Liverpool FC Forum

[DrPepe]

heskey a waste?    easy to say in hindsight

i'm not saying he was/is a world class player but his first season or so with us was fantastic , winning a lot of trophies

Given the position we were in at the time (and are in now, tbh) it's understandable that the ~10m was spent on an established professional than risked on a foreign youngster that could've come  to nowt 

It's easier to take risks on youngsters when you can afford to write off 10s of millions. We simply couldn't and can't do that.

[tubby]

Hit the nail on the head. Until we are able to spend like that we are always going to hit and miss with youngsters unless we get really lucky.

[Bad Bob]

Just to play devil's advocate, aren't we indulging in a little over-valuing of our competitors' youngsters and under-valuing of our own here?  I've never been a Babel's biggest fan (a Babelian I am most certainly not ) but I'll acknowledge he's come up with important contributions on several occasions over the last couple of years, as has Lucas.  Are they really worse players than Nani or Anderson (neither of whom have really pulled up trees for the Mancs and spend a lot of time on the bench too), or Diaby (or Abu Diabolical, as some Gooners apparently call him), Denilson or Song?  As for Walcott, I rate him highly because the kid has bags of pace and skill but, in terms of what he's actually achieved with Arsenal, is he really streets ahead of Babel?  Sometimes, I just wonder if we fall into the 'grass is always greener' trap when comparing our squad players and reserves to those of our rivals.

With that said, of course, Mick is absolutely right in pointing out that not one youngster from the ressies/youth sides has yet to push through into the first team squad on a consistent basis under Rafa.  Insua is knocking at the door now but he's still not a permanent fixture in the squad and Rafa's almost been here five years.  That is a definite talking point, I'm just not sure all the comparing we do with the rivals is shedding light on the matter as opposed to muddying the waters.

[Owzat]

Ok maybe not an outright case of couldnt afford. But due to us spending poorly in the past we are then later faced with the 'cant afford' senario when we do need to spend a bit more than normal. Even with the add ons its still 12 mil, doesnt make a difference as he is a quality player who will no doubt make the number of appearances or score goals required to meet those criteria. It's too easy to look in hindsight 'had we not bought this player'.

Depends how much Sporting wanted for Ronaldo when we were interested. I recall reading about our interest and I think it was reported at £6m which is not a huge gamble by any stretch, even in those days.

You're absolutely right about hindsight, but the Ronaldo situation sounds like a case of blindness over foresight. Maybe fergie learned from that, better to buy and loan back than risk not buying.

heskey a waste?    easy to say in hindsight

i'm not saying he was/is a world class player but his first season or so with us was fantastic , winning a lot of trophies

I would have said it at the time, he was never in 11 millions years worth £11m. The only reason he had a good season in 2001 was because we played so many games and a lot in lesser cups like the League Cup and UEFA Cup. Only ONCE has he scored 14 league goals in a season, we paid £11m for him when his best was 10 - and £11m was comparitively a lot in those days. It isn't the benefit of hindsight, it's simply the benefit of unimpaired sight, plain and simple. The problem is a lot of people are wrapped up in his type of striker, 110 league goals in 466 apps sums him up. villa bought him and I bet they're regretting it.

[DrPepe]

Ok maybe not an outright case of couldnt afford. But due to us spending poorly in the past we are then later faced with the 'cant afford' senario when we do need to spend a bit more than normal. Even with the add ons its still 12 mil, doesnt make a difference as he is a quality player who will no doubt make the number of appearances or score goals required to meet those criteria. It's too easy to look in hindsight 'had we not bought this player'.

Depends how much Sporting wanted for Ronaldo when we were interested. I recall reading about our interest and I think it was reported at £6m which is not a huge gamble by any stretch, even in those days.

