Liverpool FC Forum

[only me]

The Gerrard thing is another matter. Again I'm unsure about BR. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but in my knowledge, he's the one that should be resting Gerrard, but the medical staff aren't amateurs. Surely someone would notice he's not influencing things as he does. I'd say though that if you plucked Lucas out and put Alonso in beside Gerrard, Stevie would soon be dominating games again. Lucas isn't in Gerrards class, and I believe Gerrard suffers for it. Not vice-versa.

That's excusing Gerrards poor form because of his partner ?

Why didn't Gerrard play poorly from last Jan then when he was alongside Lucas ?

I'm guessing people didn't complain about Lucas then when he was quietly going about his job.

Gerrard is playing poorly because he is suffering a drop in form - not because he is playing next to Lucas.

Yes and no ,Gerrad has dropped in form no doubt ,but if he had a stellar defensive midfielder behind him he wouldn't need to drop deep ,participate in defensive duties and then asked to take on attacking roles. Gerrard plays too close to Lucas as Leiva  isn't capable of pushing the ball forward effectively.

[only me]

http://eplindex.com/34672/lucas-lynchpin-stats-compared-to-rival-defensive-midfielders.html

  love those links and stats ,Where is the one showing we are doing better without Suarez?

[Benny The Noon]

How can people blame Gerrard for Lucas' failings? Gerrard is tired, but even now, at 33, he's twice the player Lucas will ever be. The very fact that people are favouring Lucas over the living legend that is Gerrard proves how poor Lucas has been.

It's all well and good pointing at the things Lucas does on the pitch, but take a step back and look at the things he dosen't do. He has ability, and should certainly be held on to. But he lacks in crucial elements for his position. The worst part of his game is the pressure he puts us under when, if he had the ability, he would be intercepting, getting a foot on the ball, cooling things down and setting us away on our own possession. How many times does he clear a ball to no one, or foul on the edge of the box? How many times does he get a yellow, meaning he can no longer give 100% in the physical side for danger of leaving us with 10 men? Sorry, but when your ball winner spends 45 minutes of a match on a yellow, you're at a disadvantage.

When was the lads last goal, or assist? When did he last lift the crowd with a great run, or a thundering tackle? He's a hard worker, but so are many players.

I find it hard to believe that some of us don't believe we can have someone challenging for his position. He looks complacent at the moment. As someone said earlier, he needs a boot up the bum.

Is there something I'm missing here ? Gerrard does absolutely f*ck all in the second half of games ,Lucas spends the next 45 trying to plug the gaping hole
Gerrard has left in th middle and poster's have got the audacity to challenge fans who appreciate Lucas for the job he does .I personally would prefer to remember Gerrard as the awe inspiring legend he was ,but to watch his steady decline week in and week out ,frankly its becoming painful to watch.

Have you never seen a midfielder dominate a game even when his partner dosent play well? Or when the team dosent? Of course you have. Gerrard. So if Lucas is so good, why can't he dominate instead? Why does he struggle if Gerrard dosen't play well?

The Gerrard "of old" wouldn't care if Lucas played bad. He'd do the work for both, and more! The tactics are all wrong. It's not because Gerrard, captain of Liverpool and England has suddenly gotten over some hill.

Why can an excuse be found for Gerrards poor form ?

Lucas isn't Gerrard and never will be - that is clear but when Gerrard is playing ***** ( and he currently is ) then it is ok to suggest that Gerrard is playing poorly because of his own form as opposed to looking to pin the blame on his teammates or tactics

[Benny The Noon]

The Gerrard thing is another matter. Again I'm unsure about BR. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but in my knowledge, he's the one that should be resting Gerrard, but the medical staff aren't amateurs. Surely someone would notice he's not influencing things as he does. I'd say though that if you plucked Lucas out and put Alonso in beside Gerrard, Stevie would soon be dominating games again. Lucas isn't in Gerrards class, and I believe Gerrard suffers for it. Not vice-versa.

That's excusing Gerrards poor form because of his partner ?

Why didn't Gerrard play poorly from last Jan then when he was alongside Lucas ?

I'm guessing people didn't complain about Lucas then when he was quietly going about his job.

Gerrard is playing poorly because he is suffering a drop in form - not because he is playing next to Lucas.

Yes and no ,Gerrad has dropped in form no doubt ,but if he had a stellar defensive midfielder behind him he wouldn't need to drop deep ,participate in defensive duties and then asked to take on attacking roles. Gerrard plays too close to Lucas as Leiva  isn't capable of pushing the ball forward effectively.

