Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu the Red]

experience is vital for any class defender, which is why Sammi and Carra were able to play on after their pace had long gone.

For me, Sakho is the replacement for Sammi. In my book, we never got over his departure and have looked dodgy at the back ever since, with strikers bullying our defenders all over the shop. That won't happen with this lad.

Really? You're comparing Sahko to Hyypia?

[RedAnt]

"If a player can't do something at 23 he can never do it. FACT." Stu

Utter bollox. In the PL, Sakho will encounter things he never encountered in France. To the uneducated eye, football is as simple as kicking a round, leather thing and anyone with a foot can do it. As you advance through the skill levels, then you realise there are more and more ways to kick the round, leather thing. Countless ways in fact, with countless different outcomes. The more you kick the round leather thing, the more you discover about it. This road of discovery dosent end at 23. Not unless you're a complete spacker.

Now look at the countless variables included when you expand the round leather thing and take all the other countless variables, as far stretching as a players mood, to the length of the grass, to the weight of an opposing player...the road of discovery goes on and on. The air, the atmosphere, the language, food, water, culture, pace of game, size of nose, France and England are different.

I could go on and on and on about the differences. But anyone who states such a fact as "if you can't do it by 23, you can't do it" has no idea about football at turf level.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

StuYesThatStu

Really? Thats your arguement? Goals against?



Do you not think other factors like a the midfield, full backs and keeper will contribute to that? Or maybe the amount of games they played together down to circumstance? Or even tactical play? Whether a team plays an open style or all behind the ball etc etc.... No? Thought not...

At 23 Ferdinand was considered Sh*t enough to spend £30,000,000 on aswell.

If you can't do something as a footballer by 23, you'll never be able to do it. FACT!

what do you mean exactly by `if you cant do something as a footballer by 23 you`ll never be able to do it`?
at 23 drogba was playing in the french second division for guingamp and sheringham was at millwall, both went on to win league titles and score vital goals in CL finals.

[redno7]

Ricky Lambert, first cap for England age 31
End of theory

[Stu the Red]

StuYesThatStu

Really? Thats your arguement? Goals against?



Do you not think other factors like a the midfield, full backs and keeper will contribute to that? Or maybe the amount of games they played together down to circumstance? Or even tactical play? Whether a team plays an open style or all behind the ball etc etc.... No? Thought not...

At 23 Ferdinand was considered Sh*t enough to spend £30,000,000 on aswell.

If you can't do something as a footballer by 23, you'll never be able to do it. FACT!

what do you mean exactly by `if you cant do something as a footballer by 23 you`ll never be able to do it`?
at 23 drogba was playing in the french second division for guingamp and sheringham was at millwall, both went on to win league titles and score vital goals in CL finals.

So because at twenty three they haven't been picked up by good sides that makes them bad players?



Oh right yeah, forgot if you don't play for a top side you're automatically *****!!!

[Stu the Red]

"If a player can't do something at 23 he can never do it. FACT." Stu

Utter bollox. In the PL, Sakho will encounter things he never encountered in France. To the uneducated eye, football is as simple as kicking a round, leather thing and anyone with a foot can do it. As you advance through the skill levels, then you realise there are more and more ways to kick the round, leather thing. Countless ways in fact, with countless different outcomes. The more you kick the round leather thing, the more you discover about it. This road of discovery dosent end at 23. Not unless you're a complete spacker.

Now look at the countless variables included when you expand the round leather thing and take all the other countless variables, as far stretching as a players mood, to the length of the grass, to the weight of an opposing player...the road of discovery goes on and on. The air, the atmosphere, the language, food, water, culture, pace of game, size of nose, France and England are different.

I could go on and on and on about the differences. But anyone who states such a fact as "if you can't do it by 23, you can't do it" has no idea about football at turf level.

Yeah. I mean, its so much different controlling a ball and passing it to a team mate in Spain than it is in England. In England you have to be able to "adapt" as the ball is a different shape and the rules are different. Oh yeah, we can't forget the weather... I mean, breathing different air and the water spinning in a different direction too really does take its toll. Also the food... I mean, how can a player expect to be able to head a ball when he's had a pizza the night before.

