Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

In fairness saint we had Skrtel, Carra and Agger missing through bad timing of circumstance, we do have enough CBs we didn't have enough available. I'm not sure what's with playing Kuyt on the wing mind, rather reminiscent of Cisse and other past strikers played out of position

For the CB's that is exactly my point Owzat, as for playing Kuyt on the wing, he played on the wing against Inter and did ok , Rafa tried to play with as few changes as possible. To indicate it was because our squad is not good enough is what I was laughing at.

[bigmick]

It's one of the paradox's of the Rafa debate, that the people who think Rafa is doing a great job by and large think the squad is very ordinary, whereas those who think his methodology is wide of the mark think the squad is pretty good. I am fairly and squarly in the second camp, and think the manager can be criticised for many things but by and large has built a group of players which is plenty good enough to be competitive in the League. We seemingly have the capability to beat just about anybody in Europe so I can't really go for this "but the squads not good enough" line which gets trotted out every time we concede a couple of goals against a team which is a couple of divisions or more below us, at Home.

Unquestionably there are areas of the squad which need strengthening, but I don't follow the mantra of the "Rafa is actually doing a good job" group that it's rubbish. Equally, after four years I take the view that if the squad of players really isn't good enough to see off the likes of Barnsley, Havant and Waterlooville etc etc in the Cups and Everton and man City in the league with some comfort, then it probably makes sense to have a look at the bloke who has put the squad of players together, trains them, motivates them etc etc. No, theres too many contradictions in the stance that Rafa is great but our squads not, and even though he put it together it's not his fault at all and even though it's not we'll probably win the Champions League, but you are a bile spouting spanner if you expect us to ever mount a title challenge with thevery same bunch of players which may win that Champions League for me. Similarly, i can't quite get my head around this idea that poor old rafa has to play Kuyt on the wing because all the wingers atre useless and its not his fault at all even though he bought them. It's way too confusing.

I actually like Kuyt on the left wing (I decided this after i saw him play there against Inter). I think he's better than anybody else we've got there at the moment. That's because we haven't got a wide midfielder of genuine quality at the club (with the obvious exception  of the captain). If that renders the squad incapable of doing anything in English football (which it emphatically doesn't in my view) then it's probably because we haven't bought the right players. Out there I know but that's how I see it to be perfectly honest.

[Sabre]

Well I've read John Craig yesterday saying that there was 1 unforced change only and that helps to victory.

The antirotationist should have not put a game like yesterday as an example of the benefits of not rotating, for many reasons (1), but especially  because we actually played not very well, made the same mistakes of all season, and conceded too many opportunities to the opposition. We were lucky that their player decided to touch it with the arm, because the dispossession up front (should be avoided) and the defensive mistake was there. We conceded again in a silly way in a set pieces situation. We definitely didn't play well.

Yesterday we won because we had a touch of genius in Torres. When you play badly, you can solve this games with utter quality. But I ended up the game not too happy with the collective game and some players. A more solid opposition would have made us upset yesterday.

All in all, 3 points, which is the most important thing. Rafa must keep working to get right things in this team.


(1)

It won't of course have made any difference to our performance (non-rotation Rafa style would need a few games before you saw any real benefits)

This disclaimer of BM is important and another reason not to put the game as an example.

[Sabre]

That's especially true for the first, where he had so much time to think.  You see many strikers bottle it when they have to decide what to do one-on-one with the keeper.

Thats a good point, earlier on in the season he looked hesitant when faced with a one on one and missed a few chances , I think someone mentioned that about him before we signed him.

Sabre 

 

Yeah. I just didn't want to be libelous by naming him without trudging through the old posts to find it.

I'm chuffed he's performing very well. What did you want I tell you back then mate? I've seen a player not making goals, a lot of season, failing a lot, and with his team out of Europe. How could you want that I gave you a good report about him? I just told you what I saw until then, and not only me, but many people around here had his doubts. I never doubted he's quality, I doubted he was actually able to have the numbers he's achieving now, world class numbers.

That said, seeing him scoring 20 makes me happy. If he had a season like this in the past, I would have thought otherwise, but this is the first season in all his career that I see Torres at this very top level. Until now, he was simply a very good striker, but not perhaps the definite striker for a top club. That's why I was reluctant to sign him.