Again all your doing is trying to pin the blame of Gerrards poor form on Lucas

Maybe Gerrards poor form is harming Lucas because possibly it's Lucas that is having to cover for his partner at the moment

[Benny The Noon]

http://eplindex.com/34672/lucas-lynchpin-stats-compared-to-rival-defensive-midfielders.html

  love those links and stats ,Where is the one showing we are doing better without Suarez?

I have no idea - not sure what the link is.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Have you never seen a midfielder dominate a game even when his partner dosent play well? Or when the team dosent? Of course you have. Gerrard. So if Lucas is so good, why can't he dominate instead? Why does he struggle if Gerrard dosen't play well?

The Gerrard "of old" wouldn't care if Lucas played bad. He'd do the work for both, and more! The tactics are all wrong. It's not because Gerrard, captain of Liverpool and England has suddenly gotten over some hill.

I think your missing the point ,I didn't state he wasn't playing well ,I said after running himself into the ground for the first half ,he leaves a chasm in
our midfield when he goes missing. Lucas has been given a job to do and a specific set of instructions those are to defend and break up the play ,and
to my mind he does exactly that .

Whereas Gerrard, our glorious Captain is there to inspire ,Lucas is not .....see 'Dirty Work' Gerrard needs a rest ,some form of recuperation because
his second half performances are scarcely ones befitting such a wonderful player.

As for your question no I have never seen a defensive mid dominate proceeding in midfield when his midfield partner has decided to leave his position
and play with the back four ..Seriously what's so denigrating about suggesting that even the mythical figure that is Gerrard needs a fucking break ?

[red till i die!!]

if i was rodgers id consider dropping both, the 2 of em are stinking the place out playing together. gerrard clearly could do with a spell on the bench but rodgers wouldnt have the balls to do it, he has clearly lost pace where as lucas never had it to begin with and has always looked wrecked in the second half of games.
we can all see how poor they end up playing but you would have to wonder if the man in charge see's it also and what he will do about it.

[RedAnt]

I'm not comparing Lucas to Gerrard. I added input to comparisons others made, and others have had input into. I've said again and again that Gerrard needs a break. But RBG, you are suggesting Gerrard's past it by saying you'd like him to go out on a high, unless you're referring to the smaller scale of matches rather than career, then my mistake.

It seems that some defend Lucas to the point where he's now up against Gerrard. As said, they're a different class. Lucas will never dominate matches. He won't score many. He's a one trick pony, whereas Gerrard is complete.

Why though do Lucas defenders never address his obvious flaws? Why suggest I don't appreciate his input when I've backed him time and again?

The bottom line is Lucas is good at what he does, sometimes. But there are players out there who are excellent at what they do and more, often. Whilst I appreciate Lucas for his work rate, his loyalty and his bravery, I think we could have higher aspirations, whilst keeping Lucas as a player but realising he has an extremely narrow repertoire.

[Benny The Noon]

if i was rodgers id consider dropping both, the 2 of em are stinking the place out playing together. gerrard clearly could do with a spell on the bench but rodgers wouldnt have the balls to do it, he has clearly lost pace where as lucas never had it to begin with and has always looked wrecked in the second half of games.
we can all see how poor they end up playing but you would have to wonder if the man in charge see's it also and what he will do about it.

Drop them for who though ?

That's another problem - we have no options to replace them with

[only me]

Gerrard is playing poorly because he is suffering a drop in form - not because he is playing next to Lucas.[/quote]

Yes and no ,Gerrad has dropped in form no doubt ,but if he had a stellar defensive midfielder behind him he wouldn't need to drop deep ,participate in defensive duties and then asked to take on attacking roles. Gerrard plays too close to Lucas as Leiva  isn't capable of pushing the ball forward effectively.[/quote]

Again all your doing is trying to pin the blame of Gerrards poor form on Lucas

Maybe Gerrards poor form is harming Lucas because possibly it's Lucas that is having to cover for his partner at the moment[/quote]

Read my post again. I already answered this.

[Benny The Noon]

Gerrard is playing poorly because he is suffering a drop in form - not because he is playing next to Lucas.

