Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

But he is boss on FM 14, 4 goals and 5 assists so far

Does he have 20 work rate and 20 tacking?

His creativity is 15 and 17 work rate and 17 tackling

already has an average rating of 7.40... he is going to win the Ballon D'Or!!!

[Stu the Red]

But he is boss on FM 14, 4 goals and 5 assists so far

Does he have 20 work rate and 20 tacking?

His creativity is 15 and 17 work rate and 17 tackling

already has an average rating of 7.40... he is going to win the Ballon D'Or!!!

Just like in real life...

According to some on here at least!

[SouthCoastShankly]

If thats your idea of a top player... then thank christ you don't have anything to do with the club.

Since Lucas was signed, every manager has rated him enough to consistently play him. Rodgers is no different. You may not like or rate him Stu but you are the exception to the rule.

In fact if I did have anything to do with the club I would fit in perfectly with my view of Lucas.

[Stu the Red]

If thats your idea of a top player... then thank christ you don't have anything to do with the club.

Since Lucas was signed, every manager has rated him enough to consistently play him. Rodgers is no different. You may not like or rate him Stu but you are the exception to the rule.

In fact if I did have anything to do with the club I would fit in perfectly with my view of Lucas.

You can claim the "majority" are right, all you like. That seems to be your thing... you do like to base your own opinion on other peoples and have very little clue about any player outside the walls of anfield...

But maybe one of the reasons we've struggled over the last four or five years to get near the champions league has been accepting players in and around the same quality of Lucas. What you're saying also makes no sense. The amount of statements you've came out with regards to Liverpool players being better than they are must make the management really poor for getting nothing out of them.

[only me]

If thats your idea of a top player... then thank christ you don't have anything to do with the club.

Since Lucas was signed, every manager has rated him enough to consistently play him. Rodgers is no different. You may not like or rate him Stu but you are the exception to the rule.

In fact if I did have anything to do with the club I would fit in perfectly with my view of Lucas.

Actually Rodgers first signing (if i remember correctly) was Joe Allen which was supposed to take Lucas place in the Starting lineup...Lucas was always a compromise and will always be ,Can't be that a team which had Alonso and Mash (Which we all remember had their own faults) would settle For Lucas as a long term starting solution.

[Stu the Red]

If thats your idea of a top player... then thank christ you don't have anything to do with the club.

Since Lucas was signed, every manager has rated him enough to consistently play him. Rodgers is no different. You may not like or rate him Stu but you are the exception to the rule.

In fact if I did have anything to do with the club I would fit in perfectly with my view of Lucas.

Actually Rodgers first signing (if i remember correctly) was Joe Allen which was supposed to take Lucas place in the Starting lineup...Lucas was always a compromise and will always be ,Can't be that a team which had Alonso and Mash (Which we all remember had their own faults) would settle For Lucas as a long term starting solution.

Lucas is brilliant though...

I mean, he's lightening quick, he's a fantastic passer, he's got exceptional vision, he's a world class tackler, he's immense in the air, he can go past players like they aren't even there, he can control a game, he scores loads of goals and sets loads of goals up and his link up play is fantastic. He plays excellent one-two's and his drive with the ball at his feet and ability to attract opposition players out of position is top quality.

Oh wait a minute... not one of those statements is true... He's still brilliant though! 

[SouthCoastShankly]

If thats your idea of a top player... then thank christ you don't have anything to do with the club.

Since Lucas was signed, every manager has rated him enough to consistently play him. Rodgers is no different. You may not like or rate him Stu but you are the exception to the rule.

In fact if I did have anything to do with the club I would fit in perfectly with my view of Lucas.

You can claim the "majority" are right, all you like. That seems to be your thing... you do like to base your own opinion on other peoples and have very little clue about any player outside the walls of anfield...

But maybe one of the reasons we've struggled over the last four or five years to get near the champions league has been accepting players in and around the same quality of Lucas. What you're saying also makes no sense. The amount of statements you've came out with regards to Liverpool players being better than they are must make the management really poor for getting nothing out of them.

Actually my opinions are formed from analysis of a situation. In the case of Lucas what he does or doesn't do and how effective he is can easily be worked out. Tackles, pass completion, wins with or without him, etc. I encourage you to read this OPTA based article on Lucas' effectiveness - http://eplindex.com/13934/the-importanc ... lysis.html

It's no coincidence that Lucas' effectiveness on the team and Liverpool's performance results in 1) me liking him as a footballer, 2) managers (past and present) selecting him more often than not. If anything, it makes me think that I must be thinking right if I share the same opinion of all the managers who consistently played Lucas.

