Liverpool FC Forum

[burjennio]

Dutchsky Posted on Oct. 30 2007,13:22
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Quote (puroresu @ Oct. 30 2007,12:49)
Quote (Leonmc0708 @ Oct. 30 2007,12:24)

WE could have held out for a win but do you think we were better over 90 mins?



Talented offensive players like Babel are sacrificed for the less gifted but harder working rubbish like a Kuyt or a Vorinin.

Let me tell you Kuyt is more worth to a team then Babel.
Babel is hyped, L'pool bought a hyped player. His stats are poor. His technique is also rather poor; not very diverse.

Ajax already wanted to sell him (for way less). But then L'pool did an immense bid on him. The brand Ajax is still a good brand international. Meaning people won't look too critical at players coming from Ajax. But the days of Bergkamp, Cruyff, Van Basten etc are long gone. That kind of quality is not available at the moment (at Ajax).

When we signed Babel a few Ajax fans came on here and said similar things about hype and him being overated and such, but from what ive seen the lad has the tools to be a great player, skill , strength and pace and when you consider the money fergie spent on his 2 "wonderkids" nani and anderson, i wouldnt say the price was inflated

If been one of Dirk Kuyts biggest supporters but he honestly hasn't progressed this season the way I hoped he would, his touch is still poor, he does spend to much time tracking back (although we all continually praise his workrate) and he just doesn't look at the moment like he could ever be clinical in the Premier League as he was in Holland, sadly I think we're all in agreement now that he's not a player who fits into a team with expectations of winning the championship

[Leonmc0708]

However after 4 seasons I now accept that the football I expect to see from a liverpool side will never happen under rafa. 

What kind of football do you want to see ?

a mentality of approaching each game with the intention to score goals.  Attacking formations, creative freedom, and allowing the most gifted players to express themselves.  I worry Babel's development will stagnate at liverpool just cos it seems to me this type of players are so pre-occupied with doing other things rather than being allowed to just play.  I dont want to see strikers playing in midfield cos one of there attributes is running all day long chasing anything that moves.

A more balanced game where we actually keep the ball and string passes together.  I see very little of the simple things which allow u to beat defenders.  Those simple things being triangle's 1 and 2 touch passing.  Not everything will come off but to see some genuine flair and risk taking would be nice.

I know I sound like I want perfection and its probably hard on the current management considering the achievements but at the moment I am just frustrated with what is happening on the pitch.  I dont think its just down to form as the manager has always been more sided to the defensive side of things.

In the majority of games we have the better players than the opposition.  Lets allow this players to use there better talents and show us what they can do instead of being so worried about what the opposition can do.

Yer Wha ?

I wouldnt even bother replying, i think he has demonstrated for months that he is not even a liverpool supporter no matter what he says.
It shines through almost every post, anti England and often anti Liverpool.

Arsenal this and that, so what they play great football.
We have finished above them 2 seasons in a row and won trophies recently.
Yes its a difficult time but all this Arsenal w@nkfest is doing my head right in.

On a seperate note Wilhelmsson, the first swede to be obsessed with rugby union, do us a favour and go support Saracens or another rugby union side...your constant references to rugby are bizarre and so f'kin irritating. (by the way sorry for swearing, disgusting behaviour that is, its just that i dont have a very good vocabulary)

too late. 

Great post by the way.

[puroresu]

However after 4 seasons I now accept that the football I expect to see from a liverpool side will never happen under rafa. 

What kind of football do you want to see ?

a mentality of approaching each game with the intention to score goals.  Attacking formations, creative freedom, and allowing the most gifted players to express themselves.  I worry Babel's development will stagnate at liverpool just cos it seems to me this type of players are so pre-occupied with doing other things rather than being allowed to just play.  I dont want to see strikers playing in midfield cos one of there attributes is running all day long chasing anything that moves.

A more balanced game where we actually keep the ball and string passes together.  I see very little of the simple things which allow u to beat defenders.  Those simple things being triangle's 1 and 2 touch passing.  Not everything will come off but to see some genuine flair and risk taking would be nice.

I know I sound like I want perfection and its probably hard on the current management considering the achievements but at the moment I am just frustrated with what is happening on the pitch.  I dont think its just down to form as the manager has always been more sided to the defensive side of things.

In the majority of games we have the better players than the opposition.  Lets allow this players to use there better talents and show us what they can do instead of being so worried about what the opposition can do.

Yer Wha ?