You're absolutely right about hindsight, but the Ronaldo situation sounds like a case of blindness over foresight. Maybe fergie learned from that, better to buy and loan back than risk not buying.

heskey a waste?    easy to say in hindsight

i'm not saying he was/is a world class player but his first season or so with us was fantastic , winning a lot of trophies

I would have said it at the time, he was never in 11 millions years worth £11m. The only reason he had a good season in 2001 was because we played so many games and a lot in lesser cups like the League Cup and UEFA Cup. Only ONCE has he scored 14 league goals in a season, we paid £11m for him when his best was 10 - and £11m was comparitively a lot in those days. It isn't the benefit of hindsight, it's simply the benefit of unimpaired sight, plain and simple. The problem is a lot of people are wrapped up in his type of striker, 110 league goals in 466 apps sums him up. villa bought him and I bet they're regretting it.

i acknowledge he's not the best striker in the world (see my original post), but at the time we weren't exactly the biggest draw in the world - not even regular qualifiers for europe let alone the CL 

so heskey 's quality was "about right" for the club at the time (i admit we paid a little bit too much)


...apologies if this is a bit off topic, but it all serves as background as to how the financial differences between liverpool and the mancs' and is reflected in the relative quality of our youngsters/reserves

[Owzat]

Ok maybe not an outright case of couldnt afford. But due to us spending poorly in the past we are then later faced with the 'cant afford' senario when we do need to spend a bit more than normal. Even with the add ons its still 12 mil, doesnt make a difference as he is a quality player who will no doubt make the number of appearances or score goals required to meet those criteria. It's too easy to look in hindsight 'had we not bought this player'.

Depends how much Sporting wanted for Ronaldo when we were interested. I recall reading about our interest and I think it was reported at £6m which is not a huge gamble by any stretch, even in those days.

You're absolutely right about hindsight, but the Ronaldo situation sounds like a case of blindness over foresight. Maybe fergie learned from that, better to buy and loan back than risk not buying.

heskey a waste?    easy to say in hindsight

i'm not saying he was/is a world class player but his first season or so with us was fantastic , winning a lot of trophies

I would have said it at the time, he was never in 11 millions years worth £11m. The only reason he had a good season in 2001 was because we played so many games and a lot in lesser cups like the League Cup and UEFA Cup. Only ONCE has he scored 14 league goals in a season, we paid £11m for him when his best was 10 - and £11m was comparitively a lot in those days. It isn't the benefit of hindsight, it's simply the benefit of unimpaired sight, plain and simple. The problem is a lot of people are wrapped up in his type of striker, 110 league goals in 466 apps sums him up. villa bought him and I bet they're regretting it.

i acknowledge he's not the best striker in the world (see my original post), but at the time we weren't exactly the biggest draw in the world - not even regular qualifiers for europe let alone the CL 

so heskey 's quality was "about right" for the club at the time (i admit we paid a little bit too much)


...apologies if this is a bit off topic, but it all serves as background as to how the financial differences between liverpool and the mancs' and is reflected in the relative quality of our youngsters/reserves

It was way over the odds, he was worth maybe £7m tops. He scored some useful goals, but he was still a waste of money.

Just because Heskey was here when we won trophies, doesn't mean he was the decisive factor. He didn't score in any of the three finals in 2000/01, even though we scored EIGHT goals in those finals.

And here's an interesting stat in a slightly unusual format, a stat I was vaguely aware of having posted something along the same lines somewhere else before (if not here)

Heskey Goals 2000/01

16. Everton - 2 goals in 2 apps
17. Derby County - 3 goals in 2 apps
------------------------------------------
18. Man City - 2 goals in 3 apps
19. Coventry City - 2 goals in 2 apps
20. Bradford City - 1 goal in 2 apps

He scored 22 goals in 2000/01, TEN of them against the bottom five in the Premiership (nearly half) Fair enough Emule scored nearly as many goals as Owen in the Premiership, but he did score all but five of his 14 against teams in the bottom five.

[DrPepe]

Ok maybe not an outright case of couldnt afford. But due to us spending poorly in the past we are then later faced with the 'cant afford' senario when we do need to spend a bit more than normal. Even with the add ons its still 12 mil, doesnt make a difference as he is a quality player who will no doubt make the number of appearances or score goals required to meet those criteria. It's too easy to look in hindsight 'had we not bought this player'.