Who could forget the length of the grass too... I mean, we've all seen it haven't we... a player who's great in long grass but can't play in a jungle...

Have you f*cking heard yourself?



Everyone bangs on about the cliche bull Sh*t of adapting, time on the ball, etc etc. Do you honestly think that players don't close you down in Spain and France? Do you really firmly believe the media hype that the game is more advanced and different over here? Obviously you do. #take a look at the national team

Great players are great players. All adapting is, is living in a different country and settling in with team mates and learning about the new teams tactical formation (which you have to do in any transfer). Of course you aren't going to see someone at their consistent best after two weeks, but the attributes will always show through in players, as will weaknesses very early on. Those weaknesses will always be there, from 18... to 33.

Try looking at Ozil... did he "need time to adapt"? The answer is a resounding NO! Do you know why? Because he was good enough in the first place. He hasn't found his best form as of yet, he'll score goals eventually and set more up. The difference is though, you can see it a mile off. The lad oozes class. He doesn't make mistake after mistake.

Same for Alonso, Hyypia (who came from an average dutch team in a very average dutch league to become one of our best players for years and best centre backs ever) Torres, (even Mascherano who was hugely overated). None of them needed "time to adapt" in the sense the idiots think they did. They all came into the side, performed and shown their quality.

Same with 18 and 17 year old kids. If you've got it, you've got it. If at 23 you haven't... you'll never have it. Simple as that.

[RedAnt]

"If a player can't do something at 23 he can never do it. FACT." Stu

Utter bollox. In the PL, Sakho will encounter things he never encountered in France. To the uneducated eye, football is as simple as kicking a round, leather thing and anyone with a foot can do it. As you advance through the skill levels, then you realise there are more and more ways to kick the round, leather thing. Countless ways in fact, with countless different outcomes. The more you kick the round leather thing, the more you discover about it. This road of discovery dosent end at 23. Not unless you're a complete spacker.

Now look at the countless variables included when you expand the round leather thing and take all the other countless variables, as far stretching as a players mood, to the length of the grass, to the weight of an opposing player...the road of discovery goes on and on. The air, the atmosphere, the language, food, water, culture, pace of game, size of nose, France and England are different.

I could go on and on and on about the differences. But anyone who states such a fact as "if you can't do it by 23, you can't do it" has no idea about football at turf level.

Yeah. I mean, its so much different controlling a ball and passing it to a team mate in Spain than it is in England. In England you have to be able to "adapt" as the ball is a different shape and the rules are different. Oh yeah, we can't forget the weather... I mean, breathing different air and the water spinning in a different direction too really does take its toll. Also the food... I mean, how can a player expect to be able to head a ball when he's had a pizza the night before.

Who could forget the length of the grass too... I mean, we've all seen it haven't we... a player who's great in long grass but can't play in a jungle...

Have you f*cking heard yourself?



Everyone bangs on about the cliche bull Sh*t of adapting, time on the ball, etc etc. Do you honestly think that players don't close you down in Spain and France? Do you really firmly believe the media hype that the game is more advanced and different over here? Obviously you do. #take a look at the national team

Great players are great players. All adapting is, is living in a different country and settling in with team mates and learning about the new teams tactical formation (which you have to do in any transfer). Of course you aren't going to see someone at their consistent best after two weeks, but the attributes will always show through in players, as will weaknesses very early on. Those weaknesses will always be there, from 18... to 33.

Try looking at Ozil... did he "need time to adapt"? The answer is a resounding NO! Do you know why? Because he was good enough in the first place. He hasn't found his best form as of yet, he'll score goals eventually and set more up. The difference is though, you can see it a mile off. The lad oozes class. He doesn't make mistake after mistake.

Same for Alonso, Hyypia (who came from an average dutch team in a very average dutch league to become one of our best players for years and best centre backs ever) Torres, (even Mascherano who was hugely overated). None of them needed "time to adapt" in the sense the idiots think they did. They all came into the side, performed and shown their quality.

