Liverpool FC Forum

[Smeg]

Just before we go any further, are you being serious here mate? I mean it was only in the first game of the season at Villa that he won the match for us with an absolute World-Class free kick. In the second game of the season, he pinges a lovely little throgh ball into Torres which led to the goal against Chelsea.

I can understand your frustration with the way we are performing, and I haven't seen as much football as I would like but in the games I have seen, to say Gerrard has been useless is just being silly.

I've said this a few times now but it's not as simple as scapegoating one player or bemoaning the lack of another. The team is now woefully short of form and confidence and because of that, all the parts within it are now malfunctioning. Rectifying this problem takes time and patience. It brings the previos pages and pages of debate about the "R" word into sharp focus and is the precise reason why some of us advocate not fiddling around too much when you stumble upon a formula which appears to be working. The reality is of course rectifying the problem can be very difficult.

Those expecting us to suddenly start playing well are going to be disappointed in my view because thats not how it works. Even a good win won't put us back into form, it takes more than one game. It requires a run of results for confidence to grow. When it grows to the extent that even if you start the game poorly, or even go one behind but still think you will win, then you're onto something. We'll all just have to wait for that to come around though and in the meantime it's going to be a rocky road. If and when it does come round of course, some of us will be advocating doing the minimum possible to disturb the equilebrium.

Unfortunately he was...

Gerrard's , sell him.

[bigmick]

Well Roy Keane was an absolutely fantastic player, you'll get no argument there from me. He was certainly better tha Gerrard at motivating those around him as well you're quite right. Equally it's certainly fair to say that Gerrard is some way below his best at the moment and you're on the money there. It's just a slight over-reaction I think to say he's been sh!te. I'm very much of the opinion that if you really looked at it, an average game for Gerrard would be a pretty good one for most players. A below average game for him would be average for others etc etc.

Anyways mate, if you're comparing his motivational prowess to Roy Keane my suspicion is that our man will perpetually come up a bit short.

[Smeg]

Tell ya what i'll go further. Gerrard has been SH.IT. Captain my hes done nothing lately. Great player without a doubt. But when it comes to performances in the games that dont require a trophy he goes missing. Name an instance in which im proved wrong.

Just before we go any further, are you being serious here mate? I mean it was only in the first game of the season at Villa that he won the match for us with an absolute World-Class free kick. In the second game of the season, he pinges a lovely little throgh ball into Torres which led to the goal against Chelsea.

I can understand your frustration with the way we are performing, and I haven't seen as much football as I would like but in the games I have seen, to say Gerrard has been useless is just being silly.

I've said this a few times now but it's not as simple as scapegoating one player or bemoaning the lack of another. The team is now woefully short of form and confidence and because of that, all the parts within it are now malfunctioning. Rectifying this problem takes time and patience. It brings the previos pages and pages of debate about the "R" word into sharp focus and is the precise reason why some of us advocate not fiddling around too much when you stumble upon a formula which appears to be working. The reality is of course rectifying the problem can be very difficult.

Those expecting us to suddenly start playing well are going to be disappointed in my view because thats not how it works. Even a good win won't put us back into form, it takes more than one game. It requires a run of results for confidence to grow. When it grows to the extent that even if you start the game poorly, or even go one behind but still think you will win, then you're onto something. We'll all just have to wait for that to come around though and in the meantime it's going to be a rocky road. If and when it does come round of course, some of us will be advocating doing the minimum possible to disturb the equilebrium.

Im not bemoaning one player. What im doing is highlighting the fact that Gerrard is our captain and should be one of the front runners in ensuring our team gets the result. I hate to say it but Roy Keane had more influence in all games he played in then what our captain has.

Oh boo hoo, Roy Keane had more influence than our captain. How about Roy Keane's probably one of the best ever players in his position lad...

Thats like saying Maradonna done more than Gerrard, that means Gerrard must be ...

[Smeg]

Well Roy Keane was an absolutely fantastic player, you'll get no argument there from me. He was certainly better tha Gerrard at motivating those around him as well you're quite right. Equally it's certainly fair to say that Gerrard is some way below his best at the moment and you're on the money there. It's just a slight over-reaction I think to say he's been sh!te. I'm very much of the opinion that if you really looked at it, an average game for Gerrard would be a pretty good one for most players. A below average game for him would be average for others etc etc.