I wouldnt even bother replying, i think he has demonstrated for months that he is not even a liverpool supporter no matter what he says.
It shines through almost every post, anti England and often anti Liverpool.

Arsenal this and that, so what they play great football.
We have finished above them 2 seasons in a row and won trophies recently.
Yes its a difficult time but all this Arsenal w@nkfest is doing my head right in.

On a seperate note Wilhelmsson, the first swede to be obsessed with rugby union, do us a favour and go support Saracens or another rugby union side...your constant references to rugby are bizarre and so f'kin irritating. (by the way sorry for swearing, disgusting behaviour that is, its just that i dont have a very good vocabulary)

stuggling to accept that we are lightyears behind and arsenal and man utd in a pure footballing sense.  Face up to it I did months ago.

[heimdall]

However after 4 seasons I now accept that the football I expect to see from a liverpool side will never happen under rafa. 

What kind of football do you want to see ?

a mentality of approaching each game with the intention to score goals.  Attacking formations, creative freedom, and allowing the most gifted players to express themselves.  I worry Babel's development will stagnate at liverpool just cos it seems to me this type of players are so pre-occupied with doing other things rather than being allowed to just play.  I dont want to see strikers playing in midfield cos one of there attributes is running all day long chasing anything that moves.

A more balanced game where we actually keep the ball and string passes together.  I see very little of the simple things which allow u to beat defenders.  Those simple things being triangle's 1 and 2 touch passing.  Not everything will come off but to see some genuine flair and risk taking would be nice.

I know I sound like I want perfection and its probably hard on the current management considering the achievements but at the moment I am just frustrated with what is happening on the pitch.  I dont think its just down to form as the manager has always been more sided to the defensive side of things.

In the majority of games we have the better players than the opposition.  Lets allow this players to use there better talents and show us what they can do instead of being so worried about what the opposition can do.

Yer Wha ?

I wouldnt even bother replying, i think he has demonstrated for months that he is not even a liverpool supporter no matter what he says.
It shines through almost every post, anti England and often anti Liverpool.

Arsenal this and that, so what they play great football.
We have finished above them 2 seasons in a row and won trophies recently.
Yes its a difficult time but all this Arsenal w@nkfest is doing my head right in.

On a seperate note Wilhelmsson, the first swede to be obsessed with rugby union, do us a favour and go support Saracens or another rugby union side...your constant references to rugby are bizarre and so f'kin irritating. (by the way sorry for swearing, disgusting behaviour that is, its just that i dont have a very good vocabulary)

Here's a word for you, xenophobe, someone who dislikes foreginers. Weird how you like Rafa and the players seeing as so few of them are Eng-er-lish, I'm fairly certain that the bulk of our teamdon't support England
Grow up asswipe, EVERYBODY on this forum is totally pro Liverpool but not everybody is pro England, I'd rather support a team with a chance of qualifying for the EURO2008   

Stop all this, oh he dared to criticise the team, burn him as a heretic sh1t, it is very immature and demonstrates a rather feeble mind.

[Ace Ventura]

Heimdall, i have criticised Rafa and the players alot recently, they have been p!ss poor and the managers decisions at times i have disagreed with. But after a far better performance IMHO against an Arsenal side that were flying i think alot of the players and definately the manager deserve credit. Some people seem obsessed with other teams and the way they play, thats there perogative but its getting more than a little tedious to hear them constantly belittling our players our manager while bigging up another team.
Credit where credits due, Arsene has done a great job so far this season, no harm in admiring that but to constantly use it as a stick to beat Rafa and our players with when we showed obvious signs of improvement is moaning for moaning sake.

I am not anti anything...you dont have a clue what i am talking about, i was referring to previous threads that i have had disagreements with puroresu regarding anything english...which he has showed his obvious dislike for often in the past, the fact that he claims to support an english team to me is somewhat ironic but there you go.

If any fan expected after the way Liverpool and Arsenal have been playing recently for us to go toe to toe with them in an open game then they are absolutley deluded.
I thought we played the way we needed to get a result and enjoyed seeing the determination of Carragher Mascherano Gerrard and co more than Arsenals impressive passing but thats just the way i am.
Things my players do however little impress me more than what other teams do, call it biased, i call it supporting my team.

[heimdall]

Heimdall, i have criticised Rafa and the players alot recently, they have been p!ss poor and the managers decisions at times i have disagreed with. But after a far better performance IMHO against an Arsenal side that were flying i think alot of the players and definately the manager deserve credit. Some people seem obsessed with other teams and the way they play, thats there perogative but its getting more than a little tedious to hear them constantly belittling our players our manager while bigging up another team.
Credit where credits due, Arsene has done a great job so far this season, no harm in admiring that but to constantly use it as a stick to beat Rafa and our players with when we showed obvious signs of improvement is moaning for moaning sake.