I hope he keeps proving me wrong every season 

[Sabre]

A note on Kuyt, yesterday he worked hard, but also set up two goals to Torres, one with a simple pass but that has to be done, and the second one with a very good long ball.

[LFC2007]

It's one of the paradox's of the Rafa debate, that the people who think Rafa is doing a great job by and large think the squad is very ordinary, whereas those who think his methodology is wide of the mark think the squad is pretty good. I am fairly and squarly in the second camp, and think the manager can be criticised for many things but by and large has built a group of players which is plenty good enough to be competitive in the League. We seemingly have the capability to beat just about anybody in Europe so I can't really go for this "but the squads not good enough" line which gets trotted out every time we concede a couple of goals against a team which is a couple of divisions or more below us, at Home.

I think you're wrong, those who support Rafa invariably don't think he's done a great job, more; a good job overall under difficult circumstances. Equally, I don't feel the consensus is that those who support the manager believe we have a 'very ordinary' squad, more; a good squad assembled with a relative lack of funds and 'pulling power'. In order to get that top quality which defines the margins between title challenge/top four finish, invariably you need significant funds. Doing a 'wenger' is difficult. Suffice to say, those who support Rafa do criticise his signings and believe for the money we've spent on certain players we might have got better quality for our money elsewhere. European football is different to EPL football, most EPL teams the other night would've pressed us with far greater efficiency. It's a much more pressured style of game, and under these circumstances, you need players who can handle the ball well in tight spaces, can infiltrate space and get a shot off quickly. We don't have enough of these types of players. In Europe the pace is slower, there isn't always a necessity to score, the players on the whole appear more motivated in these games and generally up their game. The squad is certainly not 'as good as any other in the league', but just because we do well in Europe and not so well in the EPL against much lesser teams is more down to style of play and motivation than the quality of the squad.

[maguskwt]

the irony is that in reality it is you who seem to be having a few problems grasping things because my post was a tongue-in-cheek response to big mick's post which was itself a sarcastic remark towards emerald's post... even though I maintain that our squad IS not good enought that can be discussed in other threads (for eg. why did rafa CHOOSE to play kuyt as a winger? he took pity on him and let him play in a position where he will have more time instead of our awesome wingers? or perhaps maybe he's not too impressed with out wingers themselves? )... get a grip saint... 

I understood exactly what your post was, more drivel. Our squads not good enough because we had to play Arbeloa and Hyypia    We had to play Kuyt on the wing 

Get a clue lad

oh yeah ok... so why DID we play kuyt as a winger? dont' pms too much...

[maguskwt]

It's one of the paradox's of the Rafa debate, that the people who think Rafa is doing a great job by and large think the squad is very ordinary, whereas those who think his methodology is wide of the mark think the squad is pretty good. I am fairly and squarly in the second camp, and think the manager can be criticised for many things but by and large has built a group of players which is plenty good enough to be competitive in the League. We seemingly have the capability to beat just about anybody in Europe so I can't really go for this "but the squads not good enough" line which gets trotted out every time we concede a couple of goals against a team which is a couple of divisions or more below us, at Home.

I think you're wrong, those who support Rafa invariably don't think he's done a great job, more; a good job overall under difficult circumstances. Equally, I don't feel the consensus is that those who support the manager believe we have a 'very ordinary' squad, more; a good squad assembled with a relative lack of funds and 'pulling power'. In order to get that top quality which defines the margins between title challenge/top four finish, invariably you need significant funds. Doing a 'wenger' is difficult. Suffice to say, those who support Rafa do criticise his signings and believe for the money we've spent on certain players we might have got better quality for our money elsewhere. European football is different to EPL football, most EPL teams the other night would've pressed us with far greater efficiency. It's a much more pressured style of game, and under these circumstances, you need players who can handle the ball well in tight spaces, can infiltrate space and get a shot off quickly. We don't have enough of these types of players. In Europe the pace is slower, there isn't always a necessity to score, the players on the whole appear more motivated in these games and generally up their game. The squad is certainly not 'as good as any other in the league', but just because we do well in Europe and not so well in the EPL against much lesser teams is more down to style of play and motivation than the quality of the squad.

yes i've said in one of the match threads earlier that it's the same rafa, it's the same tactics, its the same squad, so why do we do well in europe and strugle in PL... and I've said that it must be down to motivation (style plays a part too of course)... somehow our players are very lacklustre in the league... and to instill the winning mentality in the league is really down to rafa (so who's kissing rafa's all the time?)

having said that even if our players play with the same enthusiam and urgency in the league I don't see us being favourites for the title...we will be up there competing and probably have an outside chance of winning it but we're clearly not the favourites... and that is purely down to the quality of squad...

