Liverpool FC Forum

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Just out curiousity... which teams do you believe would snap your hand off?

Chelsea?
Arsenal?
Man Utd?
Man City?
Southampton?
Everton?
Newcastle?
Spurs?

You actually believe Lucas would get into any of those sides?

I don't even think he'd get into Hull or West Brom's team if I'm being honest.

To be honest, I understanded your clouded judgement as he's a Liverpool player and thats all you really see and take notice of. You seem to find it impossible to comprehend that good players play for other clubs... which makes it even more perplexing on your stance on Gerrard.

All of the above son ....and isn't the bit I've placed in bold a contradiction in terms ? ....think about it Stu 
Or perhaps I'm affording it too much respect by labelling it as such ,as it makes no fucking sense whatsoever 

[Stu the Red]

Just out curiousity... which teams do you believe would snap your hand off?

Chelsea?
Arsenal?
Man Utd?
Man City?
Southampton?
Everton?
Newcastle?
Spurs?

You actually believe Lucas would get into any of those sides?

I don't even think he'd get into Hull or West Brom's team if I'm being honest.

To be honest, I understanded your clouded judgement as he's a Liverpool player and thats all you really see and take notice of. You seem to find it impossible to comprehend that good players play for other clubs... which makes it even more perplexing on your stance on Gerrard.

All of the above son ....and isn't the bit I've placed in bold a contradiction in terms ? ....think about it Stu 
Or perhaps I'm affording it too much respect by labelling it as such ,as it makes no fucking sense whatsoever 

Really?

You believe all of those sides would take Lucas?

I think I may well have over estimated you in the past then.

He wouldn't get near the first eleven of any of those sides.

[Fowler_E7]

He wouldnt get into any top side, he just isnt good enough,there are so many premiership central midfielders i would take ahead of him.

[Stu the Red]

He wouldnt get into any top side, he just isnt good enough,there are so many premiership central midfielders i would take ahead of him.

To name them... (excluding our own) One or two its debatable they are out an out central midfielders (Like Barkley or Lallana).

Arsenal: Wilshire, Arteta, Flamini, Ramsey, Rosicky and Diaby

Chelsea: Lampard, Oscar and maybe Essien and Ramires... not seen enough of Essien (in his current state) to be 100%

City: Toure and probably Milner, not convinced by Garcia or the brazilian lad they have in there.

Southampton: Davis, Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Lallana

United: Carrick and Fellaini

Everton: Barkley, Barry would have said Osman a couple of years ago.

Newcastle: Tiote and Cabaye

Spurs: Dembele, Sigurdsson, Eriksen

Swans: De Guzman... would have considered Britton a couple of years ago, coming to the end now

West Brom: He'd get into their side

Villa: He'd get into Villa's team

Hull: Huddleston, he'd probably get in next to Huddlestone, not instead of.

Stoke: Ireland and Nzonzi

Cardiff: He'd get into their side, would need to see more of Whittingham to see if he's really developed

Norwich: I'd get a game and Lucas is slightly better than me

West Ham: Its debatable whether you'd play players like Nolan, Noble and Diame ahead of him. Probably not.

Fulham: He'd get a game all season

Palace: He'd play

Sunderland: Catermole and Gardner offer more in the midfield.

Anyone named I'd take instead of Lucas or at least put at a similar level.

[SouthCoastShankly]

He wouldnt get into any top side, he just isnt good enough,there are so many premiership central midfielders i would take ahead of him.

To name them... (excluding our own) One or two its debatable they are out an out central midfielders (Like Barkley or Lallana).

Arsenal: Wilshire, Arteta, Flamini, Ramsey, Rosicky and Diaby
Chelsea: Lampard, Oscar and maybe Essien and Ramires... not seen enough of Essien (in his current state) to be 100%
City: Toure and probably Milner, not convinced by Garcia or the brazilian lad they have in there.
Southampton: Davis, Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Lallana
United: Carrick and Fellaini
Everton: Barkley, Barry would have said Osman a couple of years ago.
Newcastle: Tiote and Cabaye
Spurs: Dembele, Sigurdsson, Eriksen
Swans: De Guzman... would have considered Britton a couple of years ago, coming to the end now
West Brom: He'd get into their side
Villa: He'd get into Villa's team
Hull: Huddleston, he'd probably get in next to Huddlestone, not instead of.
Stoke: Ireland and Nzonzi
Cardiff: He'd get into their side, would need to see more of Whittingham to see if he's really developed
Norwich: I'd get a game and Lucas is slightly better than me
West Ham: Its debatable whether you'd play players like Nolan, Noble and Diame ahead of him. Probably not.
Fulham: He'd get a game all season
Palace: He'd play
Sunderland: Catermole and Gardner offer more in the midfield.

Anyone named I'd take instead of Lucas or at least put at a similar level.

How about for a start we start comparing like for like, that might be a fairer battle. Based on your list, cutting out all the attacking midfielders and comparing Lucas to players who play a vaguely similar role to him. You get...