I am not anti anything...you dont have a clue what i am talking about, i was referring to previous threads that i have had disagreements with puroresu regarding anything english...which he has showed his obvious dislike for often in the past, the fact that he claims to support an english team to me is somewhat ironic but there you go.

If any fan expected after the way Liverpool and Arsenal have been playing recently for us to go toe to toe with them in an open game then they are absolutley deluded.
I thought we played the way we needed to get a result and enjoyed seeing the determination of Carragher Mascherano Gerrard and co more than Arsenals impressive passing but thats just the way i am.
Things my players do however little impress me more than what other teams do, call it biased, i call it supporting my team.

yes ok, but you have to appreciate how frustrated people are feeling, especially after the match on Sunday, when the gulf in terms of attacking football was immense.
Having said that at the start of the season we were playing good flowing football and hence my initial optimism but where has that style of play gone now, we play ugly unimaginative football and not only against Arsenal, and who's to blame for that, it has to be Rafa. I know he's unlucky with injuries but for God's sake start playing some youngsters instead of the awful Kuyt and Voronin.

[Ace Ventura]

The reasons for picking them two was due to there workrate, to stifle the game and stop Arsenal playing. We then could hit them on the counter attack and cause them problems.
He would probably have replaced both of them at some stage in the game for Benayoun and Babel if Torres Alonso and Mascherano hadnt got injured, it severley hampered his options.
The game plan was working despite Arsenals breathtaking free flowing football (not my words btw), we were soaking up the pressure, probably a little too much at times but went in at half time 1-0 up and Almunia had saved another couple of efforts from Gerrard.
Injuries did change the game and Arsenal did deserve there point in the end, but we were by no means played of the park, Crouch almost scored with a couple of great efforts and Gerrard almost got in at the end, possesion and pretty passing is easy on the eye but not the be all and end all.

[jedwards]

On Sunday display, it does indicate how much LFC's football has declined, and Aresnal's football has hugely improved, now they are playing the kind of football of old Liverpool in 80's and early 90's, with total possession, backed up by smiple passing and movement, all of this is now gone out of the present LFC's team, under the management of Holliuer and Benitez, who both had adopted negative tactical methods using long ball football strategies and paying the right players that they will suite their methods. On Sunday Liverpool present team could not put three passes together, most of the played like headless chickens as the like of Voronin and Kuyt, who both do not deserve to be first choice players but only in the book of Benitez the genius, those two players won't even get into Chelsea, United, Aresnal reserves, but to be ahead of Bable, Crouch, and Benayoun, it is a total disgrace. Those two front players did not manage one shoot on goal between them, and when Crouch was interduced, made a big different up front, and he was unlucky not to score, where is the footballing common sense on keeping a player like Crouch and Bable on the bench while those two idiots Voronin and Kuyt are first choice and ahead of them, I never come across this kind of team selection throught my life as a FLC fan, The LFC teams of the old, are always playing to their strength, but not now, because the standard had lowered so much under Holliuer and Benitez.

The match had showed the different in class between the two teams, and espacially Aresnal new team which it had taken A. Wanger only 18 months to produce a top wining team, and Benitez had been in charge almost 3 years or more, and he had failed to produce a team that does not get 20% near Aresnal.

I think LFC is in decline, with new owners who do not care about the footballing sense, but only care on how to make money for themselves, and put the club in huge debts, after borrowing so much money against the LFC, so they will back Benitez all the way, because that is not main concern, but just on how to make more money from the LFC!!!!.

We were very luck not to lose on Sunday, where Aresnal showed they can click into top gear to over come an average mid.table team like Liverpool, but they did not need to use their top gear then. I am soory to see the steady decline in our football over the passed two season, very average and poor displays all of last season, and this season does not like to be any different, just waste a lot of club money on below average players likes, Voronin, Kuyt, Leto, etc, so many more I am sure!!!!.

[kobashi]

Heimdall, i have criticised Rafa and the players alot recently, they have been p!ss poor and the managers decisions at times i have disagreed with. But after a far better performance IMHO against an Arsenal side that were flying i think alot of the players and definately the manager deserve credit. Some people seem obsessed with other teams and the way they play, thats there perogative but its getting more than a little tedious to hear them constantly belittling our players our manager while bigging up another team.
Credit where credits due, Arsene has done a great job so far this season, no harm in admiring that but to constantly use it as a stick to beat Rafa and our players with when we showed obvious signs of improvement is moaning for moaning sake.