Anyways mate, if you're comparing his motivational prowess to Roy Keane my suspicion is that our man will perpetually come up a bit short.

No Mick, what the **** said... and lets make no mistake, and put no sugar on this... is... and I quote...

Tell ya what i'll go further. Gerrard has been SH.IT. Captain my

Thats what he said...

Rediculous statement which shows you up completely.

[maguskwt]

Ok guys... let's calm down a bit... we played terrible... but wer'e not out of the competition yet...I always believe that in any competition the key is to peak at the right time... hopefully we can qualify the grp stage (which is still very possible) and peak at the right time...

and like bigmick said if we win in the league this weekend it's not too bad isn't it?

same goes for our league form as well... if this is a blip then I'd rather have it now than when it is more crucial...

[zirgoz]

I think defeat will do Liverpool good, because its time they wake up! the players should not be sitting on their laurels just because of their pedigree label in Europe. Two terrible games in Europe in a row is not acceptable. Down to rotation! Down to rotation! Down to rotation!

[RedRoots]

Reina - Not a chance with the goal, best passer in team tonight says it all.
Finnan - Looked his usual self at times and lost track of Zenden at others.
Carragher - Like so many not his usual self tonight.
Hyypia - Steady performance but did struggle with their front man's pace.
Aurelio -
Benayoun - Didn't do much at all, all night.
Gerrard - Maybe the only player with a valid excuse for a poor performance. Still poor though.
Sissoko - Looked like a pub team player (a poor one at that).
Leto - Just not ready yet for top level footy.
Crouch - Not doing much to make Rafa play him more often.
Torres - Had nothing to feed off of all night. Unlucky not to score in dying moments.

Subs:
Riise - BIG improvement over Leto.
Voronin - Didn't really do anything when he came on.
Kuyt - His workrate may have been more fruitful tonight than in recent league performances.

Benitez - Got it all wrong tonight. We all agree that this rotation shite MUST STOP NOW!!!!!!

I think it's funny how people say torres had nothing to feed off  but then criticise Crouch, Crouch was one of the only players who stood out for me tonight, in fairness neither striker can be blamed for tonights performance but Crouch had a much better game than Torres in my eyes.

[account deleted by request]

I have just finished watching part of the game again. I can't believe how deep Hyypia played at times, it looked like he was defending a corner rather than open play at times. Hyypia has never been quick but has always held his line, positionally hes usually good. Every time OM got the ball he was looking to retreat rather than hold a defensive line. I am pretty sure it was a tactical plan to negate the pace of Cisse, did no one mention he wasn't playing first half! Maybe the way the porto defender went passed Hyypia a couple of weeks ago preyed on more than one or two minds before this match.

I think our plan was to start the game at a high tempo, with quick slick passing. It didn't work! It wasn't just the number of wayward balls, but the over and under hit passes as well.

The first 5 mins I think OM were terrified and played just as badly as we did, once they realised how bad we were, their game improved while ours didn't.

Rafa needs to send a team out against Spurs prepared to fight, run till they drop and pass to a team mate. The problem he has now is if he drops half the team as they deserve, no one will notice as everyone will just think its rotation as usual.

[112-1077774096]

well i think the last few weeks can put one thing to bed, rotation does not work.

i know people will blame the past few weeks on many things, trying to shift the blame from rotation, but the fact is that if rotation worked it would be working now, but the last few weeks has shown us players disinterested, players looking unfamiliar with one another, players concerned about whether they will get picked again, players scared to express themselves, players lying and saying they are happy with the situation, we have seen ridiculous team selections, we have seen 22 million quids worth of talent sat on the bench so he is fit next april for all the big games we will have at that time (although quite what these big games will be god only knows, maybe the big games are battles for 4th spot again).

all of these faults lie at rafas door, he picks the team, he picks the tactics, he make the changes during games when its not going right (showing how wrong he got it to start with), and even then some of his substitutions are mind boggling.

i pointed out in the match thread (that others are now starting to mention) that I have to question just who was the tactical genius in the relationship, rafa or pako, because rafa looks lost without him.

just for once i want rafa to swallow his pride and say "i got it wrong", I want him to admit he tactics do no not work every game, I want him to show us this attacking football he has promised us rather than defending, I want to see exactly what we can do when the shackles are of instead of him sh*tting himself. i want to see him trying to win games rather than trying to not lose games.

