Liverpool FC Forum

[GOAT]

wait wait wait... everyone complains when we go for an english lad coz too much money... now everyone moaning we dont go for an english lad?

fickles the word

"Fickles" not the word Daws at all. Some of us aren't complaining about us signing English players for a lot of money, and some of us think that we should concentrate more of our efforts on recruiting young British kids.

How is that fickle? Don't be silly.

Can't help it if the english kids are sh.ite can we

[Parkinson]

this is being completely blown out of proportion. Rafa, IMO, did not "get serious" about signing foreign youth talents until 2007. Since then, Insua has come through, and we have brought in lads like Lauri Dalla Valle who is rated as one of the top players of his age in Europe and Chrisopher Buchtmann who made a UEFA list of players of the future after impressing at the U17 Euros. Kacaniklic has also been a very impressive foreign academy signing, and has been promoted to Melwood. Other than that, very few foreigners have actually been based at the academy and players like Spearing, Darby, Kelly, Irwin, and other have been promoted to the reserves.

And its not like we have not been trying to sign the top talent from the country. We have been on the losing end of the race to sign people like  John Cofie and Aaron Ramsey. But its hard to attract the top talent to come when you don't have kids making the grade at your club, and its hard to get kids to make the grade at the club if you cannot attract the top talent, a culture that Rafa inherited and something that is difficult to turn around.


In many ways its easier to bring in these Spanish kids than English kids because of the loophole where English teams can offer pro contracts at a younger age. Since we have a  much better scouting network in Spain, it wouldn't make sense NOT to try and take advantage of the rule.  Also, Rafa has a very strict ENGLISH SPEAKING ONLY rule with his players I think it is a gross exaggeration to suggest that somehow a Scouser could feel like a foreigner at the LFC academy.

All that said, I think we have too many players in the reserves, and I will be very disapointed if the expected exodus does not come, but I have said that I will wait to comment on the whole situation until September 1.

Lets not forget who the three subs were that came on against PSV: Spearing (Wirral), Darby (Liverpool (can't seem to find specifics)), and Kelly (Whiston)

And scored one of the goals that turned the tide of the title against us: Federico Macheda (Rome)


If any Scouser is scared of a little competition in the squad when he is 15, and flees to Everton, I would question what kind of character they are going to have at 23, when they are also going to have to compete against players from the world over to earn a place in the 1st team. Bringing in a diversity of talent, IMO can only be beneficial for the development of the top level local kids, and to be honest, those are the only local kids that matter int terms of what matters for the 1st team.

Good post.

[JoeTerp]

Is Suso a typical nickname for Jesus? Sounds like it would be. Maybe we could call him El Hijo

Yes.

Jesus has two shorts actually.

You have Chus, which is working class version of Jesus

And you have Suso. A bit gay.

If a guy is gay and his name is Jesus, it's more likely he chooses Suso .

link with picture

may confirm Sabre's gay prediction          

Think it says he is creative, left-footed, and good at one on ones.

[JoeTerp]

On the other hand, if you bring a 15 year old Spaniard, the possibilities of him reaching to the first team are still minimum. It's a long shot. I'd only bring a Spaniard if he really seemed like a new Messi. Pachecos? I've seen lots of Pachecos.

So yes, I can understand your concern. And I have to agree it's about time to see some results from the youth academy. And as a fan who understands the value of local football and youth systems, I agree with your concerns.

Bringing 15 year olds is not a good idea. I don't like it ethically, and I don't like it when I think of the impact it may have on Liverpool young lads.

To be fair to Pacheco, you cannot write him off yet, he has improved over his two years here and is getting noticeably stronger (although he started off so weak that you could say there was only one direction he could go.  But I am disappointed a bit in his talent, especially his finishing, and was certainly expecting more.  But its also important to remember that age wise, he could have been playing in the U18 cup this year, and has clearly progressed further than some of the people on that team, and yet the club is still holding out hope for them (namely English lads Eccleston and Amoo)

While the odds are going to be against any kid making it at the club, I don't think this should discourage us from looking far and wide for younger talent. Especially in the case of Pacheco, there could be lots of other benefits that he brings to the club, even if he never plays a first team game.  Its likely that if he is sold, it will be for a profit because we bought him very cheap on the loophole rule that allows English clubs to offer pro contracts earlier than Spanish ones.  While maybe you have seen a lot of Pachecos in your time, its probably that other reserve players looking to improve have not. Local defenders like Kelly and Darby will benefit from training against a higher quality opponent, and Pacheco is clearly better than any attacking talent that would have played in his place even if he may not be an the elite level.  Thirdly, something that is at least important in American talent procurement, is laying the "recruiting pipeline." Pacheco was the first player to come to LFC from Barca under this style of transfer, and it could lay the groundwork for when that next Messi does come along.