Depends how much Sporting wanted for Ronaldo when we were interested. I recall reading about our interest and I think it was reported at £6m which is not a huge gamble by any stretch, even in those days.

You're absolutely right about hindsight, but the Ronaldo situation sounds like a case of blindness over foresight. Maybe fergie learned from that, better to buy and loan back than risk not buying.

heskey a waste?    easy to say in hindsight

i'm not saying he was/is a world class player but his first season or so with us was fantastic , winning a lot of trophies

I would have said it at the time, he was never in 11 millions years worth £11m. The only reason he had a good season in 2001 was because we played so many games and a lot in lesser cups like the League Cup and UEFA Cup. Only ONCE has he scored 14 league goals in a season, we paid £11m for him when his best was 10 - and £11m was comparitively a lot in those days. It isn't the benefit of hindsight, it's simply the benefit of unimpaired sight, plain and simple. The problem is a lot of people are wrapped up in his type of striker, 110 league goals in 466 apps sums him up. villa bought him and I bet they're regretting it.

i acknowledge he's not the best striker in the world (see my original post), but at the time we weren't exactly the biggest draw in the world - not even regular qualifiers for europe let alone the CL 

so heskey 's quality was "about right" for the club at the time (i admit we paid a little bit too much)


...apologies if this is a bit off topic, but it all serves as background as to how the financial differences between liverpool and the mancs' and is reflected in the relative quality of our youngsters/reserves

It was way over the odds, he was worth maybe £7m tops. He scored some useful goals, but he was still a waste of money.

Just because Heskey was here when we won trophies, doesn't mean he was the decisive factor. He didn't score in any of the three finals in 2000/01, even though we scored EIGHT goals in those finals.

And here's an interesting stat in a slightly unusual format, a stat I was vaguely aware of having posted something along the same lines somewhere else before (if not here)

Heskey Goals 2000/01

16. Everton - 2 goals in 2 apps
17. Derby County - 3 goals in 2 apps
------------------------------------------
18. Man City - 2 goals in 3 apps
19. Coventry City - 2 goals in 2 apps
20. Bradford City - 1 goal in 2 apps

He scored 22 goals in 2000/01, TEN of them against the bottom five in the Premiership (nearly half) Fair enough Emule scored nearly as many goals as Owen in the Premiership, but he did score all but five of his 14 against teams in the bottom five.

farkin 'ell owzat!

we need to buy heskey back    

our form against the bottom half of the prem is absolutely rank these last 2 seasons ...

[JoeTerp]

Just to play devil's advocate, aren't we indulging in a little over-valuing of our competitors' youngsters and under-valuing of our own here?  I've never been a Babel's biggest fan (a Babelian I am most certainly not ) but I'll acknowledge he's come up with important contributions on several occasions over the last couple of years, as has Lucas.  Are they really worse players than Nani or Anderson (neither of whom have really pulled up trees for the Mancs and spend a lot of time on the bench too), or Diaby (or Abu Diabolical, as some Gooners apparently call him), Denilson or Song?  As for Walcott, I rate him highly because the kid has bags of pace and skill but, in terms of what he's actually achieved with Arsenal, is he really streets ahead of Babel?  Sometimes, I just wonder if we fall into the 'grass is always greener' trap when comparing our squad players and reserves to those of our rivals.

With that said, of course, Mick is absolutely right in pointing out that not one youngster from the ressies/youth sides has yet to push through into the first team squad on a consistent basis under Rafa.  Insua is knocking at the door now but he's still not a permanent fixture in the squad and Rafa's almost been here five years.  That is a definite talking point, I'm just not sure all the comparing we do with the rivals is shedding light on the matter as opposed to muddying the waters.

doesn't seem like we were really aggressive in going after the young foreigners under Rafa until summer 2007.