i want all this sooner rather than later, before G&H go knocking on maureens door and we lose a manager who has great potential when he drops his stubborness and admit he isn't the tactical genius some of you think he is. we have so much talent in our team it's frightening, but the oppo must love it when we just try ad counterattack leading to stalemates, we should be battering these teams from the first minute to the last, unless of course we are conserving our energy for that battle for 4th spot in may

[account deleted by request]

I don't think you can blame everything on Rafa and rotation mate, Rafa got his team selection and tactics wrong... fair enough. He didn't tell the players to go out and play like blind men. You can't blame Rafa when a player can't pass a ball five yards. Even rotation can't account for some of the sloppy play we saw last night.

[The_Rock]

Uefa cup...here we come

Well....lets look at the positives....

This is a wake up call.....we have been lucky against pompey, porto and wigan. We played sh1t and should have those games....but we didn't and rafa carried on as if nothing was wrong.

Well we have lost our 1st game and now hope reality hits rafa.  He has to learn not to mess with the team...

1)Leto has hardly featured in the league and all of a sudden he is in the starting line-up ?

2)Gerrard and sissoko lack the discipline to play as a CM midfield pairing.... How the f**k does he then play them in a champions league ?

3)He has to stop under-estimating teams.. And play the strongest team whenever possible. Maybe our squad is not as strong as he thinks....So just cut out with the rotation sh1t. The team has no cohesion at all...

[The_Rock]

well i think the last few weeks can put one thing to bed, rotation does not work.

i know people will blame the past few weeks on many things, trying to shift the blame from rotation, but the fact is that if rotation worked it would be working now, but the last few weeks has shown us players disinterested, players looking unfamiliar with one another, players concerned about whether they will get picked again, players scared to express themselves, players lying and saying they are happy with the situation, we have seen ridiculous team selections, we have seen 22 million quids worth of talent sat on the bench so he is fit next april for all the big games we will have at that time (although quite what these big games will be god only knows, maybe the big games are battles for 4th spot again).

all of these faults lie at rafas door, he picks the team, he picks the tactics, he make the changes during games when its not going right (showing how wrong he got it to start with), and even then some of his substitutions are mind boggling.

i pointed out in the match thread (that others are now starting to mention) that I have to question just who was the tactical genius in the relationship, rafa or pako, because rafa looks lost without him.

just for once i want rafa to swallow his pride and say "i got it wrong", I want him to admit he tactics do no not work every game, I want him to show us this attacking football he has promised us rather than defending, I want to see exactly what we can do when the shackles are of instead of him sh*tting himself. i want to see him trying to win games rather than trying to not lose games.

i want all this sooner rather than later, before G&H go knocking on maureens door and we lose a manager who has great potential when he drops his stubborness and admit he isn't the tactical genius some of you think he is. we have so much talent in our team it's frightening, but the oppo must love it when we just try ad counterattack leading to stalemates, we should be battering these teams from the first minute to the last, unless of course we are conserving our energy for that battle for 4th spot in may

Agree with you on the pako comment.... The derby game was just a few days after his departure so we have to bypass it...but almost all the games since then....the team looks to be in a bad shape.

What happen to closing down players..?
What happen to high tempo game which rafa is well known for ?

And the players are looking pi$$ tired even at this early stage.... What happen to their fitness ?

And rafa looks like he does even bother about it. Contrast this to red-nose reaction when the manure reserves lost to coventry...

I thought we will do well in champions league...so was willing to forgo the league performance...and now the team comes up with this....Looks like i have to bring down my expectation for this season....


BTW....this is beginning to mirror houllier's "last but one" season.... More and more fans are getting fed-up with rafa (just go to RAWK.....they are traditionally very conservative with their views on rafa....but he is getting bashed there).

Sort it out rafa....Don't act as if everything is all-right. Mourinho got sacked for doing a better job than u...