Ethically speaking, a CEOs first responsibility is to his stakeholders not the environmentalists. A Managers ethical responsibility to his board and to the fans is to win, everything else is icing on the cupcake.

[aCe']

On the other hand, if you bring a 15 year old Spaniard, the possibilities of him reaching to the first team are still minimum. It's a long shot. I'd only bring a Spaniard if he really seemed like a new Messi. Pachecos? I've seen lots of Pachecos.

So yes, I can understand your concern. And I have to agree it's about time to see some results from the youth academy. And as a fan who understands the value of local football and youth systems, I agree with your concerns.

Bringing 15 year olds is not a good idea. I don't like it ethically, and I don't like it when I think of the impact it may have on Liverpool young lads.

To be fair to Pacheco, you cannot write him off yet, he has improved over his two years here and is getting noticeably stronger (although he started off so weak that you could say there was only one direction he could go.  But I am disappointed a bit in his talent, especially his finishing, and was certainly expecting more.  But its also important to remember that age wise, he could have been playing in the U18 cup this year, and has clearly progressed further than some of the people on that team, and yet the club is still holding out hope for them (namely English lads Eccleston and Amoo)

While the odds are going to be against any kid making it at the club, I don't think this should discourage us from looking far and wide for younger talent. Especially in the case of Pacheco, there could be lots of other benefits that he brings to the club, even if he never plays a first team game.  Its likely that if he is sold, it will be for a profit because we bought him very cheap on the loophole rule that allows English clubs to offer pro contracts earlier than Spanish ones.  While maybe you have seen a lot of Pachecos in your time, its probably that other reserve players looking to improve have not. Local defenders like Kelly and Darby will benefit from training against a higher quality opponent, and Pacheco is clearly better than any attacking talent that would have played in his place even if he may not be an the elite level.  Thirdly, something that is at least important in American talent procurement, is laying the "recruiting pipeline." Pacheco was the first player to come to LFC from Barca under this style of transfer, and it could lay the groundwork for when that next Messi does come along.

Ethically speaking, a CEOs first responsibility is to his stakeholders not the environmentalists. A Managers ethical responsibility to his board and to the fans is to win, everything else is icing on the cupcake.

sorry to take this a bit off topic but i get the feeling your a recent graduate ... What did you study ?

[JoeTerp]

marketing. Graduated in May 08

[Sabre]

That was a good post and the previous one as well, Joe. I was not writting off Pacheco, I can't write off a player that I have seen 3 times playing.

I won't deny he has good skill. All I'm saying mate is that it's soooo difficult to reach the first team of a first division team... I've seen many Pachecos in the sense that I've seen many quality players that then failed. It's not about skill.

I'll always remember Amutxastegi, a guy that used to play for Real Sociedad a couple of years before Alonso. I knew him because back then I used to teach maths to secondary school guys to earn my money. And I taught the lad maths.

He was an attacking mid, he used his body to protect the ball better than anyone, he ran with the ball perfecty, but he didn't love football. He was more interested on poetry, and dancing at night clubs (I must say that beside maths I did try to convince him to sacrifice for football with no success).0 Incredible, but true.

There are many things that can go wrong in a footballer before he can become a professional, and skill is a necessary condition, but not sufficient, that's what I meant when I said I've seen many Pachecos. Only a very very small portion of them will make it. Thus, I'd bring only the guys that are really especial, I don't like the scatter gun tactic.

[dawson99]

wait wait wait... everyone complains when we go for an english lad coz too much money... now everyone moaning we dont go for an english lad?

fickles the word

"Fickles" not the word Daws at all. Some of us aren't complaining about us signing English players for a lot of money, and some of us think that we should concentrate more of our efforts on recruiting young British kids.

How is that fickle? Don't be silly.

Can't help it if the english kids are sh.ite can we

..and I thought we had a youth system full of young brits who just can't seem to make the grade.. maybe they need more chances but right now... I just want players who'll benefit the team, don't give a feck where they are from as long as they wanna play for us and they can do the job

[GYBS]

Spot On Daws - who gives a flying monkeys were they come from - either from outer mongolia or born in the training room its wether they benefit Liverpool is all that matters - This new spanish coach has turned players like messi,pique, fabregas into the players they are now .

[JoeTerp]

I am very aware that the odds are against him, and I think it is very fair to question how special his talent is. But I think he brings a lot to the reserve set up that would be missing without him, and it helps create a an environment of skill, and environment that hopefully younger lads will look up to, and one that will be more attractive to potentially more special kids in the future. I see kids of Pachecos ilk to be a stepping stone to where we want to get to, and in the mean time I don't think he is hurting the club, himself, or the chances of any local attacking talent. AND that is all assuming the worst in his progression, which still does have a glimmer of hope. AND he was rated pretty highly in the Barca camp (granted not at a Bojan kind of level, probably not even an Assulin level) when he signed him so it was probably fair to expect a higher level of specialness, which would have further justified the signing.

