Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

There are times when I think that at any moment you are about to decloak yourself as a wind up merchant, "I had you all going there lads eh? come on I gotcha, admit it now " but you never do.

[aCe']

[JoeTerp]

OK Mick, so your saying that its vitally important that we revert focus to bringing in the top players from around the area. People like Rodwell and Baxter and especially Rooney. And then you say that because we haven't brought anybody through for a while, nobody wants to come to Liverpool because there aren't as many opportunities for young players, we don't have a recent history of success, and there is too much foreign competition.  Well, if we stopped today bringing in foreigners or even anybody outside of Merseyside, and made public that the academy was for Scousers only, I think that kids would still chose Everton over us because of their track record and easier path to the first team.

So what do we do about that? Well what is our advantage over basically every club in the country? Our knowledge of Spanish football, and lucky for us, there is a rule that lets us pip just about any 16 year old that we want that is willing to make the trip.

I think its a case of this path was made for us a while back and its probably easier to just try and do it better than to go back to an all local academy.  At the same time, we are bringing in former Barca technical coaches to make the next little Johnny Scouse that we do have in the ranks have the same skill as Leo Messi only with the drive and passion of Steven Gerrard. Because I don't think there is anything innate in Spanish speakers DNA or anything that makes them trickier on the ball, its more of a coaching/cultural thing.  I think if anything, coaches with that kind of background are going to HELP us attract local kids Come to Liverpool, we'll make you the next Xavi or Iniesta, which probably sounds more attractive if I was a parent. You can't really make somebody the next Steven Gerrard, he was born with the capacity to become the monster he is. You cannot teach that kind of power, drive, intensity, etc.  But I think a nice selling point would be, at a minimum, your kid is going to be technically sound, and tactically aware; whether he has the physical skills and the right mental mindset is up to the kid and what he was born with.

But until we can breed this new Hybrid class of Scouse footballers who are I guess 8 years old right now, I think our best chance is to find the best kids from the world over, and do our best to sign the best ones and not just anybody, which I will admit seems to be the case with some of these foreigners (Hansen, Mendy, Antwi, Roque, Simon, Flora, Paletta, Brouwer)  I would probably say that all the other foreigners were useful signings and worth a pop.

[account deleted by request]

OK Mick, so your saying that its vitally important that we revert focus to bringing in the top players from around the area. People like Rodwell and Baxter and especially Rooney. And then you say that because we haven't brought anybody through for a while, nobody wants to come to Liverpool because there aren't as many opportunities for young players, we don't have a recent history of success, and there is too much foreign competition.  Well, if we stopped today bringing in foreigners or even anybody outside of Merseyside, and made public that the academy was for Scousers only, I think that kids would still chose Everton over us because of their track record and easier path to the first team.

So what do we do about that? Well what is our advantage over basically every club in the country? Our knowledge of Spanish football, and lucky for us, there is a rule that lets us pip just about any 16 year old that we want that is willing to make the trip.

I think its a case of this path was made for us a while back and its probably easier to just try and do it better than to go back to an all local academy.  At the same time, we are bringing in former Barca technical coaches to make the next little Johnny Scouse that we do have in the ranks have the same skill as Leo Messi only with the drive and passion of Steven Gerrard. Because I don't think there is anything innate in Spanish speakers DNA or anything that makes them trickier on the ball, its more of a coaching/cultural thing.  I think if anything, coaches with that kind of background are going to HELP us attract local kids Come to Liverpool, we'll make you the next Xavi or Iniesta, which probably sounds more attractive if I was a parent. You can't really make somebody the next Steven Gerrard, he was born with the capacity to become the monster he is. You cannot teach that kind of power, drive, intensity, etc.  But I think a nice selling point would be, at a minimum, your kid is going to be technically sound, and tactically aware; whether he has the physical skills and the right mental mindset is up to the kid and what he was born with.

But until we can breed this new Hybrid class of Scouse footballers who are I guess 8 years old right now, I think our best chance is to find the best kids from the world over, and do our best to sign the best ones and not just anybody, which I will admit seems to be the case with some of these foreigners (Hansen, Mendy, Antwi, Roque, Simon, Flora, Paletta, Brouwer)  I would probably say that all the other foreigners were useful signings and worth a pop.