Yes and no ,Gerrad has dropped in form no doubt ,but if he had a stellar defensive midfielder behind him he wouldn't need to drop deep ,participate in defensive duties and then asked to take on attacking roles. Gerrard plays too close to Lucas as Leiva  isn't capable of pushing the ball forward effectively.[/quote]

Again all your doing is trying to pin the blame of Gerrards poor form on Lucas

Maybe Gerrards poor form is harming Lucas because possibly it's Lucas that is having to cover for his partner at the moment[/quote]

Read my post again. I already answered this.[/quote]

Well you just sort of blamed it on Lucas again as most do


This always happens when we lose a few games - the spotlight of blame turns to Lucas

It's all quiet when we are winning though because he gets no praise.

Thankfully the people in the right places see what Lucas adds to the team - yes he has areas that are weak and he isn't the greatest CM in the world but he fills the role that BR wants exactly.

He does need competition and back up because we have no one

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

I'm not comparing Lucas to Gerrard. I added input to comparisons others made, and others have had input into. I've said again and again that Gerrard needs a break. But RBG, you are suggesting Gerrard's past it by saying you'd like him to go out on a high, unless you're referring to the smaller scale of matches rather than career, then my mistake.

It seems that some defend Lucas to the point where he's now up against Gerrard. As said, they're a different class. Lucas will never dominate matches. He won't score many. He's a one trick pony, whereas Gerrard is complete.

Why though do Lucas defenders never address his obvious flaws? Why suggest I don't appreciate his input when I've backed him time and again?

The bottom line is Lucas is good at what he does, sometimes. But there are players out there who are excellent at what they do and more, often. Whilst I appreciate Lucas for his work rate, his loyalty and his bravery, I think we could have higher aspirations, whilst keeping Lucas as a player but realising he has an extremely narrow repertoire.

I really think your jumping to conclusions there kid ,I have never refuted the fact that Gerrard on his day is one of the finest midfielder's Ive seen in a red
shirt,but currently he is doing nothing in the last 45 mins to aid our progression or indeed to collect three points. I will again reiterate what I have earlier
stated concerning Lucas .(often for some it tends to be to the point of regurgitation )I think Lucas follows Rodgers game plan as exactly as is plausible ,he
is there to disrupt any passage of play that's evolving in the centre ,he is there to constantly close down the opposition .......something Gerrard seems to
have developed an aversion to exacting.

I'm finding it really hard to believe that posters are more than willing to deflect the attention off Gerrards weak arse and dispirited performances by heaping the blame on a player whose absence we simply couldn't cope with when he was injured last season...... and along with the energy of Henderson
has probably been the prime reason we have held strong against our first four opponents in our pathetic second half displays when we have invited concerted
pressure on to our back four.

[only me]

Gerrard is playing poorly because he is suffering a drop in form - not because he is playing next to Lucas.

Yes and no ,Gerrad has dropped in form no doubt ,but if he had a stellar defensive midfielder behind him he wouldn't need to drop deep ,participate in defensive duties and then asked to take on attacking roles. Gerrard plays too close to Lucas as Leiva  isn't capable of pushing the ball forward effectively.

Again all your doing is trying to pin the blame of Gerrards poor form on Lucas

Maybe Gerrards poor form is harming Lucas because possibly it's Lucas that is having to cover for his partner at the moment[/quote]

Read my post again. I already answered this.[/quote]

Well you just sort of blamed it on Lucas again as most do


This always happens when we lose a few games - the spotlight of blame turns to Lucas

It's all quiet when we are winning though because he gets no praise.

Thankfully the people in the right places see what Lucas adds to the team - yes he has areas that are weak and he isn't the greatest CM in the world but he fills the role that BR wants exactly.

He does need competition and back up because we have no one[/quote]

The Topic isn't Gerrard but I offered a pretty simple explanation. SG has dropped in form ,he is less mobile and less fit then he was ,however is capable of doing the attacking roles to a high degree IF he isn't bound to defensive roles as well. This is where Lucas comes to play ,if he can't be trusted to hold the fort and make an EFFECTIVE pass forward ,then SG draws deeper and here we go again....

Lucas needs to be the competition for another CM ,he doesn't need a backup ,he should be the backup.

BR signed Allen to be Lucas replacement ,alas  this didn't work out. I'm pretty sure this position is on BR to-do list.

[RedAnt]

I'm not comparing Lucas to Gerrard. I added input to comparisons others made, and others have had input into. I've said again and again that Gerrard needs a break. But RBG, you are suggesting Gerrard's past it by saying you'd like him to go out on a high, unless you're referring to the smaller scale of matches rather than career, then my mistake.

