Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

As for Babel, I know very little about the lad.  I doubt very much that he'll be an absolute world beater for us in his first season--particularly given the 'rawness' our Dutch friends keep alluding to.  What I hope he'll be is a player that makes a significant impact for us when he plays this season (like Garcia did) and who will grow into the role of a quality first teamer over the next couple of years. 

In a way, though, there may be more at stake for Rafa with regard to Babel's performances over the next few seasons than there is with Torres's performances.  Yes, Torres was our record transfer and there's plenty of baggage and expectation that comes with that.  But, at least his talent is widely acknowledged in world football.  Babel is still a prospect but he's a player Rafa says he's been tracking for 4 years and he's a player we paid quite a lot of money on, relative to what he's accomplished so far in the game.  If he fails to deliver, I could see Rafa getting a lot more stick than if Torres underwhelms, given that we did pay so much for potential.

[cuppatea]

I said it was an even split between good and bad comments on that forum...

You implied that there was a CLEAR consensus against Babel, hence why you wrote:

"but you can't tell me it doesn't worry you when the majority of Dutch football fans (who've seen him week in, week out) think we're getting mugged."


One forum does not represent the whole of Ajax, and there were plenty of comments offering him praise. That "but" that you talk about is nothing out of the ordinary, you can put a "but" over any player his age. The same applies to Nani and Anderson.

I don't think they would be too distraught at losing him, they are getting a more than healthy sum in return. There is an inevitability about Ajax's young players anyway, the quality ones will always seek to progress in a European League other than the Eredivisie. I think that has a part to play too.

Yes but like I say, those comments are for the benefit of an English Liverpool fan. It's like if someone from Panathanaikos had come on here 2 years ago asking about Igor Biscan, I'm guessing most would have been fairly complimentary about him, but talking amongst ourselves, most Liverpool fans would say (aside from his cult status) that he was generally quite for us.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfi....-20.php

There's a link to a translation of a Dutch forum (I had a Dutch mate translate it for me but you can get the jist from that, even if it's in broken English). Someone posted a link near the top saying Liverpool have offered 10 million euros for Babel (just over half what we eventually paid), and over half the comments that follow says they should take the offer. Not only that, but 4 or 5 of them describe the offer as "beautiful", aswell as chiming in with comments like "he needs 10 chances to score 1 goal", "10 mil for someone who can't trap a ball?", "an inefficient footballer with chronic tunnel vision" and "we missed the championship by 1 point and I blame a large part of that on the low output of Babel".

Now I take your point about Henry (God I hope he's another Henry), and the inevitibility of Ajax's status as a selling club affecting the fans attitude towards this deal, but at the same time, if you look at them talking about the 15 mil euro offer from Valencia for Sneijder, most of them are loathe to let him leave, which clearly isn't the case with Babel at all.

My fear here is that we missed out on our primary targets (Malouda, Mancini, Quaresma, Alves etc) and with time quickly running out (Benitez wanted new players in time for the start of pre-season training), Benitez opted for Babel (his price having been inflated by his performance in the U21 final), without having sufficiently scouted him during last season's Eredivisie.

[David Villa]

As for Babel, I know very little about the lad.  I doubt very much that he'll be an absolute world beater for us in his first season--particularly given the 'rawness' our Dutch friends keep alluding to.  What I hope he'll be is a player that makes a significant impact for us when he plays this season (like Garcia did) and who will grow into the role of a quality first teamer over the next couple of years. 

Personally i think Yossi Benayoun will be the player to replace Luis Garcis because Yossi like Luis Garcia is a very technical player.

[Bad Bob]

As for Babel, I know very little about the lad.  I doubt very much that he'll be an absolute world beater for us in his first season--particularly given the 'rawness' our Dutch friends keep alluding to.  What I hope he'll be is a player that makes a significant impact for us when he plays this season (like Garcia did) and who will grow into the role of a quality first teamer over the next couple of years. 

Personally i think Yossi Benayoun will be the player to replace Luis Garcis because Yossi like Luis Garcia is a very technical player.