Sadly Joe your premise would not work in England. All that would happen is that their early technical advantages would dissipate due to the British weather.

Part of an article I posted earlier  :-

Long has it been thought the weather was to the detriment of the game but never had I heard a valid enough reason until now. It came from a book by Gianluca Vialli (and journalist Gabrielle Marcotti) entitled The Italian Job sought to find the differences of the Italian and English football cultures. I wondered if Arsenal played in La Liga, will we see the same fast flowing football or would it be slower? The wind making the football quicker as less time could be focused in training on technique. Personally I still don’t think it has affected the English game much but nevertheless an interesting read. This is what Vialli had to say in his book:

“It’s all about the climate. I had a long discussion about it when I went to Scotland to see Andy Roxburgh. I worked with a Scottish youth side and had them do the same drills I would do in Italy. I realised that, between the wind, the rain and the cold, there was no way they could do it. How can you possibly teach anybody anything in those conditions? To me, it’s pretty obvious and it explains why Brazilians are more technical than Europeans and, in Italy, the further south you go the more technical they are.”

- Fabio Capello, on the cultural differences behind footballing styles

I looked at three English cities (London, Birmingham and Manchester) and three Italian cities (Milan, Turin and Rome) and evaluated data on average temperature, wind speed, rainfall and hours of sunshine per month.

The research showed clearly that there was no substantial difference in temperature and that it rained more in Turin than in London. So why did it feel colder in London? The answer came when I looked at wind speeds. The average monthly wind speed in the three English cities was 15.3 kilometres per hour, compared with 10.3km per hour in the Italian cities. That meant that in England the wind blew some 50 per cent harder than it did in Italy. A substantial difference. And if we exclude the non-footballing summer months, the gap increases. The average in Manchester, Birmingham and London is 15.6km per hour while in Milan, Turin and Rome it’s just 10.1km per hour.

I felt vindicated. It supported what I had suspected for a long time — that wind, more than any other climatic factor, influences the development of a footballer. It seems basic, it seems simplistic, but it is an absolutely huge factor. And it’s not just something that affects young players: it has an impact on how a team trains and, therefore, how it plays, even at professional level.

“One of the first things I had to get accustomed to as soon as I arrived in England was the weather. And I don’t mean the temperature or the rain but, most of all, the wind. The wind ruins everything. It forces you to do only one type of exercise. It forces you to work on either speed or continuous movement. It’s very rare that you get the chance to sit calmly and work on technique or on tactics. You have to keep the players moving, otherwise they get cold. And this is something which begins way back when they are children.”

- Arsene Wenger

The wind affects everything. You can be the most technical footballer in the world — you can be Zidane and Maradona rolled into one — but if a fierce wind is blowing, you won’t be able to do any meaningful work with the ball in the air, whether it’s volleying practice, heading or keepy-uppy. Even any kind of passing over ten or 20 feet becomes pointless when it’s windy. And it’s not just down to the way the wind affects the flight of the ball. No. As Wenger points out, the wind makes everything feel colder. You don’t want to do a shooting drill or individual ballwork when players spend lots of time standing around. You want to keep them moving so that their muscles stay loose.

I have clear memories of standing on a training pitch in Italy as the coaches explained what they wanted us to do tactically in excruciating detail. We would play for about 30 seconds, then everything would stop and they would explain it again if somebody made a mistake or didn’t make a crisp enough run. All of this, of course, was in addition to the time we spent in front of the blackboard. This type of tactical work gave us a base in terms of movement and reading the game. In England the wind makes it impossible to replicate that kind of work.

Does it explain why, generally, Italian players have better individual technique than their English counterparts and why in Italy we spend much more time on tactics? Not on its own, but it’s certainly a factor. More than any other climatic factor, the wind determines what kind of players are produced and their characteristics, both technical and tactical.