I am not anti anything...you dont have a clue what i am talking about, i was referring to previous threads that i have had disagreements with puroresu regarding anything english...which he has showed his obvious dislike for often in the past, the fact that he claims to support an english team to me is somewhat ironic but there you go.

If any fan expected after the way Liverpool and Arsenal have been playing recently for us to go toe to toe with them in an open game then they are absolutley deluded.
I thought we played the way we needed to get a result and enjoyed seeing the determination of Carragher Mascherano Gerrard and co more than Arsenals impressive passing but thats just the way i am.
Things my players do however little impress me more than what other teams do, call it biased, i call it supporting my team.

yes ok, but you have to appreciate how frustrated people are feeling, especially after the match on Sunday, when the gulf in terms of attacking football was immense.
Having said that at the start of the season we were playing good flowing football and hence my initial optimism but where has that style of play gone now, we play ugly unimaginative football and not only against Arsenal, and who's to blame for that, it has to be Rafa. I know he's unlucky with injuries but for God's sake start playing some youngsters instead of the awful Kuyt and Voronin.

that is it exactly.  some of us watch arsenal play and wonder why there passing and movement looks way better than ours.  you can not blame livepool fans for getting frustrated at this.  anyone who sez they wouldnt wanna play like arsenal do is lying.

[burjennio]

jedwards Posted on Oct. 30 2007,14:47
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On Sunday display, it does indicate how much LFC's football has declined, and Aresnal's football has hugely improved, now they are playing the kind of football of old Liverpool in 80's and early 90's, with total possession, backed up by smiple passing and movement, all of this is now gone out of the present LFC's team, under the management of Holliuer and Benitez, who both had adopted negative tactical methods using long ball football strategies and paying the right players that they will suite their methods. On Sunday Liverpool present team could not put three passes together, most of the played like headless chickens as the like of Voronin and Kuyt, who both do not deserve to be first choice players but only in the book of Benitez the genius, those two players won't even get into Chelsea, United, Aresnal reserves, but to be ahead of Bable, Crouch, and Benayoun, it is a total disgrace. Those two front players did not manage one shoot on goal between them, and when Crouch was interduced, made a big different up front, and he was unlucky not to score, where is the footballing common sense on keeping a player like Crouch and Bable on the bench while those two idiots Voronin and Kuyt are first choice and ahead of them, I never come across this kind of team selection throught my life as a FLC fan, The LFC teams of the old, are always playing to their strength, but not now, because the standard had lowered so much under Holliuer and Benitez.

The match had showed the different in class between the two teams, and espacially Aresnal new team which it had taken A. Wanger only 18 months to produce a top wining team, and Benitez had been in charge almost 3 years or more, and he had failed to produce a team that does not get 20% near Aresnal.

I think LFC is in decline, with new owners who do not care about the footballing sense, but only care on how to make money for themselves, and put the club in huge debts, after borrowing so much money against the LFC, so they will back Benitez all the way, because that is not main concern, but just on how to make more money from the LFC!!!!.

We were very luck not to lose on Sunday, where Aresnal showed they can click into top gear to over come an average mid.table team like Liverpool, but they did not need to use their top gear then. I am soory to see the steady decline in our football over the passed two season, very average and poor displays all of last season, and this season does not like to be any different, just waste a lot of club money on below average players likes, Voronin, Kuyt, Leto, etc, so many more I am sure!!!!.

Is there a 2 for 1 sale on Wind Up Merchants this week? Lets dissect your crazy rant and show what pessimistic numpty you actually are

The debts are to bulid a new stadium, which will in turn will pay for itself (the emirates stadium is a good example of this)

Mid table sides, don't qualify for the Champions League, let alone get to 2 finals in 3 years

I took Wenger alot longer than 18  months to build the current side, Fabragas signed for Arsenal when he was 16 because of Spanish Law prohibiting him signing a professional contract with Barca, Van Persie was signed 4 seasons ago, Toure at least 6 seasons

The Americans are shrewd business men and they invested the money, why should they not be entitled to make a profit? They certainly wouldnt back Rafa if they felt he was underperforming -  its not good business

Leto played about 60mins of football, in what was admittedly one of the top 3 worst Liverpool european performances
I can remember, but that makes him a waste of money? Dont make me laugh

Anything else?

