Liverpool FC Forum

[mungi]

yea but masherano tends to play short simple passes. where xabi tries the risky defence splitting passes which sometimes can be unsuccessful. its insane to compare very different players.

But they are both in competition for the same position (if not the same role) in the team so it would be silly not to compare the two.

Riise and Kewell are also very different players but I know which I prefer to play left midfield.

but we tend to play differently when we have alonso on the field instead of masherano. same when crouch is on. our style changes. therefore how can we compare the 2 of them when they bring something different to the team and have different styles. although the compete for teh same Cm we should be discussing when we should have alonso start instead of masherano. and vice versa. hu would u start in the man u game (if both were fully fit)

[account deleted by request]

yea but masherano tends to play short simple passes. where xabi tries the risky defence splitting passes which sometimes can be unsuccessful. its insane to compare very different players.

But they are both in competition for the same position (if not the same role) in the team so it would be silly not to compare the two.

Riise and Kewell are also very different players but I know which I prefer to play left midfield.

but we tend to play differently when we have alonso on the field instead of masherano. same when crouch is on. our style changes. therefore how can we compare the 2 of them when they bring something different to the team and have different styles. although the compete for teh same Cm we should be discussing when we should have alonso start instead of masherano. and vice versa. hu would u start in the man u game (if both were fully fit)

I think Masch is slightly the better player, so I would play Masch in all the big games, Alonso when Masch needs a rest or is injured/off form.

I still have doubts about the pairing of Alonso and Gerrard together anyway, so while Gerrard is in top form.... its gotta be monster Masch for me.

[NANNY RED]

yea but masherano tends to play short simple passes. where xabi tries the risky defence splitting passes which sometimes can be unsuccessful. its insane to compare very different players.

But they are both in competition for the same position (if not the same role) in the team so it would be silly not to compare the two.

Riise and Kewell are also very different players but I know which I prefer to play left midfield.

but we tend to play differently when we have alonso on the field instead of masherano. same when crouch is on. our style changes. therefore how can we compare the 2 of them when they bring something different to the team and have different styles. although the compete for teh same Cm we should be discussing when we should have alonso start instead of masherano. and vice versa. hu would u start in the man u game (if both were fully fit)

I think Masch is slightly the better player, so I would play Masch in all the big games, Alonso when Masch needs a rest or is injured/off form.

I still have doubts about the pairing of Alonso and Gerrard together anyway, so while Gerrard is in top form.... its gotta be monster Masch for me.

But what a great situation to be in Saint havin 2 exellent players like them to chose from its about time this happend.

Xabi just edges it for me though

[Sabre]

Yes there has been much learning done over the last few weeks. Some of us ardent anti-rotationers have marvelled at how well the team has played, and have had to admit that the light at the end of the tunnel visa-vis number of rotations (although a sneaking feeling persists that if we played Pompey and Birmingham in consecutive matches now, Torres wouldn't be sat on his erse for both of them) was no such thing. Despite however the changes coming thick and fast, the team has probably been in the richest run of form since rafa took over.

For my part, the defending in particular has made me sit up and blink. It really is a testimony to Rafa's coaching ability that despite the chopping and changing of the full-backs, we have managed to defend set-pieces in particular with apparent ease, despite the changes. As I said a couple of pages ago, the zonal marking and lack of offside trap does make it easier but whatever, credit where credit is due it has been a fantastic achievement and something I wouldn't have thought possible (or if you prefer something I'd have been totally wrong about ).

Similarly, the more ardent followers of Alonso would probably have to concede that perhaps he isn't quite such an integral figure as they imagined. The so-called "unseen work" is presumeably still unseen because it's now getting done by somebody else, while the rhythm and flow which he undoubtedly brings to the game is also coming from elsewhere.

For my part, despite the above I've been a bit disappointed in Masherano and TBH, despite calling it different before I'd still have Alonso back in the side if fit (although obviously he won't play Sunday). Hopefully however, the proof that the team can function without him over a sutained period will have the dual effect of perhaps encouraging Xabi to move out of his comfort zone and revisit the excellent form he showed in his first season, and perhaps it will also temper some of his most ardent fans just a fraction.