[Bad Bob]

OK Mick, so your saying that its vitally important that we revert focus to bringing in the top players from around the area. People like Rodwell and Baxter and especially Rooney. And then you say that because we haven't brought anybody through for a while, nobody wants to come to Liverpool because there aren't as many opportunities for young players, we don't have a recent history of success, and there is too much foreign competition.  Well, if we stopped today bringing in foreigners or even anybody outside of Merseyside, and made public that the academy was for Scousers only, I think that kids would still chose Everton over us because of their track record and easier path to the first team.

So what do we do about that? Well what is our advantage over basically every club in the country? Our knowledge of Spanish football, and lucky for us, there is a rule that lets us pip just about any 16 year old that we want that is willing to make the trip.

I think its a case of this path was made for us a while back and its probably easier to just try and do it better than to go back to an all local academy.  At the same time, we are bringing in former Barca technical coaches to make the next little Johnny Scouse that we do have in the ranks have the same skill as Leo Messi only with the drive and passion of Steven Gerrard. Because I don't think there is anything innate in Spanish speakers DNA or anything that makes them trickier on the ball, its more of a coaching/cultural thing.  I think if anything, coaches with that kind of background are going to HELP us attract local kids Come to Liverpool, we'll make you the next Xavi or Iniesta, which probably sounds more attractive if I was a parent. You can't really make somebody the next Steven Gerrard, he was born with the capacity to become the monster he is. You cannot teach that kind of power, drive, intensity, etc.  But I think a nice selling point would be, at a minimum, your kid is going to be technically sound, and tactically aware; whether he has the physical skills and the right mental mindset is up to the kid and what he was born with.

But until we can breed this new Hybrid class of Scouse footballers who are I guess 8 years old right now, I think our best chance is to find the best kids from the world over, and do our best to sign the best ones and not just anybody, which I will admit seems to be the case with some of these foreigners (Hansen, Mendy, Antwi, Roque, Simon, Flora, Paletta, Brouwer)  I would probably say that all the other foreigners were useful signings and worth a pop.

Sadly Joe your premise would not work in England. All that would happen is that their early technical advantages would dissipate due to the British weather.

Part of an article I posted earlier  :-

Long has it been thought the weather was to the detriment of the game but never had I heard a valid enough reason until now. It came from a book by Gianluca Vialli (and journalist Gabrielle Marcotti) entitled The Italian Job sought to find the differences of the Italian and English football cultures. I wondered if Arsenal played in La Liga, will we see the same fast flowing football or would it be slower? The wind making the football quicker as less time could be focused in training on technique. Personally I still don’t think it has affected the English game much but nevertheless an interesting read. This is what Vialli had to say in his book:

“It’s all about the climate. I had a long discussion about it when I went to Scotland to see Andy Roxburgh. I worked with a Scottish youth side and had them do the same drills I would do in Italy. I realised that, between the wind, the rain and the cold, there was no way they could do it. How can you possibly teach anybody anything in those conditions? To me, it’s pretty obvious and it explains why Brazilians are more technical than Europeans and, in Italy, the further south you go the more technical they are.”

- Fabio Capello, on the cultural differences behind footballing styles

I looked at three English cities (London, Birmingham and Manchester) and three Italian cities (Milan, Turin and Rome) and evaluated data on average temperature, wind speed, rainfall and hours of sunshine per month.

The research showed clearly that there was no substantial difference in temperature and that it rained more in Turin than in London. So why did it feel colder in London? The answer came when I looked at wind speeds. The average monthly wind speed in the three English cities was 15.3 kilometres per hour, compared with 10.3km per hour in the Italian cities. That meant that in England the wind blew some 50 per cent harder than it did in Italy. A substantial difference. And if we exclude the non-footballing summer months, the gap increases. The average in Manchester, Birmingham and London is 15.6km per hour while in Milan, Turin and Rome it’s just 10.1km per hour.

I felt vindicated. It supported what I had suspected for a long time — that wind, more than any other climatic factor, influences the development of a footballer. It seems basic, it seems simplistic, but it is an absolutely huge factor. And it’s not just something that affects young players: it has an impact on how a team trains and, therefore, how it plays, even at professional level.

“One of the first things I had to get accustomed to as soon as I arrived in England was the weather. And I don’t mean the temperature or the rain but, most of all, the wind. The wind ruins everything. It forces you to do only one type of exercise. It forces you to work on either speed or continuous movement. It’s very rare that you get the chance to sit calmly and work on technique or on tactics. You have to keep the players moving, otherwise they get cold. And this is something which begins way back when they are children.”