I certainly agree that Benayoun will play more of Garcia's style of game.  I was talking only about impact: I hope that Babel will have the same sort of impact that Garcia did in his first season for us.

[Emerald Red]

I say it as from what ive seen on babel and what mates have seen i think hes the buy of the season in the premiership.

plus, no offence to the dutch fans, but they are probably stoned and definately bitter.

id love to know what players at ajax you think are better than him tbag

I agree. And you're spot on about the Ajax fans coming in here moaning that we paid too much for him. They obviously worshipped  him when he was theirs, and now that he left them, they are making him out as if he was a bad buy and that they came off the better in the deal. Thing is, Ajax fans, he's comng to a bgger, better, harder league with a world class manager to give him the status that he has the potential to realise. I strongly feel that Babel will be a better aquisition than Torres next season.

[account deleted by request]

I think the main difference between our signings and the mancs is that Torres and to a lesser extent Babel and Benayoun are intended to strengthen the team, whereas the mancs signings with the possible exception of Hargreaves are intended to strengthen their squad while they develop and adapt, in the same way I expect Lucas and Leto will for us.

My worry is that if Torres takes time to settle or (god forbid) does a Morientes and doesn't adapt, we have no-one else with any pace to replace him.

[ConnO'var]

I think the main difference between our signings and the mancs is that Torres and to a lesser extent Babel and Benayoun are intended to strengthen the team, whereas the mancs signings with the possible exception of Hargreaves are intended to strengthen their squad while they develop and adapt, in the same way I expect Lucas and Leto will for us.

My worry is that if Torres takes time to settle or (god forbid) does a Morientes and doesn't adapt, we have no-one else with any pace to replace him.

Babel mate?.....

By all acounts, the boy has pace to burn...... not sure bout the rest of his game yet though....

I think Torres is gonna be good for us..... brings a little more flair and trickery to our squad. As you say, god forbid that he does a Morientes!

However, I think this will not be the case. IMO, Mori didn't struggle to adapt to the premiership. The problem was more the lack of proper service down the flanks and the way we were set up that season. He didn't get his usual customary no of headers due to lack of the right type of crosses. Which is something a player with his lack of pace but undoubted predatory calibre thrives on...

[redsince2001]

I think the main difference between our signings and the mancs is that Torres and to a lesser extent Babel and Benayoun are intended to strengthen the team, whereas the mancs signings with the possible exception of Hargreaves are intended to strengthen their squad while they develop and adapt, in the same way I expect Lucas and Leto will for us.

thats the main point......our signings will make more of an impact on the 1st team ....

[stmichael]

In October 1998, Roy Keane was the exact age Gerrard is now.  By that stage he had already had won three league titles, was on the verge of being the main man in a team that would win an unprecedented treble that season and was captain of club and country.

Gerrard has another year or two to reach his peak but I just do not think he controls and dictates the pattern of a game like Keane used to do.  Gerrard is better goal scoring threat but I reckon Keane bullyed his team mates into winning titles at the scum.  His influence was enormous.  I just wish Gerrard could acquire that domineering presence.

Gerrard is a box-to-box midfielder who doesn't want to be, and that may be colouring my argument, but his defensive game has always been superb. He started out as a right back and then looked likely for a while to become a Sissoko-style player, snapping into tackles all over the pitch. Always had a great shot and a range of passing, and I was looking forward to him developing into a better version of Keane or Vieira.

He changed his game towards the end of the Houllier era, seeming to want the goals and the headlines more often, but that means he was deserting his defensive responsibilities and Benitez tried to reshape him into a floating winger or an attacking midfielder, neither of which he has the guile to be in my opinion. His game is mainly physical, based on stamina and a fantastic long range shot and pass, but he won't regularly trick his way past a man or play the little delicate touches. He's no Zidane.