Well, I just know that when Alonso was available he played almost if not all premiership games this season. I also know he has signed a contract until 2012, and that Rafa himself considers him a key player, so yes, I don't have any reasons to think that he's not a very important member of this squad.

In the blip, many posters that now seem to be boasting and gloating in quite a funny and traditional way by them, talked about Gerrard's and Mascherano's bad performances, while some of us said we'd see more of that couple.

So as he traditionally does Peewee is putting the posters in very separated corners and antagonical positions, because we don't truly think that way.

My self, A so called Alonso brigade poster, has defended and praised Mascherano since he came here. I also see that, thanks to quality midfielders like Mascherano, when Alonso is injured you can now play a quality midfielder and we won't miss him that much.

But that means we were wrong by admiring Alonso? Hell no, seriously if someone questions the quality of Alonso as a midfielder, he has a serious bias or understanding of football problem.

Of course Mascherano is a great player. Of course a midfield made by Gerrard and Mascherano doesn't have to MISS nor Alonso nor ANYONE. It's good to have quality players to rotate. An asset for the club.

But that doesn't mean we were wrong praising Alonso. If Mascherano is injured 3 weeks, Alonso would be able perfectly to give Liverpool a quality midfield alongside Gerrard, and Mascherano wouldn't be that missed either.

So excuse me Peewee, but we're not as far in our positions as you argue now. We're (1) not so extremists in our positions.


(1) The Alonso brigadists, Lando, Nanny, Bad Bob Sabre, Adamnbarret, you know it's a big list of fans of Alonso

(2) And for the record, and despite I like Alonso slightly more than Mascherano, I also agree that Mascherano should play ahead of him for this incoming game, it wouldn't be wise to give Alonso suddenly that game after being inactive. Our positions are not white or black, but grey, FFS!

[Bad Bob]

To elaborate, I think Mascherano is a fantastic player but doesn't do enough with the ball going forward.  In terms of distribution, Alonso is a better option.  Defensively, I don't think Alonso matches the Argentine in terms of pace or tenacity in harrying ball carriers but his defensive positioning and tackling are superior (Masch opts for the risky slide tackle too often, IMO) so it's fairly close in that department.  Overall then, Alonso shades it for me and I'll be happy to have him back.

maybe if you went to a game you will see the work all the players do off the ball, obviously watching on tv you can only see what they show, sadly this is the same for me the last 5 years but thats why I try and talk about things i know about as opposed to speculating on who is the better player, they both have their plus points but the fact we have performed very well without alonso speaks volumes and shows people can stop blaming the 'blip' on his absence

At one point you were suggesting the blip was down to Pako leaving and that our recovery was due to Rafa seeing the light!  I'm waiting for the day when you stick to talking about things you know.

[Bad Bob]

Some stats :-

               
                     Mascherano               Alonso
mins played       608                        506
Assists                 1                          0
Passes              468                       299
Passing success   82.1%                  77.6%
tackles               63                       17
Tackles success   69.8%                  58.8%
interceptions       25                        12

Link to stats

So surprisingly Mascherano seems to beat Alonso in EVERY Catagory except goals scored (Alonso 2, including one fluke) It also seems to defeat the strange idea that Alonso is the better tackler.

Alright, mate, I'll concede on the tackling issue.  Although, I must say that some of Mascherano's slide tackles are a bit too rash and that he sometimes gives the ball away too easily with an errant pass in the centre of the park, leading to a rash slide tackle (of course, Xabi sometimes gets caught in possession too easily, leading to a trip, so there you go).  Defensively they are close but going forward, I still prefer Xabi and his range of passing.  Plus, Xabi can put in some effective free kicks for us on top of offering an occasional goal threat, something we've yet to see from Mascherano.

That said, when one is sat down for the other I never, ever worry about how the team will cope.  Indeed, this may be the one pair in the entire team where rotation costs us virtually nothing in terms of the quality of player we can put out.  I'm a firm advocate that we should sign Mascherano permanently and keep both for a long time to partner Stevie.

[dawson99]

Daws are Paddy Power still givin 100/1 for a Torres hattrick

i like 5/2 a sub to score in 90 minutes as well, decent price considering who we will have on the bench

yep, i like paddys 175/1 on a stevie g hat trick meself

[account deleted by request]

Rafa's view of the big match :-


Rafa Manchester United up next. How would you assess your own record against them?
 