Same with 18 and 17 year old kids. If you've got it, you've got it. If at 23 you haven't... you'll never have it. Simple as that.

Wow. So the ball's the same shape. Well observed. What about the culture of the game. Is that the same in each country? Call it a cliche all you like but it dosent make it less true that when finely tuned professionals of any trade will perform a little differently, dependant on their surroundings. It takes time to get to know your new work mates, new training regimes, new weather and so on.

All I can say Stu is if you thought you were the finished product at 23, from my own personal experience (not what I've read in the papers) you'd be moved on for being an arrogant lil knob. Your team mates wouldn't like you much either and would wonder why you bothered showing up for training, since you're as good as you'll ever be. Tells a story huh?

[Stu the Red]

"If a player can't do something at 23 he can never do it. FACT." Stu

Utter bollox. In the PL, Sakho will encounter things he never encountered in France. To the uneducated eye, football is as simple as kicking a round, leather thing and anyone with a foot can do it. As you advance through the skill levels, then you realise there are more and more ways to kick the round, leather thing. Countless ways in fact, with countless different outcomes. The more you kick the round leather thing, the more you discover about it. This road of discovery dosent end at 23. Not unless you're a complete spacker.

Now look at the countless variables included when you expand the round leather thing and take all the other countless variables, as far stretching as a players mood, to the length of the grass, to the weight of an opposing player...the road of discovery goes on and on. The air, the atmosphere, the language, food, water, culture, pace of game, size of nose, France and England are different.

I could go on and on and on about the differences. But anyone who states such a fact as "if you can't do it by 23, you can't do it" has no idea about football at turf level.

Yeah. I mean, its so much different controlling a ball and passing it to a team mate in Spain than it is in England. In England you have to be able to "adapt" as the ball is a different shape and the rules are different. Oh yeah, we can't forget the weather... I mean, breathing different air and the water spinning in a different direction too really does take its toll. Also the food... I mean, how can a player expect to be able to head a ball when he's had a pizza the night before.

Who could forget the length of the grass too... I mean, we've all seen it haven't we... a player who's great in long grass but can't play in a jungle...

Have you f*cking heard yourself?



Everyone bangs on about the cliche bull Sh*t of adapting, time on the ball, etc etc. Do you honestly think that players don't close you down in Spain and France? Do you really firmly believe the media hype that the game is more advanced and different over here? Obviously you do. #take a look at the national team

Great players are great players. All adapting is, is living in a different country and settling in with team mates and learning about the new teams tactical formation (which you have to do in any transfer). Of course you aren't going to see someone at their consistent best after two weeks, but the attributes will always show through in players, as will weaknesses very early on. Those weaknesses will always be there, from 18... to 33.

Try looking at Ozil... did he "need time to adapt"? The answer is a resounding NO! Do you know why? Because he was good enough in the first place. He hasn't found his best form as of yet, he'll score goals eventually and set more up. The difference is though, you can see it a mile off. The lad oozes class. He doesn't make mistake after mistake.

Same for Alonso, Hyypia (who came from an average dutch team in a very average dutch league to become one of our best players for years and best centre backs ever) Torres, (even Mascherano who was hugely overated). None of them needed "time to adapt" in the sense the idiots think they did. They all came into the side, performed and shown their quality.

Same with 18 and 17 year old kids. If you've got it, you've got it. If at 23 you haven't... you'll never have it. Simple as that.

Wow. So the ball's the same shape. Well observed. What about the culture of the game. Is that the same in each country? Call it a cliche all you like but it dosent make it less true that when finely tuned professionals of any trade will perform a little differently, dependant on their surroundings. It takes time to get to know your new work mates, new training regimes, new weather and so on.

All I can say Stu is if you thought you were the finished product at 23, from my own personal experience (not what I've read in the papers) you'd be moved on for being an arrogant lil knob. Your team mates wouldn't like you much either and would wonder why you bothered showing up for training, since you're as good as you'll ever be. Tells a story huh?