Should we count up all the newbie posts of  the last 4 weeks and see if there are any
POSITIVE ones?

[Ace Ventura]

that is it exactly.  some of us watch arsenal play and wonder why there passing in movement looks way better than ours.  you can not blame livepool fans for getting frustrated at this.  anyone who sez they wouldnt wanna play like arsenal do is lying.

I if its me your referring to said i preferred seeing the blood sweat and effort from our lads to the passing of Arsenal in that game.
It made it a great spectacle, if we played football like Arsenal do then yes i would like it and enjoy watching it. But i also really enjoyed watching the effort and determination of our players.

[Leonmc0708]

but for God's sake start playing some youngsters instead of the awful Kuyt and Voronin.

And if he did and the result was the same you and lots of others would castigate him for this.

As I have said, its easy to be a pundit after the event and say that the manager should have done the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he did do and make out like that would work. Thats MArk Lawrensons favourite style of commentary.

[Scottbot]

I if its me your referring to said i preferred seeing the blood sweat and effort from our lads to the passing of Arsenal in that game.
It made it a great spectacle, if we played football like Arsenal do then yes i would like it and enjoy watching it. But i also really enjoyed watching the effort and determination of our players.

I'm with that 100%. It's hard to argue with any of the criticism thrown at the manager and the players following the soppy display in Istanbul last week but i'm baffled at some of the criticism coming  at the players/manager after the Arsenal game. Yes, the team has been playing lousy just recently BUT how can you not admire, respect or APPRECIATE the effort, guts and detemination that went into securing (and nearly winning) the game on Sunday? Playing attractive, pretty, free-flowing football isn't like turning a tap on or off. It takes time for a team to play itself into form and when confidence is low (as it clearly is at the moment) it takes blood, guts and hard-work to put it right. As for playing the sort of football they see at Arsenal week-in week-out, will we ever see it at Liverpool under Benitez? Not likely, then we've known that from the start, it isn't and never has been Benitez's way. And how easy do you people think it is to coach a team to play the way Arsenal do? How many teams in world football can turn it on like Arsenal? One? Two? Three maybe? Like we could just go out, get a new manager and tell him 'we wanna play like that, make it so'. Pull the other one. There's no doubt the manager deserves some criticism in recent weeks but so many posters on here talk like they're reading from a gospel sheet when they are in fact talking horse s..h..i....t. As for the grief Voronin and Kuyt are getting (they seem to be numero 1 and 2 scapegoats at the moment) how can anyone slate those two and in the same sentence hold up Babel as some sort of saviour or obvious replacement? He's hardly set the world on fire so far has he? In fact he's done very little, no more or less than the other two lads i'd say. Absolutely no perspective on here. Crazy thing is, if we'd won that Champ League final in May instead of losing we'd be European Champions and the same people screaming blue murder for our progress (or lack of) in this year's competition would be saying 'don't worry lads we won it last year but we're only 6 points off the top with a game in hand in the league'. The climate on here would be completely different i'll bet. What a difference one game can make.

[Leonmc0708]

As for the grief Voronin and Kuyt are getting (they seem to be numero 1 and 2 scapegoats at the moment) how can anyone slate those two and in the same sentence hold up Babel as some sort of saviour or obvious replacement? He's hardly set the world on fire so far has he? In fact he's done very little, no more or less than the other two lads i'd say.

Thats exactly the kind of pi.ss poor argument that makes people on here who ALWAYS claim to know what Rafa should have done dbefore during and after EVERY match laughable.

Anyone who wants to put up their managerial achievements and prove me wrong but I dare say Rafa might be better qualified.

[112-1077774096]

that is it exactly.  some of us watch arsenal play and wonder why there passing in movement looks way better than ours.  you can not blame livepool fans for getting frustrated at this.  anyone who sez they wouldnt wanna play like arsenal do is lying.

I if its me your referring to said i preferred seeing the blood sweat and effort from our lads to the passing of Arsenal in that game.
It made it a great spectacle, if we played football like Arsenal do then yes i would like it and enjoy watching it. But i also really enjoyed watching the effort and determination of our players.

mate if you just want to watch effort an determination go and watch rugby league or a division 2 side, you will see plenty. however if you want to watch attractive football (coupled with effort) watch arsenal, they do both mate, to suggest that a team can not play attractive football and shed blood and sweat is wrong.

I can't believe now people are happy that we are just a team that put lots of effort in for one game, we may as well sell all our expensive players, make momo captain and spend a couple of million on a few cloggers who can run around all day, then you will be happy watching all the effort