Arsenal:Arteta, Flamini and Diaby
Chelsea: Essien
City: Toure and probably Milner
Southampton: Davis, Wanyama
United: Fellaini
Everton: Barry
Newcastle: Tiote and Cabaye
Spurs: Dembele
Swans: De Guzman
Stoke: Nzonzi
Sunderland: Catermole and Gardner

I cut out over half of your suggestions, how on earth you can compare the likes of Lampard, Oscar, Ramsey, etc to Lucas is beyond me. Additionally why you think there is such a think as a CM, in top sides, anymore is also beyond me. What game are you watching?

No half decent side implements a CM role, they either have attack, defensive or playmaking midfielders. Gone are thew days of an all rounder. Gerrard was the last prime example and he barely fits that definition anymore.

Even in the cut down list the comparison to Lucas' defensive ability is laughable. You may not take Lucas over those players but I, along with many others I suspect, would take very few of them over Lucas.

Toure and Cabaye. Possibly Wanyama. The rest are either not playing a similar role to Lucas or by signing them you would have to change your setup of drop another LFC player who actually compares.

[supersub]

Lucas would be a huge asset to any team in the Premier League....thankfully we have him to nurse SG in his twilight years....it would be better for Liverpool if we got a better player to take SG's shirt then Lucas wouldn't have such a burden on his shoulders every game.

[Stu the Red]

Oh my word!

[paisleyred]

he has been average at best this season.......which is still light years ahead of wee Joe.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Really?

You believe all of those sides would take Lucas?

I think I may well have over estimated you in the past then.

He wouldn't get near the first eleven of any of those sides.

Its about opinions lad ,and the fact I don't share yours seems to aggrieve you somewhat .... I appreciate the job /thankless task Lucas does for the
reds ,whereas you quite obviously do not,but that's fine with me Stu because  I don't feel the need to question why you rate certain players because
I just dont fucking care enough lad. 

[maypaxvobiscum]

Lucas, one player that polarizes opinion so often.

First and foremost, before he is criticized, it's important to understand what his role is. As a defensive midfielder, he's tasked with breaking up attacks (from the opposition) and I guess to an extent, he's done that. However, nothing else can be expected from him. He's no Toure, Dembele or Cabaye, 3 players who will come up with a goal every 6 games. We missed a trick with Flamini for sure, who was available for free.

I reckon he's not good enough. You don't see the top European clubs chasing Lucas the way they chased Mascherano and even Sissoko. But that being said, our entire midfield isn't good enough and needs major upheaval. 

We need goal-scoring midfielders as that would lessen the scrutiny on Lucas, who would be able to focus solely on defending, which is what he does best.

Hopefully we see the likes of Hamsik or Dzagoev join us, as well as Suso being thrown into the first team squad. Allen isn't cutting it while Henderson is no attacking threat albeit being an incredibly hard worker. Gerrard is past it and he needs someone who can take over him once he closes in on retirement. That player clearly, is Barkley.

[metalhead]

Lucas, one player that polarizes opinion so often.

First and foremost, before he is criticized, it's important to understand what his role is. As a defensive midfielder, he's tasked with breaking up attacks (from the opposition) and I guess to an extent, he's done that. However, nothing else can be expected from him. He's no Toure, Dembele or Cabaye, 3 players who will come up with a goal every 6 games. We missed a trick with Flamini for sure, who was available for free.

I reckon he's not good enough. You don't see the top European clubs chasing Lucas the way they chased Mascherano and even Sissoko. But that being said, our entire midfield isn't good enough and needs major upheaval. 

We need goal-scoring midfielders as that would lessen the scrutiny on Lucas, who would be able to focus solely on defending, which is what he does best.

Hopefully we see the likes of Hamsik or Dzagoev join us, as well as Suso being thrown into the first team squad. Allen isn't cutting it while Henderson is no attacking threat albeit being an incredibly hard worker. Gerrard is past it and he needs someone who can take over him once he closes in on retirement. That player clearly, is Barkley.

A DM's or whatever role is also offer something with the ball when in possession. Schneiderlin does, Alonso, Makelele did before, Busquets too, Carrick, Barry, etc... They all are good footballers who aren't really one dimensional players and sat back as a 3rd center half just because to ''break up plays'', they broke up plays and actually offered something by building up plays from their own half, which Lucas fails to do over and over again. He never asks for the ball and he is so static in his movement that he never moves into space to receive the ball. I also find the argument about him being the best tackler in the league is flawed, because you have to count his tackling success rate, which Jordan Henderson has a better success rate. If lucas tackles the most, it doesn't mean he is the best tackler, he actually fouls a lot and gets a lot of bookings, which means he isn't good in that area as everyone says he is.

[maypaxvobiscum]

Hence why I said nothing else can be expected from him, though to be fair to him regarding fouls, the more you tackle, the more fouls you're likelier to commit. I'm surprised he's ahead of Fernandinho in the national team to be honest. I'm surprised he's even ON the national team to begin with

[Stu the Red]

He wouldnt get into any top side, he just isnt good enough,there are so many premiership central midfielders i would take ahead of him.