If you analyse the statistics it is not the best but if you think about the games then all of them were really close. We lost 1-0 at home and 2-0 away last season. The away game was maybe the worst one but we controlled that game for the first 35 minutes. We had a very good idea of what to do and we were doing the right things but we couldn't score. Why? Because they have very good players and sometimes you can't score. At Anfield we were much better than them but we conceded a goal in the last minute from a free-kick. It was disappointing but we know we are really close to them.
 
You played well against Chelsea and drew the game, the same against Arsenal, so how vital is it that you win this game against another top four team?
 
I think it's important to win every game, especially at home. We have won a lot of games away from home and it's much better than last season. At home last season we had a very good record. This year, it's not bad because we have played against two of the top sides but we I think we can improve. If we can win against United this weekend it will be much better for our confidence and we can be more closer to the top. It's an important game for us and we must try and play at 100 per cent level the whole game.
 
The fans are desperate to win the league title. Does that make this Sunday's match 'must win' for you?
 
Always it's important to beat United, for our supporters and the rivalry between both clubs. We want to beat them and this year we are more closer to the top of the table so we have confidence. I think it will be a special game for us.
 
Do you think you have to win the game then?
 
At Liverpool you always have to win. If you asked the same question to (Sir Alex) Ferguson then he would say the same.
 
This fixture is always billed as the one to watch. Do you feel you now have the squad to match and beat Manchester United?
 
Yes. I think we were really close last season and we beat them in the FA Cup at home in 2005. The other games were really close. Also, they have spent a lot of money. People say you have spent a lot of money so you should win the title but they have spent more money than us. The question is they have a very good team and very good players. We also have the same and I think we can be closer this year and we can beat them.
 
In recent fixtures over the years you have conceded last minute goals to United. Is that something you will be telling your players to keep their concentration?
 
We conceded after 89 minutes last season so our idea is to be focused and concentrate for the whole game. I always say the small details can be a big difference.
 
How confident are the squad after that performance in Marseille?
 
Everyone is really happy and in training the atmosphere is really good. We scored four goals in midweek at a stadium that is not easy to win in and we have a lot of confidence.
 
Jamie Carragher said during the week that he felt he thrived on 'must win' games and said that is similar a feeling throughout the squad. Is that something you would agree with Rafa that your players produce their best when they are under pressure?
 
I feel that we have experience in these type of games. It's more difficult to play well when you are under pressure but we have showed character in a lot of games. I think we have the quality and the experience.
 
Steven Gerrard became the club's top record scorer in Europe in midweek. To score 23 goals from midfield is an unbelievable record what can he go on to achieve.
 
I think for a midfielder it's really difficult to score 23 goals in Europe but when you see a player with the quality of Steve you can understand why. He is very consistent and I think he will score a lot more goals in Europe for a very long time.
 
Somebody looking for that consistency is now Harry Kewell who got two assists in Marseille. He seems to be really showing he's a force to be reckoned with now he's back from injury…
 
Yes, we are really pleased with him. He is training well and playing well. He was a key player for us in Marseille.
 
In previous games against United you have had a lot of possession but maybe lacked ruthlessness and a cutting edge up front. Does Fernando Torres give you that?
 
Yes he gives us a lot more options. He can score goals and create goals for others and he is a big player for us.

[Dundalk]

Gerrard looks a good bet first first goal. There is some good value to be had with Hyypia at 33/1



Fernando Torres     11/2 
Peter Crouch 8/1
Dirk Kuyt 8/1
Steven Gerrard 9/1
Carlos Tevez 9/1
Andriy Voronin 9/1
Louis Saha 9/1
Ryan Babel 9/1
Wayne Rooney 9/1
Cristiano Ronaldo 9/1
Ryan Giggs 12/1
Yossi Benayoun 14/1
Nani 14/1
John Arne Riise 16/1
Anderson 20/1
Harry Kewell 20/1
Michael Carrick 20/1
Sami Hyypia  33/1

[jeff capes]

lets face it the ref won't allow liverpool to win .

its their opportunity to give brian barwick a slap in the face.

thats why we need an outstanding team and manager to win the league.

they will not allow us to sneak the league like benitez did in spain.

if we want it we are going to have do it with loads to spare.

if torres scores in this match then he is the chosen one.
in the past we seem to have strikers who have no will or desire to dare score against manu......i wonder if bruce grobellar will be watching tomorrow.

its strange i usually go into these matches thinking we will finally get revenge in the league but this time all i see is a 3-1 defeat for us and the usual stuff about benitez.

