Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

The atmospehere, as I'm sure you would acknowledge, is not nearly as potent for your bog standard league game than it is on a European night. That in itself would support the idea that players probably don't go into a home game against Wigan for example, with the same type of burning desire to win, as they do against Inter. The supporters to a large extent provide motivation, and when they're not up for it, often the players aren't. Most players need encouragement, the likes of Mascherano andCarragher are sparse in modern day football.

But that still doesn't mean the players are less motivated to play and win in the epl. The fans on a European night push the players on, give them energy, drive them forward. How could anyone not respond to that? I don't and never will buy into the idea that the players are more motivated and have more will to win European games ahead of games in the epl.

Incidentally, it's ironic that Kuyt is probably cut from the same ilk as Carra and Mascherano in terms of attitude, effort and determination. You can add that to the list of reasons why Rafa keeps him in the team i guess.

It would be only natural to feel less motivated against Wigan, when the crowd is less boisterous and the game less glamorous, compared to Inter Milan. The motivation to win is greater. It shouldn't be the case, but it probably is with us.

[Scottbot]

It would be only natural to feel less motivated against Wigan, when the crowd is less boisterous and the game less glamorous, compared to Inter Milan. The motivation to win is greater. It shouldn't be the case, but it probably is with us.

Still don't buy it mate. Of course I can see the difference beween a game against Inter-Milan and Wigan, as you say one is a glamour tie and the other sounds pretty dull but not all European ties are so glamourous where we can end up playing the likes of Porto, Bordeaux, Fenerbache and Dynamo Kiev in the group stages. I guess you would have to ask the players what they would prefer to win (not that you'd get a straight answer) The Premier League or the Champions League? I'd like to think (and expect) it would be the Premier League. Do you think it would be the other way around?

[LFC2007]

No, but given our predicament in the league currently and over the past month and a bit, I think the desire to win is almost perfunctory. If we had managed to sustain a challenge I think the level of motivation to win would be higher, in part due to the fact that the crowd would probably be more boisterous.

[maguskwt]

It would be only natural to feel less motivated against Wigan, when the crowd is less boisterous and the game less glamorous, compared to Inter Milan. The motivation to win is greater. It shouldn't be the case, but it probably is with us.

Still don't buy it mate. Of course I can see the difference beween a game against Inter-Milan and Wigan, as you say one is a glamour tie and the other sounds pretty dull but not all European ties are so glamourous where we can end up playing the likes of Porto, Bordeaux, Fenerbache and Dynamo Kiev in the group stages. I guess you would have to ask the players what they would prefer to win (not that you'd get a straight answer) The Premier League or the Champions League? I'd like to think (and expect) it would be the Premier League. Do you think it would be the other way around?

we did struggle against porto, marsaille and besiktas now didnt' we? before we pulled ourselves together and thrashed them when our back was against the wall...similar scenario happened during the group stages in the year we won... in the league there aren't any such scenarios we just lag behind more and more until we realise too late that we are out of the picture...

[Bad Bob]

yes i've said in one of the match threads earlier that it's the same rafa, it's the same tactics, its the same squad, so why do we do well in europe and strugle in PL... and I've said that it must be down to motivation (style plays a part too of course)

Your saying that the players are more motivated to play in Europe than they are in England? Don't see how myself. I don't think (for one minute) that motivation comes into it. More likely it is down to a number of other contributing factors;

1) European football is and has always been very different to English League football (ie. pace, defensive style of play, physical nature, protection from referees etc)

2) It's knockout football. We're a great cup side and have been for nearly ten years now. Houllier had some success in Europe with a UEFA Cup win and a Champs League Quarter-Final to his name but it had nothing to do with motivation i'm sure.

3) The Anfield crowd is a MASSIVE ally when we go into European football. European teams fear coming to Anfield, English do not. You can forget the San Siro, the Bernabeau and dream on Gordon, Parkhead. For the European sides, Anfield is THE most influential stadium/crowd in football. The likes of Barca, Milan or Inter might not fear the 11 players in Red lined up opposite but they fear the crowd. If you've got an eseason ticket, go and watch the YNWA before the game on Tuesday and see the Inter players chatting nervously at eachother in the tunnel before the game. Like rabbits in headlights they were. Or check out the youtube rendition (all 8 minutes worth!) that i posted up in the Match thread. The fans are huge for LFC in Europe.