Last season he demanded more time in the centre, and for me was producing the discipline to match. This did reduce his scoring rate, which causes many to exaggerate his poor form, but a reduced scoring rate comes with the territory when you're part of an orthodox central pair as opposed to the point of a diamond, or a central triangle. His highest scoring season came playing mainly on the right wing and that's where some would like him to continue, but I think that's a bit of a waste as he can offer much more iin the middle where he can affect the game more. However, as I've stated on numerous occasions in the past, I also like him on the right asit does offer the team better balance. If we had a better right winger then I believe he would play there much less. I'd rather have a Pires or a Ronaldo scoring goals on the wing and Gerrard as a box to box player. FWIW I actually think he'll play a lot more in the centre this season, especially at home.

Scholes is a fantastic player by the way and very underrated, but without Keane in the side I don't think he'd have had half the success he's enjoyed over the years. Keane, much as I hate him, was as good as anyone I've seen in that position. He and Vieira would be the examples most can remember of the kind of player I want Gerrard to be.

I truly believe Gerrard can be better than any of them in the next few years if only he gets his head down and works his ar$e off for it. He's got about five years to go down as a legend not just for this club but for the English game if he puts his heart and soul into it instead of demanding it comes to him.

[LegBarnes]

mancs just drew 2-2 with some japan team LMAO they starting this season the same way they finished last hope it carrys on

[LFC2007]

Yes but like I say, those comments are for the benefit of an English Liverpool fan. It's like if someone from Panathanaikos had come on here 2 years ago asking about Igor Biscan, I'm guessing most would have been fairly complimentary about him,

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfi....-20.php

There's a link to a translation of a Dutch forum (I had a Dutch mate translate it for me but you can get the jist from that, even if it's in broken English). Someone posted a link near the top saying Liverpool have offered 10 million euros for Babel (just over half what we eventually paid), and over half the comments that follow says they should take the offer. Not only that, but 4 or 5 of them describe the offer as "beautiful", aswell as chiming in with comments like "he needs 10 chances to score 1 goal", "10 mil for someone who can't trap a ball?", "an inefficient footballer with chronic tunnel vision" and "we missed the championship by 1 point and I blame a large part of that on the low output of Babel".

Now I take your point about Henry (God I hope he's another Henry), and the inevitibility of Ajax's status as a selling club affecting the fans attitude towards this deal, but at the same time, if you look at them talking about the 15 mil euro offer from Valencia for Sneijder, most of them are loathe to let him leave, which clearly isn't the case with Babel at all.

My fear here is that we missed out on our primary targets (Malouda, Mancini, Quaresma, Alves etc) and with time quickly running out (Benitez wanted new players in time for the start of pre-season training), Benitez opted for Babel (his price having been inflated by his performance in the U21 final), without having sufficiently scouted him during last season's Eredivisie.

Don't make me laugh lad, Biscan is sh!t, always has been and always will be. If a Panathinaikos fan came on this forum and asked for our opinions on him, I doubt people would throw up a ringing endorsement of his ability. We would probably say something along the lines of, he's sh!t in England but maybe he can do the business in a lesser league with Panathinaikos. But please don't compare Biscan to Babel, the situation with him is very different.


You cited comments on one Ajax forum, I've proven that you took certain comments out of context to try and prove your point. There were other positive comments about Babel I could have quoted, but I didn't. There are Ajax fans who are going to dislike Babel and others who are going to rate him very highly - just like on any forum. There are people on this forum who really don't rate Sissoko at all, and others who rate him very highly. There are those who rate Kuyt very highly, and others who think he is a "waste of space". There are those who think Agger is top quality, and others who think he is mediocre. There are those who think Finnan is poor and very average, while others view him as a top player. You will get a mix of opinions generally unless you are talking about Gerrard or Carra - proven players, in this case we are not. He is young, only 20 - you cite Sneijder and Huntelaar as players who there would be a vast consensus against them leaving by Ajax fans - they are both 23. In three years time who's to say Babel wouldn't have reached their level? The comparison is again, inaccurate.