To name them... (excluding our own) One or two its debatable they are out an out central midfielders (Like Barkley or Lallana).

Arsenal: Wilshire, Arteta, Flamini, Ramsey, Rosicky and Diaby
Chelsea: Lampard, Oscar and maybe Essien and Ramires... not seen enough of Essien (in his current state) to be 100%
City: Toure and probably Milner, not convinced by Garcia or the brazilian lad they have in there.
Southampton: Davis, Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Lallana
United: Carrick and Fellaini
Everton: Barkley, Barry would have said Osman a couple of years ago.
Newcastle: Tiote and Cabaye
Spurs: Dembele, Sigurdsson, Eriksen
Swans: De Guzman... would have considered Britton a couple of years ago, coming to the end now
West Brom: He'd get into their side
Villa: He'd get into Villa's team
Hull: Huddleston, he'd probably get in next to Huddlestone, not instead of.
Stoke: Ireland and Nzonzi
Cardiff: He'd get into their side, would need to see more of Whittingham to see if he's really developed
Norwich: I'd get a game and Lucas is slightly better than me
West Ham: Its debatable whether you'd play players like Nolan, Noble and Diame ahead of him. Probably not.
Fulham: He'd get a game all season
Palace: He'd play
Sunderland: Catermole and Gardner offer more in the midfield.

Anyone named I'd take instead of Lucas or at least put at a similar level.

How about for a start we start comparing like for like, that might be a fairer battle. Based on your list, cutting out all the attacking midfielders and comparing Lucas to players who play a vaguely similar role to him. You get...

Arsenal:Arteta, Flamini and Diaby
Chelsea: Essien
City: Toure and probably Milner
Southampton: Davis, Wanyama
United: Fellaini
Everton: Barry
Newcastle: Tiote and Cabaye
Spurs: Dembele
Swans: De Guzman
Stoke: Nzonzi
Sunderland: Catermole and Gardner

I cut out over half of your suggestions, how on earth you can compare the likes of Lampard, Oscar, Ramsey, etc to Lucas is beyond me. Additionally why you think there is such a think as a CM, in top sides, anymore is also beyond me. What game are you watching?

No half decent side implements a CM role, they either have attack, defensive or playmaking midfielders. Gone are thew days of an all rounder. Gerrard was the last prime example and he barely fits that definition anymore.

Even in the cut down list the comparison to Lucas' defensive ability is laughable. You may not take Lucas over those players but I, along with many others I suspect, would take very few of them over Lucas.

Toure and Cabaye. Possibly Wanyama. The rest are either not playing a similar role to Lucas or by signing them you would have to change your setup of drop another LFC player who actually compares.

Quite a poorly thought out arguement that really to be quite honest.

You dismiss Schneiderlin as "not being comparible due to a "positional" difference (bearing in mind his main attributes are defensive qualities). Yet you include Arteta who played as a winger for Everton... You also leave in Dembele who is if anything... an attack minded midfielder... yet you take out Huddlestone, who's game is generally about play making from a deep position and tackling.

You then rant on about teams not playing "central midfielders" in the "old sense" and claim that "no half decent" side impliments this... yet... you're conveniently leaving out the league winners from last season who played a 4-4-2, obviously that doesn't suit your arguement so you'll take that as the exception rather than the rule... but whatever floats your boat. Also completely neglecting the fact that the current fad is to set up with three midfielders because there enough good pairings around to "control" a game doesn't strengthen your arguement.

The fact is, you can mask it up any way you like. You can paper over any cracks you like by promoting a strength... but the problem still remains the same. Lucas doesn't have enough strengths to perform to a quality standard. A central midfielder.... is a central midfielder... is a central midfielder... it really really is... as simple as that. You can mask it up any way you like, you can use "formation cliche *****" any way you like but the point still remains the same. Just incase what I'm saying baffles you... a central midfielder... tends to play in the centre of midfield So yes... they do still exist.

To do that, you're expected to contribute all over the pitch. Some will contribute a bit more defensively, some a bit more going forward, but you tend to find all the good players who've played here can contribute a lot to both. Occasionally you'll get a Zidane who doesn't do much defensively... or you'll get a Makelele who's that good defensively and controls the pace of a game that well that his deficiencies going forward can masked over by attacking players, but on the hole, midfielders are there to chip in with goals, set goals up, win tackles and try and establish a pattern in play which suits your side. Lucas doesn't control a game, doesn't get forward, doesn't set goals up, doesn't pin teams in their own half, can't beat players, doesn't pass a ball more than 15 yards, rarely crosses the half way line, doesn't have the pace to get up and down and gives away alot of cheap fouls.

If thats your idea of a top player... then thank christ you don't have anything to do with the club.

[metalhead]

But he is boss on FM 14, 4 goals and 5 assists so far

[Stu the Red]

But he is boss on FM 14, 4 goals and 5 assists so far

Does he have 20 work rate and 20 tacking?