It seems that some defend Lucas to the point where he's now up against Gerrard. As said, they're a different class. Lucas will never dominate matches. He won't score many. He's a one trick pony, whereas Gerrard is complete.

Why though do Lucas defenders never address his obvious flaws? Why suggest I don't appreciate his input when I've backed him time and again?

The bottom line is Lucas is good at what he does, sometimes. But there are players out there who are excellent at what they do and more, often. Whilst I appreciate Lucas for his work rate, his loyalty and his bravery, I think we could have higher aspirations, whilst keeping Lucas as a player but realising he has an extremely narrow repertoire.

I really think your jumping to conclusions there kid ,I have never refuted the fact that Gerrard on his day is one of the finest midfielder's Ive seen in a red
shirt,but currently he is doing nothing in the last 45 mins to aid our progression or indeed to collect three points. I will again reiterate what I have earlier
stated concerning Lucas .(often for some it tends to be to the point of regurgitation )I think Lucas follows Rodgers game plan as exactly as is plausible ,he
is there to disrupt any passage of play that's evolving in the centre ,he is there to constantly close down the opposition .......something Gerrard seems to
have developed an aversion to exacting.

I'm finding it really hard to believe that posters are more than willing to deflect the attention off Gerrards weak arse and dispirited performances by heaping the blame on a player whose absence we simply couldn't cope with when he was injured last season...... and along with the energy of Henderson
has probably been the prime reason we have held strong against our first four opponents in our pathetic second half displays when we have invited concerted
pressure on to our back four.

Actually we agree on plenty of points, but I think you're missing mine. And my response is aimed at a more general crowd, including Benny.

I don't entirely blame Lucas for SG's poor form. I blame many things, including Gerrard. I understand that you think Lucas fits the role, but where is the harm in having competition? If one midfielder can tackle but can't pass, why is it so hard to see the sense in a player who can do both being a better option? Lucas has good attributes, yes, but any manager in the world would like a better player.

But for all your Lucas trumpet blowing, and whilst acknowledging SG is vital but playing poorly, could you give your opinions on the free kicks he gives away? The yellow cards, misplaced passes and poor movement?

And also consider that a midfielder who can win the ball, then play it, I'd ultimately a better than one who can only win it. Especially true for a player in Lucas' role, since attack is the best form of defence.

BR likes to keep possession, so I'm not sure he is the perfect player.

[Benny The Noon]

Gerrard is playing poorly because he is suffering a drop in form - not because he is playing next to Lucas.

Yes and no ,Gerrad has dropped in form no doubt ,but if he had a stellar defensive midfielder behind him he wouldn't need to drop deep ,participate in defensive duties and then asked to take on attacking roles. Gerrard plays too close to Lucas as Leiva  isn't capable of pushing the ball forward effectively.

Again all your doing is trying to pin the blame of Gerrards poor form on Lucas

Maybe Gerrards poor form is harming Lucas because possibly it's Lucas that is having to cover for his partner at the moment

Read my post again. I already answered this.[/quote]

Well you just sort of blamed it on Lucas again as most do


This always happens when we lose a few games - the spotlight of blame turns to Lucas

It's all quiet when we are winning though because he gets no praise.

Thankfully the people in the right places see what Lucas adds to the team - yes he has areas that are weak and he isn't the greatest CM in the world but he fills the role that BR wants exactly.

He does need competition and back up because we have no one[/quote]

The Topic isn't Gerrard but I offered a pretty simple explanation. SG has dropped in form ,he is less mobile and less fit then he was ,however is capable of doing the attacking roles to a high degree IF he isn't bound to defensive roles as well. This is where Lucas comes to play ,if he can't be trusted to hold the fort and make an EFFECTIVE pass forward ,then SG draws deeper and here we go again....

Lucas needs to be the competition for another CM ,he doesn't need a backup ,he should be the backup.

BR signed Allen to be Lucas replacement ,alas  this didn't work out. I'm pretty sure this position is on BR to-do list.[/quote]

Sorry but when did BR say that Allen was signed as a replacement for Lucas ? Sorry but that's rubbish - Allen was bought to be part of a three alongside Gerrard and Lucas.

And again who has said that Lucas can't be trusted to hold the fort ? Think you need to read the article I posted early and it includes BR own words about the role of Lucas. Any pass that is completed is effective.