[metalhead]

lets face it the ref won't allow liverpool to win .

its their opportunity to give brian barwick a slap in the face.

thats why we need an outstanding team and manager to win the league.

they will not allow us to sneak the league like benitez did in spain.

if we want it we are going to have do it with loads to spare.

if torres scores in this match then he is the chosen one.
in the past we seem to have strikers who have no will or desire to dare score against manu......i wonder if bruce grobellar will be watching tomorrow.

its strange i usually go into these matches thinking we will finally get revenge in the league but this time all i see is a 3-1 defeat for us and the usual stuff about benitez.

so why don't you go support Man u instead?


noob

[Bad Bob]

lets face it the ref won't allow liverpool to win .

its their opportunity to give brian barwick a slap in the face.

thats why we need an outstanding team and manager to win the league.

they will not allow us to sneak the league like benitez did in spain.

if we want it we are going to have do it with loads to spare.

if torres scores in this match then he is the chosen one.
in the past we seem to have strikers who have no will or desire to dare score against manu......i wonder if bruce grobellar will be watching tomorrow.

its strange i usually go into these matches thinking we will finally get revenge in the league but this time all i see is a 3-1 defeat for us and the usual stuff about benitez.

Just so I'm clear, are you suggesting that the league's referees, proud Englishmen that they are, will look to embarrass the FA for its decision to appoint Capello and that they will do so by preventing us from winning tomorrow because we have a Spanish manager?  Is this conspiracy purely directed at Benitez or will it also affect Arsenal (French manager), Chelsea (Israeli manager), and Man United (Scottish manager) over the remainder of the season?  I suppose we can expect Harry Redknapp and Portsmouth to be getting all the breaks now?

[OneHotRed]

Well as long as Rafa doesnt play sissoko I think we have a chance tommorow, however I dont think its going to be as easy as a lot are suggesting, either a draw or a one goal win for us would make me happy.

First thing i want to see is Masch crippling Ronaldo from the kickoff, keep him quiet and we'll win

[roberto green]

Just as long as we keep Ronaldo quiet we should win the game.

Anyway as long as we play like we did the other night against marseille we should turn them over.

I say it will be 2-0 up to about the 80th min then Ryan Babel  will score his customery goal to make it an infatic 3-0 win.

[112-1077774096]

To elaborate, I think Mascherano is a fantastic player but doesn't do enough with the ball going forward.  In terms of distribution, Alonso is a better option.  Defensively, I don't think Alonso matches the Argentine in terms of pace or tenacity in harrying ball carriers but his defensive positioning and tackling are superior (Masch opts for the risky slide tackle too often, IMO) so it's fairly close in that department.  Overall then, Alonso shades it for me and I'll be happy to have him back.

maybe if you went to a game you will see the work all the players do off the ball, obviously watching on tv you can only see what they show, sadly this is the same for me the last 5 years but thats why I try and talk about things i know about as opposed to speculating on who is the better player, they both have their plus points but the fact we have performed very well without alonso speaks volumes and shows people can stop blaming the 'blip' on his absence

At one point you were suggesting the blip was down to Pako leaving and that our recovery was due to Rafa seeing the light!  I'm waiting for the day when you stick to talking about things you know.

well i know you gave me a card based on past things and to settle a score as opposed to giving me one because i deserved one, hows that for starters bob,

the fact is your football knowledge is minimal and based on others comments, seriously bob, go to a game and then base your opinions on players based on that, actually see the work they do as opposed to following the camera and what other posters say on here, form your own opinion.

my opinion on pako has not changed, our loss of form was down to him going and the continual over rotation, so no changes there bob so i don't know where you got your ridiculous notion that i have changed my mind, but i know you have never let facts get in the way of you having a dig before so i suppose i shouldn't expect that from you know.

just a question bob, have you even ever played football at ANY competitive level?