So you actually believe the "culture of the game" has anything to do with their ability to control a ball? Or do you think that has anything to do with their ability to win a header... or play a pass to someone in the same colour shirt? You actually believe that just because you're in a different country with different weather it makes an attritube different? I can cast Iron guarentee you it doesn't, I'm quite sure if I went to play football in Spain or Italy or even Australia I'd still go up for headers the same way, I'd still have the same pace, fitness (or lack of these days ).

Who ever said anything about the finished product either?

Have I not said a million times that experience will make a good player better, but will never make a bad player good?

Same arguement applies here but in a completely different context. Like i've said a million times, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Players develop technically till about 19... usually by 14/15/16 you have a good idea of strengths and weaknesses (which will always remain the same). Game intelligence usually developes up untill about 19... occasionally it can take a bit longer depending on environment... but usually movements, reading of the game positional play etc is pretty set. By 17 again you have an idea of strengths and weakenesses that will always remain the same...

Physically players develop at different rates (the general rule of thumb is 20) but can occasionally reach 22/23... After that its all about experience and learning how to use attributes and when to use them and learning how to fit into a tactical system. Its nothing to do with improving attributes. You will never see a player at 17... learn to magically turn a weakness into a strength by 23. If never happens.

You want an example? Steven Gerrard was never great tactically... something I once got shot down for saying. All of a sudden, now, at 33 (when he "should have learnt") he still isn't great tactically. Its still probably his biggest weakness.

Come back Ant when you understand the game lad, I'm bored of repeating myself.

[Stu the Red]

To add another point to that... I've seen loads of sixteen and seventeen year old kids that have been technically miles better than alot of players in the premier league...

How do you explain that?

[RedAnt]

Stu, you're the one with no clue. A human male will grow on average until 28 years old. Depending on genetics, diet and excercise it will vary either side of 28. After that, the body begins to slowly fade. We can maintain our fitness, and still fill out, but our capacity has sadly stopped growing. At 40 it becomes harder to maintain until eventually losing the race against time.

Now your statement, claimed as fact, is rubbish. Muscles all over the body grow at different rates. Males, for example, don't develope pectorals until young adulthood. So a young player might have problems knocking a more physically developed opponent off the ball. When said opponent is 34 however, and the younger man has developed more physically, the tables will turn. Honestly mate, I could go on and on about it, but if you don't see how daft your "fact" was, then the evidence speaks for itself.

As for atmosphere and weather, again, it's common sense. Maybe a player hasn't played in rain before, or maybe it's too hot and he can't get used to it. Perhaps he's struggling with the language, or the food upsets his stomach. He might struggle to get over his jetlag.

[Stu the Red]

Stu, you're the one with no clue. A human male will grow on average until 28 years old. Depending on genetics, diet and excercise it will vary either side of 28. After that, the body begins to slowly fade. We can maintain our fitness, and still fill out, but our capacity has sadly stopped growing. At 40 it becomes harder to maintain until eventually losing the race against time.

Now your statement, claimed as fact, is rubbish. Muscles all over the body grow at different rates. Males, for example, don't develope pectorals until young adulthood. So a young player might have problems knocking a more physically developed opponent off the ball. When said opponent is 34 however, and the younger man has developed more physically, the tables will turn. Honestly mate, I could go on and on about it, but if you don't see how daft your "fact" was, then the evidence speaks for itself.

As for atmosphere and weather, again, it's common sense. Maybe a player hasn't played in rain before, or maybe it's too hot and he can't get used to it. Perhaps he's struggling with the language, or the food upsets his stomach. He might struggle to get over his jetlag.

The last part of your arguement is clutching at straws at best and is quite silly to be honest. They may not have played in rain?? Are you for real? They do have rain in other parts of the world... I'm quite sure every professional footballer has played in rain at some point in their lives... infact, I find it shocking you're coming out with statements like that. Upset stomach's, Jetlag which probably lasts a day (most of which is coming from countries less than 3 hours away (being generous), like I said before, have you heard yourself? You're using this as an excuse as to why players aren't good enough? Get a grip!