Stu, your opinion of Lucas is at odds with Benitez, Dalglish and Rodgers - you really think they all were duped and got it wrong with Lucas?

For what it is worth, I think Mascherano was more effective than Lucas but even he scored rarely. Lucas performs the same role as Mascherano once performed and does it fine, the stats don't lie.

Lucas isn't a perfect player, he has flaws like every player. But when someone suggests he is worse than virtually 75% of the leagues defensive/holding midfielders, despite the evidence against that stance, it's time for a reality check.



Only me: I think Allen was brought in as a backup to Lucas, not a replacement. Arguable even as a partner to Lucas. When it was clear that Gerrard was unable to consistently perform the creative role as he had in previous seasons, Coutinho was scouted and as such our style evolved.

[only me]

Only me: I think Allen was brought in as a backup to Lucas, not a replacement. Arguable even as a partner to Lucas. When it was clear that Gerrard was unable to consistently perform the creative role as he had in previous seasons, Coutinho was scouted and as such our style evolved.

I don't know SCS ,Allen was the main engine under Rodgers in Swansea ,don't think he would have splashed big money bringing him only to sub Lucas. I'm also familiar with the stats but i rather trust my own eyes and good judgment. Lucas first years were terrible and while his pre-injury year was good ,i don't think he is capable of giving us the edge in his position. I'm familiar with the claim that he plays a role in the team which is hard to appreciate ,but facts is that we had much better just before him. He doesn't impact the game to the extent you want a player in his position to play.

[jacdaniel]

Lucas isn't too bad.  Was a lot better before his injuries but he can still do a job.  Solid but unspectacular.
I personally think we could upgrade on Lucas but its just not a priority at the moment.  Perhaps it will be next summer.

As for midfield in general, there are generally 3 types of midfielder these days and it seems to cause a lot of confusion amongst people.  There is:

DM:  Defensive midfielder.  Role is to break up play and mainly focus on defensive duties.   (mascherano)
CM:  This is generally a playmaker type.  Takes the ball from the defenders and controls the tempo.  Need to be strong as well though for the Premier league.  (Alonso, Xavi)
AM:  Plays slightly more advanced with less defensive duties.  can drop and help in midfield and is required to get forward and support the attack.  (Gerrard, Lampard)

Due to different formations and clubs budgets etc... its not always possible to have a specialist in each area.  We were lucky to find the perfect balance with Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard.

Lucas for me is not a proper DM.  He's a failed attacking midfielder who as it turns out can do a solid job at DM.
Joe Allen would be a CM.  He's struggling though because he isn't strong or confident enough to battle it out with the more physical players in the PL.
Gerrard was a fantastic AM but In my opinon, he never really had the discipline required to be a centre mid.

Basically, none of our midfielders are really spectacular (anymore at least) at any of the roles mentioned.  Wouldn't surprise me if we have 3 entirely new midfielders in there over the next season or 2.

[Stu the Red]

Actually my opinions are formed from analysis of a situation. In the case of Lucas what he does or doesn't do and how effective he is can easily be worked out. Tackles, pass completion, wins with or without him, etc. I encourage you to read this OPTA based article on Lucas' effectiveness - http://eplindex.com/13934/the-importanc ... lysis.html

It's no coincidence that Lucas' effectiveness on the team and Liverpool's performance results in 1) me liking him as a footballer, 2) managers (past and present) selecting him more often than not. If anything, it makes me think that I must be thinking right if I share the same opinion of all the managers who consistently played Lucas.

Stu, your opinion of Lucas is at odds with Benitez, Dalglish and Rodgers - you really think they all were duped and got it wrong with Lucas?

For what it is worth, I think Mascherano was more effective than Lucas but even he scored rarely. Lucas performs the same role as Mascherano once performed and does it fine, the stats don't lie.

Lucas isn't a perfect player, he has flaws like every player. But when someone suggests he is worse than virtually 75% of the leagues defensive/holding midfielders, despite the evidence against that stance, it's time for a reality check.



Only me: I think Allen was brought in as a backup to Lucas, not a replacement. Arguable even as a partner to Lucas. When it was clear that Gerrard was unable to consistently perform the creative role as he had in previous seasons, Coutinho was scouted and as such our style evolved.

Oh my word.

Opta stats, don't cover how often you help your team mate, how often you create space for someone on your own team with movement, don't cover who you perform your "stat" against, they don't cover your influence on a game and most importantly of all, they don't cover your ability as a footballer.

The spaniard being wrong about Lucas wouldn't be a first either, he's been wrong many times with his signings. Infact, I'd argue very, very few he actually got right.

