want to turn "below his best" into something more than it was.  Was he poor?  No.  Was he mediocre?  No.  He was "below his best"--which is still pretty dam.n good and more than worthy of a place in the side (as Rafa demonstrated by picking him so often over the last five years).  Put it this way, all top players slip "below their best" at some point.  Torres has, Gerrard has, Masch has, Reina has etc.  Doesn't mean they're past it or not worthy of a spot in the side.  That's where your argument falls flat, IMO.  You've got some strange conception that Xabi owes Rafa, the rest of the lads and the supporters something because everyone "stood by him" while he was "below his best" at times over the past few years.  Christ, you make it sound like the rest of the lads had to carry him and Rafa kept playing him out of pity.   It wasn't like that at all and so this idea that Xabi needs to repay us all for standing by him is just a bit silly, IMO.

Well i can confidently say that rafa would have dropped him if we had someone actually challenging for his place in the team , the only competition he had for that spot was sissoko and guthrie and its easy to see why rafa continued to play him ? I bet you anything if we had options and i mean better ones , rafa would have dropped him. Also as for him being pretty dam good throughout that 3 seasons , you're cleary having a laugh , he was average or slightly above that at best , yes he had the odd good game here and there , and also your arguement falls flat when you say every player has a dip in form i agree with that , but no player has a dip in form for 3 seasons , so in the case of xabi that's an exception? You've made it no secret that you're a huge fan of alonso , and i couldn't care less if he left tomorrow as clearly he hasn't come out and put this rumors to bed and there is a reason for that and till he does. NO PLAYER IS BIGGER THAN THE CLUB .

[Greavesie]

Xabi's class lad. When asked to name a replacement not many on here could name a player that could slot straight in and do a job similar to his. Thats how good he is. The debate about who should replace him got lost with little conclusions as to who could replace him. The most you came up with yourself was De Rossi, which IMO is unrealistic. So why you would want him to leave is beyond me

[Bad Bob]

Also as for him being pretty dam good throughout that 3 seasons , you're cleary having a laugh , he was average or slightly above that at best


yes he had the odd good game here and there , and also your arguement falls flat when you say every player has a dip in form i agree with that , but no player has a dip in form for 3 seasons , so in the case of xabi that's an exception? You've made it no secret that you're a huge fan of alonso , and i couldn't care less if he left tomorrow as clearly he hasn't come out and put this rumors to bed and there is a reason for that and till he does. NO PLAYER IS BIGGER THAN THE CLUB .

"Average or slightly better at best"!  Priceless. I remember well your staunch defense of Kuyt, mate, when he was going through one of his spells earlier in the season (not to mention last season) so forgive me if I'm slightly bemused by how you evaluate players.

For me, even an "average" Alonso (by his own standards) is still comfortably one of the top 5 or 6 players at the club and is well worth a place in the side.  And, I'm not having this idea that he had 3 solid seasons of mediocre performances.  Surely Rafa would have sold him on or brought someone else in long before last summer's attempts were that the case?  Hell, you're prepared to bet me anything that Rafa would have dropped him if he had better options.  So, the fact that he didn't pursue better options must surely tell you something, right?  Tells me that Alonso wasn't consistently average.

But no matter, if you insist he was consistently average for 3 seasons and that that's not good enough for Liverpool Football Club, I doubt I'll convince you otherwise.  We'll agree to disagree I guess.  Personally, I think he'll be a huge loss if he does go but I suppose time will tell.

[Toffeehater]

Fine we'll have to agree to disagree than as for alonso leaving yes it will clearly be a big loss but i'm not happy as he has not come out and said that he wants to stay so surely he has contemplated moving to madrid.

[Bad Bob]

Fine we'll have to agree to disagree than as for alonso leaving yes it will clearly be a big loss but i'm not happy as he has not come out and said that he wants to stay so surely he has contemplated moving to madrid.

Well, on that we can definitely agree, mate, because every comment I've read from him is very much a dodge.  So, either he's contemplating a move or he's worried that Rafa is (or both).  We can't know for sure what's gone on behind closed doors but just from reading between the lines of the latest quotes from Xabi it seems as though his relationship with Rafa is a little rocky.  So, I guess we'll see.  I still hold out hope that we'll hold on to him despite all of this stuff, much like we managed to hang onto to Stevie four years ago.  If not, I hope we squeeze every last cent out of Real Madrid for him and have a backup plan well and truly in place to use the proceeds on.

[roberto green]

Fine we'll have to agree to disagree than as for alonso leaving yes it will clearly be a big loss but i'm not happy as he has not come out and said that he wants to stay so surely he has contemplated moving to madrid.

Well, on that we can definitely agree, mate, because every comment I've read from him is very much a dodge.  So, either he's contemplating a move or he's worried that Rafa is (or both).  We can't know for sure what's gone on behind closed doors but just from reading between the lines of the latest quotes from Xabi it seems as though his relationship with Rafa is a little rocky.  So, I guess we'll see.  I still hold out hope that we'll hold on to him despite all of this stuff, much like we managed to hang onto to Stevie four years ago.  If not, I hope we squeeze every last cent out of Real Madrid for him and have a backup plan well and truly in place to use the proceeds on.

If push comes to shove we could always sell him for a good fee and get Hleb from Barca on the cheap and have a bit of money to get either Siva or Villa?

[NANNY RED]

Xabi's class lad. When asked to name a replacement not many on here could name a player that could slot straight in and do a job similar to his. Thats how good he is. The debate about who should replace him got lost with little conclusions as to who could replace him. The most you came up with yourself was De Rossi, which IMO is unrealistic. So why you would want him to leave is beyond me

get in there Greavesie my son , good post