[Scottbot]

oh yeah ok... so why DID we play kuyt as a winger?

Several reasons i guess;

1) Rafa likes the player (whether we agree or not) and wants him in the team

2) He's trying to take a little bit of pressure off the player by playing him on the wing

3) The player(s) he bought to play right-wing are not good enough

4) By playing Kuyt on the wing Rafa can allow Gerrard to go just about anywhere he wants without compromising his own defence first principles

[Scottbot]

yes i've said in one of the match threads earlier that it's the same rafa, it's the same tactics, its the same squad, so why do we do well in europe and strugle in PL... and I've said that it must be down to motivation (style plays a part too of course)

Your saying that the players are more motivated to play in Europe than they are in England? Don't see how myself. I don't think (for one minute) that motivation comes into it. More likely it is down to a number of other contributing factors;

1) European football is and has always been very different to English League football (ie. pace, defensive style of play, physical nature, protection from referees etc)

2) It's knockout football. We're a great cup side and have been for nearly ten years now. Houllier had some success in Europe with a UEFA Cup win and a Champs League Quarter-Final to his name but it had nothing to do with motivation i'm sure.

3) The Anfield crowd is a MASSIVE ally when we go into European football. European teams fear coming to Anfield, English do not. You can forget the San Siro, the Bernabeau and dream on Gordon, Parkhead. For the European sides, Anfield is THE most influential stadium/crowd in football. The likes of Barca, Milan or Inter might not fear the 11 players in Red lined up opposite but they fear the crowd. If you've got an eseason ticket, go and watch the YNWA before the game on Tuesday and see the Inter players chatting nervously at eachother in the tunnel before the game. Like rabbits in headlights they were. Or check out the youtube rendition (all 8 minutes worth!) that i posted up in the Match thread. The fans are huge for LFC in Europe.

[maguskwt]

oh yeah ok... so why DID we play kuyt as a winger?

Several reasons i guess;

1) Rafa likes the player (whether we agree or not) and wants him in the team

2) He's trying to take a little bit of pressure off the player by playing him on the wing

3) The player(s) he bought to play right-wing are not good enough

4) By playing Kuyt on the wing Rafa can allow Gerrard to go just about anywhere he wants without compromising his own defence first principles

1) ok yes rafa may like the player

2) don't think so... I believe rafa is professional enough to put the best option in a position and his decision should not be swayed by trying to give some leeway to kuyt

3) very possible

4) very sensible... Kuyt can back track more than pennant and he has more stamina...

[LFC2007]

yes i've said in one of the match threads earlier that it's the same rafa, it's the same tactics, its the same squad, so why do we do well in europe and strugle in PL... and I've said that it must be down to motivation (style plays a part too of course)

Your saying that the players are more motivated to play in Europe than they are in England? Don't see how myself. I don't think (for one minute) that motivation comes into it. More likely it is down to a number of other contributing factors;

1) European football is and has always been very different to English League football (ie. pace, defensive style of play, physical nature, protection from referees etc)

2) It's knockout football. We're a great cup side and have been for nearly ten years now. Houllier had some success in Europe with a UEFA Cup win and a Champs League Quarter-Final to his name but it had nothing to do with motivation i'm sure.

3) The Anfield crowd is a MASSIVE ally when we go into European football. European teams fear coming to Anfield, English do not. You can forget the San Siro, the Bernabeau and dream on Gordon, Parkhead. For the European sides, Anfield is THE most influential stadium/crowd in football. The likes of Barca, Milan or Inter might not fear the 11 players in Red lined up opposite but they fear the crowd. If you've got an eseason ticket, go and watch the YNWA before the game on Tuesday and see the Inter players chatting nervously at eachother in the tunnel before the game. Like rabbits in headlights they were. Or check out the youtube rendition (all 8 minutes worth!) that i posted up in the Match thread. The fans are huge for LFC in Europe.