The reason you like Lucas so much is clear, you think you're the only one educated enough to see the "dirty work" that he does that "no-one" notices... to be quite honest, I'm getting bored of these silly arguements cropping up whenever anyone questions someone who "works hard". Everyone see's the "dirty work". Everyone appreciates a good tackle, just as they do a winger skinning someone and whipping a ball in, or a seventy yard pass, or a booming header... we all see it, we all know whats happening.

Hamann used to play a similar role to Lucas, yet he could pass, get forward, shoot, tackle, win us free kicks rather than giving them away.... Hamann wasn't even THAT good yet he was probably twice the player Lucas could ever dream of being.

The sooner he's shipped out for better players the better. I can't believe that people who support this club and have seen players like Souness, Whelan, Houghton, Alonso, Gerrard and McAllister actually think this lads any good...

Lucas isn't a bad player, but he's not a good one either, we could do much better and I'd expect us too come the summer. If he's still here next summer I'd be suprised. He'd be more suited to a mid table spanish or italian side.

[Stu the Red]

Lucas isn't too bad.  Was a lot better before his injuries but he can still do a job.  Solid but unspectacular.
I personally think we could upgrade on Lucas but its just not a priority at the moment.  Perhaps it will be next summer.

As for midfield in general, there are generally 3 types of midfielder these days and it seems to cause a lot of confusion amongst people.  There is:

DM:  Defensive midfielder.  Role is to break up play and mainly focus on defensive duties.   (mascherano)
CM:  This is generally a playmaker type.  Takes the ball from the defenders and controls the tempo.  Need to be strong as well though for the Premier league.  (Alonso, Xavi)
AM:  Plays slightly more advanced with less defensive duties.  can drop and help in midfield and is required to get forward and support the attack.  (Gerrard, Lampard)

Due to different formations and clubs budgets etc... its not always possible to have a specialist in each area.  We were lucky to find the perfect balance with Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard.

Lucas for me is not a proper DM.  He's a failed attacking midfielder who as it turns out can do a solid job at DM.
Joe Allen would be a CM.  He's struggling though because he isn't strong or confident enough to battle it out with the more physical players in the PL.
Gerrard was a fantastic AM but In my opinon, he never really had the discipline required to be a centre mid.

Basically, none of our midfielders are really spectacular (anymore at least) at any of the roles mentioned.  Wouldn't surprise me if we have 3 entirely new midfielders in there over the next season or 2.

Here's a really interesting solution...

That probably no-one ever will have thought of... why not get two quality midfielders, who can both attack and defend?

That way we don't have to accomadate limited players who can only perform one role. It might stop us being one dimensional.

Just a thought like... seen as no-one's thought of suggesting this... 

[jacdaniel]

I think you mean Henderson... we just need to teach him how to attack.  and then how to defend.  and then how to run properly if you believe what whiskey nose says 

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

To those that witnessed our season come to a shuddering halt against Chelsea when Lucas suffered the cruciate injury to his knee ,(in which I might
add Lucas was man of the match ) will know just how important he is to this Liverpool side. Its no secret we lost 11 out of 19 games bereft of the lads
considerable influence on our midfield.

I'm sure Dalglish wouldn't underestimate the effect the lads absence had on the rest of our season. Only a fool would undervalue Lucas's importance in
the centre of our midfield ,and as luck would have it we seem to have an unhealthy percentage on this forum.....so its always amusing ,and worth
logging in ,if only to view the usual suspects berating the Lad with the same old tired posts..... So feel free, I  will just be standing back here laughing
at the failed football players and managers who have exhausted their supplies of lipstick by sucking the wrong players cock 

[7_Kewell]

To those that witnessed our season come to a shuddering halt against Chelsea when Lucas suffered the cruciate injury to his knee ,(in which I might
add Lucas was man of the match ) will know just how important he is to this Liverpool side. Its no secret we lost 11 out of 19 games bereft of the lads
considerable influence on our midfield.

Does it show Lucas' importance?  Or merely highlight that we have no defensive midfield cover?

For me, the latter is the big issue.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

To those that witnessed our season come to a shuddering halt against Chelsea when Lucas suffered the cruciate injury to his knee ,(in which I might
add Lucas was man of the match ) will know just how important he is to this Liverpool side. Its no secret we lost 11 out of 19 games bereft of the lads
considerable influence on our midfield.

Does it show Lucas' importance?  Or merely highlight that we have no defensive midfield cover?

For me, the latter is the big issue.

I think they're equally relevant issues ,so I would say both are pertinent questions.