You can go on about the physical state of a human being for years, you're totally correct but we aren't talking about it in extreme depth. The rate of growth between sixteen and twenty one is far more than the absolute minute rate of growth between 23 and 28. You know this, the world knows this. Any growth after the age of 23 when talking about football, is completely irrellivant. In MOST (not all) cases, the growth that occur after 20 can be irrelivant also.

Do you know anyone or have every known of a human being to grow a couple of inches after the age of 21? Its very rare (I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but its EXTREMELY rare) So the 21/22 arguement is perfectly valid. Especially when you are talking about athletes. If you look at any professional athlete, physically between 22 and 26 they are in the their prime physically. Also, if you look at 95% of fooballers, you'll see that the physical state of a player, rarely, if ever changes from 23 to 30, on occasions again, this does happen... but not by the amounts you're claiming to make such a difference.

Michael Owen was never world class in the technical department of the game, when he came through at 16/17 he was steady, but never excellent. He finished his career at 33 still pretty much the same level of player technically. Much as Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher and all the rest have done. They've all had the same technical attributes from 16 through to the end of their careers. Little changes may have occurred, like the ability to strike a ball more consisently, or to sharpen up the edges, but no player we've ever produced has improved by such a damatic amount as you are trying to make out. You'll never get a player come through with a bad touch, who'll finish his career with a good one, just as you'll never get a slow player come through and at any point be quick enough for the olympics.

[RedAnt]

Stu, the human body goes through various stages. You stop growing taller at 18-21, but in the average male, the muscles aren't developed until beyond that point. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule, but about 700 billion cases where it's true. I myself can kick a ball much further than I could at 23. I know I understand the ball more now which allows me to curl it more. It dosent matter if its a better knowledge that allows a player to do more.

I think the mistake you've made is to make a general claim when you referred more to the basic skills. Your statement means that a player couldn't be showed a new trick if he was older than 23.

As for the 'clutchin at straws' I listed a very small number of differences that might effect a player in a new country. I didn't think I needed to clarify. But some countries don't see any rain. And when it rains in some countries, it's torrential. By your reckoning, all these footballers should be able to play in Qatar in summer. They're professionals! But no, it's too hot. Heat effects players, especially when accustomed to British weather. And when coming from the south of France, or from Spain, or Brazil, coming to England can be one heck of a culture shock, causing good, glove wearing samba boys to look very ordinary when asked to play in smoggy Middlesboro, for example.

[metalhead]

Wenger sums it up on player development

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RLrxaZaVfQ

[metalhead]

Stu, the human body goes through various stages. You stop growing taller at 18-21, but in the average male, the muscles aren't developed until beyond that point. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule, but about 700 billion cases where it's true. I myself can kick a ball much further than I could at 23. I know I understand the ball more now which allows me to curl it more. It dosent matter if its a better knowledge that allows a player to do more.

I think the mistake you've made is to make a general claim when you referred more to the basic skills. Your statement means that a player couldn't be showed a new trick if he was older than 23.

As for the 'clutchin at straws' I listed a very small number of differences that might effect a player in a new country. I didn't think I needed to clarify. But some countries don't see any rain. And when it rains in some countries, it's torrential. By your reckoning, all these footballers should be able to play in Qatar in summer. They're professionals! But no, it's too hot. Heat effects players, especially when accustomed to British weather. And when coming from the south of France, or from Spain, or Brazil, coming to England can be one heck of a culture shock, causing good, glove wearing samba boys to look very ordinary when asked to play in smoggy Middlesboro, for example.

Just like Wenger said in his interview, if you are not technical enough by 14 you will never be technical enough by 20 and so on. You cannot learn a new trick once you fully develop your technical skills at an early age

No one can play in Qatar's heat, not even the locals, the Qatar league is played late night when it's cooler. I've played in UAE once and it was 45 C at night and humidity was almost at a 100%, I didn't last 20 minutes and not even my friend (who is a local) out there

[maguskwt]

  You guys are like those bunch of idiot dwarfs that I read in a story that are prepared to go to war because one group believed that "a straight line is the shortest distance between two points" but other group believed that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...