[Smeg]

well i think the last few weeks can put one thing to bed, rotation does not work.

i know people will blame the past few weeks on many things, trying to shift the blame from rotation, but the fact is that if rotation worked it would be working now, but the last few weeks has shown us players disinterested, players looking unfamiliar with one another, players concerned about whether they will get picked again, players scared to express themselves, players lying and saying they are happy with the situation, we have seen ridiculous team selections, we have seen 22 million quids worth of talent sat on the bench so he is fit next april for all the big games we will have at that time (although quite what these big games will be god only knows, maybe the big games are battles for 4th spot again).

all of these faults lie at rafas door, he picks the team, he picks the tactics, he make the changes during games when its not going right (showing how wrong he got it to start with), and even then some of his substitutions are mind boggling.

i pointed out in the match thread (that others are now starting to mention) that I have to question just who was the tactical genius in the relationship, rafa or pako, because rafa looks lost without him.

just for once i want rafa to swallow his pride and say "i got it wrong", I want him to admit he tactics do no not work every game, I want him to show us this attacking football he has promised us rather than defending, I want to see exactly what we can do when the shackles are of instead of him sh*tting himself. i want to see him trying to win games rather than trying to not lose games.

i want all this sooner rather than later, before G&H go knocking on maureens door and we lose a manager who has great potential when he drops his stubborness and admit he isn't the tactical genius some of you think he is. we have so much talent in our team it's frightening, but the oppo must love it when we just try ad counterattack leading to stalemates, we should be battering these teams from the first minute to the last, unless of course we are conserving our energy for that battle for 4th spot in may

Not only is that harsh but I feel alot of it is knee jerk.

Rafa tonight, got his tactics wrong. But the players are as much to blame for tonights inept performance as the manager. His team selection "could have been better" however, if I'm honest, we're talking Kuyt, Riise and Mascherano instead of Momo, Leto (who is a joke) and Crouch.

The big names were in there, Gerrard and Torres. What annoyed me most tonight wasn't the in ability to pass a ball, but the lack of pressure on the ball. I could have played for Marseille tonight and not looked out of place Liverpool were that bad. The time on the ball each player had was rediculous. Carragher and Hyypia were far to deep all game and none of the players had the to say, right, we'll push up another 15/20 yards.

No Marseille player was once rushed into playing pass and it cost us. The whole team sat far to deep, and I can't be arsed with the "Hyypia" debate, he's played in a high line many a time and tonight would have been just another occassion, and lets face is, Daniel Agger isn't exactly quick either.

The team as a whole was to deep, every problem we encountered was because of this. Benitez got the tactics wrong and the players should have realised what was going on and corrected it.

What I do find rather strange is a comment The Rock has just made regarding this being similar to Houllier's reign, it was about this time it went Tits up for Gerard and it was also about this time Patrice Bergues left aswell if I'm not mistaken?

There are alot of parralells. However, this team is in good shape. Its a case of signing maybe another 3-4 players to complete the squad and take us to a level where most teams won't be able to compete.

[112-1077774096]

ok a couple of you have mentioned that rafa can not be blamed when a player can not pass the ball etc. ok admittedly guys earning this amount of money should be able to perform these tasks simply, i agree with that, but i also think the manager has to take some responsibility for this because the players are not being allowed to settle into any sort of rhythm, week to week they have different players around them (assuming they get selected themselves week to week), different players do different things, they take up different positions. you need to know who you are playing with week to week in my opinion, not find out an hour before kick off that half the team from the last game will be missing and you are just expected to adjust.

sorry guys, i know some of you think he is the messiah but in my opinion rafa isn't everything we all thought he was, he does make mistakes, he is only human, the sad think is that he doesn't learn from his mistakes, he stubbornly persists in the hope that he will be proved right, and thats not the way to do, houllier did it before him, he wouldn't accept he was wrong and it cost him his job, rafa will go the same way.

no longer does he have david moores in charge, a man notorious for giving the manager chances, we now have two hard headed yanks who want a return and if they speak to 'football people' (and we all know the consensus from football people, ex players etc) and get feedback that this type of system will not work in england, then they will show him the door quicker than they sing the star spangled banner.

if rafa gets forced out he will only have himself to blame (as he takes up residence at real madrid, his real love).

one think no one has mentioned yet and i perish at the thought, but what if the players are trying to force him out or trying to force him into changing his system by putting in inept performances, its not beyond the realms of possibility

[Ciggy]

Simce Aggers been injured we have been playing defensive shite football protecting Sammi, and no play maker in the team since Alonso has been injured the midfield has a gapping big hole.

If I am honest I was more annoyed with the two draws against Portsmouth and Brum, but now we face an uphill battle in the CL I worry players will be rested even more now