Summer 2005:
Miki Roque
Godwin Antwi
Jack Hobbs
Ryan Flynn

January 2006:
David Martin

Summer 2006:
Nabil El Zhar
Martin Hansen
Nathan Ecclestone

January 2007:
Fransico Duran
Jordy Brouwer
Emiliano Insua (6 months loan to start)
Ronald Huth
Astrit Ajdarevic


Summer 2007
Sebastian Leto
Nikolay Mihaylov
Damien Plessis
Ryan Crowther
Mikel San Jose
Kristian Nemeth
Andras Simon
Peter Gulacsi (originally on loan)
Dean Bouzanis (was loaned right back to Australia till January)
Daniel Ayala
Gerardo Bruna
Gary Mackay-Steven
Daniel Pacheco
Marvin Pourie
David Amoo
Alexander Kacaniklic

January 2008
Alex Cooper
Lauri Dalla Valle
Andre Wisdom

Summer 2008:
David N'Gog
Emanuel Mendy
Zsolt Pölöskei  (on loan)
Nikola Saric
Vincent Weijl
Christopher Buchtmann
Deale Chamberlain
Vitor Flora

January 2009
Gudlaugur Victor Pálsson

[tubby]

Yeah that's interesting to note Joe. I really hope we have 1 or 2 more come through the ranks in the next year.

[bunglemark2]

I take my hat off to Joe - he IS the Oracle of knowledge. Not sure I'd want to use the stats in day-to-day conversation mind....might get strange looks around the dinner table

[DrPepe]

I take my hat off to Joe - he IS the Oracle of knowledge. Not sure I'd want to use the stats in day-to-day conversation mind....might get strange looks around the dinner table

why, because he like...knows stuff ...?

odd behaviour indeed


an interesting list, though - perhaps it's no surpriuse that not too many have come through yet, it's only been  2 or less  years since the bulk were bought in. Given the competition around europe we face for getting in the quality  youngsters, i wonder how many will make it 

[tubby]

It's only really Insua who has come through. NGog is there too but he never looks that convincing. To be honest NGog should go out on loan to another Premiership club so we can see what he can really do week in week out. We are never going to see him in action properly when he is just playing 10 mins here and there. On loan he would get more playing time. We should offer him to Wolves or one of the other newly promoted clubs.

[bunglemark2]

Anybody come across a link to the goals from the mauling of Newcastle Reserves yet ?
Please post if you have....

I'm thinking the Toon Army might want to put out their Reserves on Sunday to keep the score down....

[Owzat]

To be honest NGog should go out on loan to another Premiership club so we can see what he can really do week in week out. We are never going to see him in action properly when he is just playing 10 mins here and there. On loan he would get more playing time. We should offer him to Wolves or one of the other newly promoted clubs.

Is N'Gog better than what Wolves have already? They've got Ebanks-Blake, Iwelumo, Keogh and Vokes. I'm sure they'll be looking to add a striker, but one probably better than their best two.

Ebanks-Blake - 25 league goals
Iwelumo - 14 league goals
Vokes - 8 league goals
Harewood (loanee) - nada

They probably need at least one good player in each area - defence, midfield and attack. N'Gog would probably just end up on their bench instead of our's. Probably be better off loaning N'Gog to a modest Championship club where he might start a few games. Believe it or not QPR have only scored 41 goals this season in the Championship, even relegated Saints (45) and Charlton (48) have managed more than that. Scanning down the table and adding up the home and away goals, I reckon QPR are lowest scorers - largely down to scoring only 13 goals away all season.

Championship Lowest Goals 08/09 (League Position In Brackets)

41 QPR (11th)
42 Doncaster Rovers (13th)
43 Barnsley (21st)
43 Plymouth (19th)
45 Southampton (23rd)

But Wolves I believe are top scorers with 79 ahead of Reading on 71.

[tubby]

I just used them as an example. It depends on how much these teams spend in the summer really but there is bound to be one that doesnt spend much. Like WBA this yea.r