I'm not sure it's a conscious thing, Scott--as in, they're well up for playing in Europe but can't be ar.sed in the Prem.  Rather, I think there's a different level of expectation.  In Europe at this stage as well as in the Prem or domestic cups against the other big clubs, the lads know they're in tough and need to focus for 90+ minutes.  More often than not, they produce a performance worthy of a result (even if poor finishing, poor officiating, etc. sometimes deny us the result).  Against lesser sides--and I think this is true in the Prem, domestic cups and in Europe against the likes of Marseille (at home) or Besiktas--the lads seem like they expect the result a bit more.  The mentality seems to be: 'we'll get the job done eventually because we've got more quality than these.'  Often that's true (Luton at home; Boro yesterday, etc.) but occasionally it doesn't work out like that and we drop points/lose cup ties.  I think if the lads went into every game thinking it will be a tricky match that will require their complete focus throughout, we'd see a much more professional job of killing off lesser sides.  Sure, we'd still occasionally come up short--that's football--but I think we'd see it a lot less than we have been this season.

[JoeTerp]

That reminds me of when I played American Football in High School, our coach was ALWAYS telling us about how good the other team  was even though we knew they were . but he was constantly reinforcing or maybe in some cases lying to us about the quality of the other team and if it wasn't that then their coach had great tactics and if you don't prepare for them they will trick you on the pitch and make you look silly.  And then there was always the "if don't take care of the little guys, the big games don't matter" speech.   And on the flip side, when we would play the perenial champions, the speech was, we are just as good as them and 'Dematha" is only just a name.  In fact, to really reinforce it we called ourselves by their nickname all week so that when gameday came around we wouldn't be subconciously be beaten by the other team just showing up with Dematha on their shirts.

[Toffeehater]

3 points is 3 points , thought we did well going foward and responded well to boro taking  the lead , defensively we were , and i've been saying for months and i hope rafa has seen it too , none of our defence shud be here except riise , finnan mainly for back up , carragher , agger and skrtel , the rest shud be sold , i don't rate arbeloa and aurelio , kuyt worked hard but again rafa played him as winger and thats why he did not get much scoring opprturnities , thought mascherano shud have been off and their lad was off , Fa might take a closer look if boro appeal the red card , well done on torres for getting his hat trick , he's on 15 in the league and has hit the 20 mark already , with 12 premier league games to go . We need players like torres who are poachers , who take their chances and he took them well

[Sabre]

Scott says

1) European football is and has always been very different to English League football (ie. pace, defensive style of play, physical nature, protection from referees etc)

Yes it has been, but if in 1988 the distance was this <--------------------------> right now the difference is much smaller <------>.

You definitely have some different standards in refereeing. For instance the "keeper cannot be touched in the small box" rule that is constantly given in Europe isn't observed in England. The less fouls given, give less importance to set pieces situations compared to Spain. That definitely changes the game... but just a bit.

For everything else, it's the same fúcking game. I don't know hoy many evidences must be shown to realise of this:

* Juande Ramos, without a word of english has made Tottenham win the first cup in many years.

* You can see European and English team competing year in year out and the level is very similar. Foreign teams are not usually lost in the english pitchs due to that higher "rythm", cases like Besiktas, teams that walk rather than run, are not the common thing but the exception nowadays.

* Several foreign coaches triumph in England where as players like Torres adapt well since day one.

Yesterday we didn't see Liverpool struggling because of the different pace Scott. It had to do with bad decissions in passing, errors in the defence, mistakes that are always the same in England and in Spain, nothing to do with rythm and pace. Mistakes that have to do with concentration. I'd change 2 or 3 players for the next game, not because of rotation, but because of the rule "when you don't play well you have to be benched", which is universal as fúck.

So English football is genuine, has it's very own atmosphere and values, but basically a coach that gets the principles of football in Spain will get them in England and viceversa. Coleman, a good coach IMHO, needed only 3 weeks to know what was going on tactically. In  3 weeks he changed the formation and knew perfectly how was the spanish game. Because football is football.