[Bad Bob]

Well your not saying much there now are you...
I said hes a good coach... defensively and tactically i think hes probably as good as they come...  wasnt talking about our points records or trophies we won (not that there isnt much to say about both), but rather about some of the other aspects that have to do with a 'manager's' job rather than a coach's..
.
Your next point about transfers is also a funny one... Name one manager who managed a top club for 5 years and didnt bring in 4 top players in that time period... hell even GH did it.. Hughes did it with ManCity so it all comes down to money ... Now given the money spent on players outside the 4 your mentioned, the number of players he bought, the number of players sold...etc its fair to say that his transfer policy is a little 'hit and miss' to say the least..

As for the man management part, think its interesting that you'd put Torres there as the example.... wonder what Keane, Alonso, Crouch, Pennant, Babel, Riise...etc would have to say about that if they openly discussed it..

And no it isnt a mystery Bob... most of you guys are happy just looking at the bright side... thinking its always good and dandy in bright old Liverpool.. When you talk about transfers you're happy pointing out the 4 out of 60 or so who made it... 2nd in the league is seen as this huge achievement and hey.. it doesnt matter what he does, we'll always have the best manager in the world..
We've done alot better towards the end of last season, funny enough that was the time Rafa seemingly decided to change his ways drastically... playing attacking football, playing a settled side..etc etc... If he can pick up from there and take some of this into next season then good for us... Its going to be a long summer though, thats for sure...

Contrary to your 'happy clappy' mantra, I'm happy to concede that Rafa has weaknesses and think that we could have (and have had) a fruitful discussion about those aspects of his managerial brief that you've highlighted (as S@int's added to above).  But, it's impossible to take someone seriously that suggests Rafa's "cack" at any of these dimensions of his job.  "Cack" managers simply do not produce trophy winning and title challenging sides.  And, no, I don't think you can be so good at other dimensions of your job (like "coaching") at this level that you can get away with being "cack" at transfers, man-management and handling the media.   FFS, we were the second strongest team in the strongest league in world football last season yet somehow our manager is completely rubbish at three key dimensions of his job? Doubtful.

[Reg]

Spot On Daws - who gives a flying monkeys were they come from - either from outer mongolia or born in the training room its wether they benefit Liverpool is all that matters - This new spanish coach has turned players like messi,pique, fabregas into the players they are now .

I care for two very simple reasons.

1. The academy has the responsibility to produce top players of the future for LFC.
2. It must also run profitably otherwise it is a wasted resource and a drain on funds.

I maintain that an incoming 15 year old wont want to spend 10 years of his life to learn his trade, break into the first team at 20 possibly then play 5 years at that level. Its not realistic - he´s Spanish or Czech, or Bulgarian not English and in the vast majority of cases they will want to stay for 5-6 years then move on, most likely home. An English lad is different, he is home, he is in his own environment and culture and he understands the aura and image of LFC. He´ll be more willing to stay, he´s close to his family and does not consider a move offshore at that stage of his career. Its a dream for when he´s 25-27 to move abroad, not at 20 - the opposite of the foreign lad he's playing with at the academy today.

Second the academy must provide a return on investment. 20 year olds returning home dont command big fees when they didnt break into the first team so they cost us money. Every transfer window we buy players direct for the first team showing that the academy is not working and that we´re getting a poor return on investment. How many millions have we spent in the last 5 years on first team players? Ouch!

This is my simplistic thinking, we need a greater emphasis on home grown talent as their pay back period is longer and they dont have a natural and understandable longing to go home.

[bunglemark2]

It kinda begs the question, if LFC and other clubs seemingly go abroad as first port of call (wherever that may be !) to pick up an apprentice for the Reserves, why exactly is that ? What do the locals NOT have that these lads DO ?
I suppose you can't explain it away with the iPod and X-Box generation 'cos kids everywhere have them. Yet it seems to me that kids from afar seem to have more of a desire to get ahead on the football pitch. They're certainly more skilful, though of course there are exceptions.
And I ask that question of young lads in England, Scotland, Wales and of course Ireland......

[Reg]

The UK school system gave up on competitive sports 2 school generations ago - the problem lies in the schools not encouraging lads to fufill their dreams.

If they did, Spanish clubs would be buying up English 15 year olds wouldnt they?

[DrPepe]

The UK school system gave up on competitive sports 2 school generations ago - the problem lies in the schools not encouraging lads to fufill their dreams.

If they did, Spanish clubs would be buying up English 15 year olds wouldnt they?

you mean it's not Rick Parry's fault?