Your final paragraph is an alarmist penguinist rant and very inaccurate again, "without having sufficiently scouted him during last season's Eredivisie". Rafa has followed Babel since he was 16 when he was still at Valencia, this is not some inpromtu panic buy that you are suggesting it is. And as for the other "targets" - there is really no evidence to suggest they ever were targets in this summer transfer window anyway.

[cuppatea]

If we're spending £11.5m on a 20 year old from a smaller team in a much smaller league, to fill a position in which we're in desperate need of quality, then I'd expect fans of his previous club to at least rate him. Infact, I'd expect their fans to be in awe of what an amazing talent he was, rather than seeing over half of them be delighted to get shut of him. I don't want to read things like "he can't trap a ball", "he's useless", "he needs 10 chances for 1 goal", "I'll cycle him to Liverpool myself" etc from the fans that have seen more of him than any of us. If he's barely good enough to make a positive impression at Ajax, how is he going to make a big impact at Liverpool? We don't need a player who in 3 years can be as good as Wesley Sneijder (who himself nearly moved to Valencia this summer for LESS than we're paying for Babel), we need someone who can come in and improve the team NOW.

My hope was that after playing Zenden in the Champions League final last season (a man who offered even less to the club than Biscan) we'd go out and sign someone of genuine quality on the left wing, not a squad player or someone who is potentially good a few years down the line (and not someone who cites striker as his favoured position). As things stand now, the best we have to offer on the left is Harry Kewell (who as I've said before, can't be relied on for form or fitness) and after spending over £40m in the summer, I'd have hoped for more than that.

Also, just because Benitez has been aware of Babel since his days at Valencia doesn't mean he's been extensively scouting him for all of that time. Do you honestly get the impression that Babel was our first choice for the left? Where was our name in the frame when he was being linked with a £5-6m move to Arsenal a few weeks ago? The first time Babel ever mentioned Liverpool was about a week ago when it was reported we'd put a bid in, before that he was practically begging for Wenger to sign him. And was Malouda lying when he said he'd been in direct contact with Benitez weeks ago before eventually choosing the move to Chelsea? I'd be astonished if a 20 year old right footed striker was our #1 left wing target at the start of the summer.

[Big Niall]

I despise the mancs as much as anyone but will acknowledge that Keane was the outstanding player of his generation and only wish Gerrard was on a par.

Well they are very different players and difficult as such to compare but I would have thought that Gerrard is probably entering a stage of his career where he could surpass Keane on an individual level.

There is absolutely no question that at his peak, Keane was the best midfield player in the Premiership with only latterly Vierra able to challenge him, and it is my view that Gerrard is comfortably the best around right now. It could in fact be argued that Gerrard is further ahead than Keane was of his immediate rivals as in all honesty, there isn't a midfield player in the truest sense of the word (ie not a winger) that could be realistically mentioned in the same breath as our captain at the moment. I would suppose that Fabregas is in the early stages of developing into an absolutely fantastic player, but he is alone on the horizon of challengers to Gerrard in my opinion anyway.

Keane was better than Gerrard. Keane wasn't just a tackler or an engine but was able to control a game in a way that Gerrard can't. Just look at their performances in top international matches, Gerrard has not produced in world cups (although at least he stuck around for the tournament. )

[stmichael]

It's great these comparisons to Keane, Scholes, Vieira, Souness etc and they've existed ever since Gerrard broke into the first team. But the one player he reminds me of (now rather than 3 years ago) is Pavel Nedved. I think Gerrard is becoming more and more like Nedved. Stevie, like Nedved, can track back, tackle and cover every blade of grass on the pitch in 90 minutes but his best games are where he does his damage in the final third and he's given free reign almost to hurt teams by intelligent movement in the last third added to an excellent shot, cross and passing ability.

Same with Mendieta during his Valencia years. Had a bit of everything but was best when his dynamism was harnessed in an attacking sense, driving forward from a wide area.

[grayghost]

Gerrard is the best all round Player the english prem as ever seen he has now become englands best player with Lampost being given the boot an SG now in the middle Keane was never in his league maybe at controling a game but Sg can do that and then pop up out sid the area and bang 1 away Keane ever hardly did that