[JoeTerp]

a lot more cuss words from the Sabre of late, unless I just wasn't noticing before

[The Manhattan Project]

Was Manhattan the only one who thought Boro's gold shorts looked like hot pants?

[dawson99]

Was Manhattan the only one who thought Boro's gold shorts looked like hot pants?

Manhattens the only one who wished they WERE hotpants.

By no means did the ersult mean we are out of the myre, but things ar on the up...torres is fantastic and boro were a team on a run. lets just take the momentum into the next game

[stmichael]

Three points is three points and that's the main thing, although the game itself was quite weird. I actually thought Boro played quite well and could easily of got something. The difference, not for the first time this season was that Spanish bloke upfront. Seems like quite a decent player.

Elements of our play were really good I thought and I like the formation that we seem to have adopted lately. I didn't think it would work at home but when it clicked it was really good. It just needs a little refinement but it could be worth persevering with possibly. The only problem I have with it, is that Gerrard doesn't excell in the position of a number 10 because he isn't one! Gerrard alongside Mascherano would be much better and I think it's clear we need a good link player, someone like Litmanen etc. If we could get someone like that, then it could work.

Anyway, back to the game....

At times some of the football was good but at other times we were f#cking woeful and it was very much a Jekyl and Hyde performance. Obviously Torres was really good but we were a bit lucky that they defended so poorly at times. We missed Carra a lot and the people who have suggested that his days are numbered, are grossly under-estimating his importance to the team. He organises everything and our shape looks much better defensively when he's out there.

I was disappointed with the subs. Babel was far from great and subbing him for Yossi was fair enough but taking Kuyt off for Riise totally disrupted our rhythm I thought and we suffered because of it. I thought Dirk looked good to be fair and he seems to be playing with a lot more confidence in the last few games.

It'll be interesting to see what the team will be like for the rest of the season as it's an interesting formation we've been playing.

[Sabre]

a lot more cuss words from the Sabre of late, unless I just wasn't noticing before

It's all your fault. I write what I read here. The more cuss I read, the more I write. Since Red37 isn't writting much as of late, Bad Bob isn't writting that much either, and Bigmick has been forced to make his posts shorter I have worse references now. 

[maguskwt]

That reminds me of when I played American Football in High School, our coach was ALWAYS telling us about how good the other team  was even though we knew they were . but he was constantly reinforcing or maybe in some cases lying to us about the quality of the other team and if it wasn't that then their coach had great tactics and if you don't prepare for them they will trick you on the pitch and make you look silly.  And then there was always the "if don't take care of the little guys, the big games don't matter" speech.   And on the flip side, when we would play the perenial champions, the speech was, we are just as good as them and 'Dematha" is only just a name.  In fact, to really reinforce it we called ourselves by their nickname all week so that when gameday came around we wouldn't be subconciously be beaten by the other team just showing up with Dematha on their shirts.

very interesting insight joe... i'm not saying that rafa doesn't know all those things or that he fails to do it... but maybe the way he inspire players aren't getting the necessary effects? I don't know... but it seems to me managers like ferguson, wenger and mourinho seem to have alot of effects on their players... I sometimes question whether the players are ready to die for the manager... perhaps there IS a dressing room problem which is fueling all these lacklustre performances... but this alleged motivation problem didn't start recently...

ps. take note all ye 'anti-rafas', a 'pro-rafa' just slammed rafa...and i'll put in this small note everytime I slam rafa so that the myth that pro-rafas think rafa can do no wrong is laid to rest forever... how many 'rafa's' was that in one sentece?

[NANNY RED]

A note on Kuyt, yesterday he worked hard, but also set up two goals to Torres, one with a simple pass but that has to be done, and the second one with a very good long ball.

Agreed Sabre Kuyt played well he was puttin some nice crosses in and the work rate from him again was faultless

I got the hump a bit with Babel this weelkend he needs to know when to release the ball he just holds it to long or tries to take one to many players on and his trackin back on Sat was woeful imo a little spell in the ressies wouldnt do him any harm