The atmospehere, as I'm sure you would acknowledge, is not nearly as potent for your bog standard league game than it is on a European night. That in itself would support the idea that players probably don't go into a home game against Wigan for example, with the same type of burning desire to win, as they do against Inter. The supporters to a large extent provide motivation, and when they're not up for it, often the players aren't. Most players need encouragement, the likes of Mascherano andCarragher are sparse in modern day football.

[account deleted by request]

the irony is that in reality it is you who seem to be having a few problems grasping things because my post was a tongue-in-cheek response to big mick's post which was itself a sarcastic remark towards emerald's post... even though I maintain that our squad IS not good enought that can be discussed in other threads (for eg. why did rafa CHOOSE to play kuyt as a winger? he took pity on him and let him play in a position where he will have more time instead of our awesome wingers? or perhaps maybe he's not too impressed with out wingers themselves? )... get a grip saint... 

I understood exactly what your post was, more drivel. Our squads not good enough because we had to play Arbeloa and Hyypia    We had to play Kuyt on the wing 

Get a clue lad

oh yeah ok... so why DID we play kuyt as a winger? dont' pms too much...

I think you will find it was because Rafa picked him and told him to play there.

[maguskwt]

yes i've said in one of the match threads earlier that it's the same rafa, it's the same tactics, its the same squad, so why do we do well in europe and strugle in PL... and I've said that it must be down to motivation (style plays a part too of course)

Your saying that the players are more motivated to play in Europe than they are in England? Don't see how myself. I don't think (for one minute) that motivation comes into it. More likely it is down to a number of other contributing factors;

1) European football is and has always been very different to English League football (ie. pace, defensive style of play, physical nature, protection from referees etc)

2) It's knockout football. We're a great cup side and have been for nearly ten years now. Houllier had some success in Europe with a UEFA Cup win and a Champs League Quarter-Final to his name but it had nothing to do with motivation i'm sure.

3) The Anfield crowd is a MASSIVE ally when we go into European football. European teams fear coming to Anfield, English do not. You can forget the San Siro, the Bernabeau and dream on Gordon, Parkhead. For the European sides, Anfield is THE most influential stadium/crowd in football. The likes of Barca, Milan or Inter might not fear the 11 players in Red lined up opposite but they fear the crowd. If you've got an eseason ticket, go and watch the YNWA before the game on Tuesday and see the Inter players chatting nervously at eachother in the tunnel before the game. Like rabbits in headlights they were. Or check out the youtube rendition (all 8 minutes worth!) that i posted up in the Match thread. The fans are huge for LFC in Europe.

yes mate i've checked out the video clip... truely awesome and that maybe a factor too... and the european format is a sensible reasoning also... but i'm talking about the level of game we can play against the better teams and that includes both europe and england... even though we didn't get results against chelsea, arsenal, man u, we played very very well... how then can we not produce this performance week in week out? it must be down to motivation as well as squad quality.... the mancs dont' play well all the time but they keep winning games becase of individual quality... last minute goals by tevez, rooney, ronaldo etc etc even when they play ...

[Scottbot]

The atmospehere, as I'm sure you would acknowledge, is not nearly as potent for your bog standard league game than it is on a European night. That in itself would support the idea that players probably don't go into a home game against Wigan for example, with the same type of burning desire to win, as they do against Inter. The supporters to a large extent provide motivation, and when they're not up for it, often the players aren't. Most players need encouragement, the likes of Mascherano andCarragher are sparse in modern day football.

But that still doesn't mean the players are less motivated to play and win in the epl. The fans on a European night push the players on, give them energy, drive them forward. How could anyone not respond to that? I don't and never will buy into the idea that the players are more motivated and have more will to win European games ahead of games in the epl.

Incidentally, it's ironic that Kuyt is probably cut from the same ilk as Carra and Mascherano in terms of attitude, effort and determination. You can add that to the list of reasons why Rafa keeps him in the team i guess.