- Arsene Wenger

The wind affects everything. You can be the most technical footballer in the world — you can be Zidane and Maradona rolled into one — but if a fierce wind is blowing, you won’t be able to do any meaningful work with the ball in the air, whether it’s volleying practice, heading or keepy-uppy. Even any kind of passing over ten or 20 feet becomes pointless when it’s windy. And it’s not just down to the way the wind affects the flight of the ball. No. As Wenger points out, the wind makes everything feel colder. You don’t want to do a shooting drill or individual ballwork when players spend lots of time standing around. You want to keep them moving so that their muscles stay loose.

I have clear memories of standing on a training pitch in Italy as the coaches explained what they wanted us to do tactically in excruciating detail. We would play for about 30 seconds, then everything would stop and they would explain it again if somebody made a mistake or didn’t make a crisp enough run. All of this, of course, was in addition to the time we spent in front of the blackboard. This type of tactical work gave us a base in terms of movement and reading the game. In England the wind makes it impossible to replicate that kind of work.

Does it explain why, generally, Italian players have better individual technique than their English counterparts and why in Italy we spend much more time on tactics? Not on its own, but it’s certainly a factor. More than any other climatic factor, the wind determines what kind of players are produced and their characteristics, both technical and tactical.

Ahh, the environmentally determinist explanation!  Next we'll be hearing how hot-blooded Latin types are not physically suited to playing football in England.   In all seriousness, I don't doubt that weather plays some role in the whole equation but--at the risk of sounding naive about how training works--could they not do some of their training indoors?

[GYBS]

dont all major clubs have indoor facilites to train on now ? where i play hockey in milton keynes the dons hava state of the art indoor artifical grass facility to train on ?? im sure the top clubs have this . but wind effecting the development of a player ?!?!? what next

[JoeTerp]

Isn't that what the Ian Frodsham Sports Hall is for?

[account deleted by request]

Seems simple enough to me now then lads. Rather than importing technically proficient foreigners, we just build a few more indoor facilities and we wont need the foreigners as our young players will be equally proficient technically.

[GYBS]

all because of moving indoors ? cant see it myself .

[Number 9]

Anybody ever thought that the culture amongst the youth of today in England/UK has something to do with the fact there are lesser English/Scouse players coming through?
Cause i sure as fuc'k do and cant believe no one has touched on it already!

Lets face it football is a working class game..there are very few children who are born in well to do areas who are interested in football.
No... Rugby or rowing would be more their thing.
The working class youth of today are wild out of order.Everywhere there are gangs.Its not cool to excel at sport,its cool get wasted and carry knives and generally be a menace to society!
Now Im not saying ALL kids are bad but they dont care as much about making something of themselves..there seems to be a mindset among youth that they are above the law and can do what they want!
I can just imagine a young guy about 14.."what you at tonight Trev?"
"Gonna play football".." Fuc'king pussy"....Young Trev goes and has a smoke of a spliff and the footy goes out the window!

I dont think theres less talent out there,I just think that there are less that can be bothered with all the hard work and dedication it takes in the formative years of a footballers career!
Lets face it..theres easier ways out there to make a footballers apprentices wage these days,
Buy an ounce of wacky cut it into quarters sell it to your mates..or go and stick a knife to some poor fuc'kers throat steal his Blackberry and sell it for £50!!

OK two extremes but im sure people get where Im coming from!

[GYBS]

Dont forget the playstation x box phase as well mate - kids would rather play Fifa or pro evo against their mates or Football Manager as opposed to a good old fashioned kickabout . as a kid i used to rush home to get out and play football as soon as i can - these days kids rush home to play the latest game on the pc .

[Number 9]

Dont forget the playstation x box phase as well mate - kids would rather play Fifa or pro evo against their mates or Football Manager as opposed to a good old fashioned kickabout . as a kid i used to rush home to get out and play football as soon as i can - these days kids rush home to play the latest game on the pc .

Cant believe I find myself agreeing with you!
When I was growing up there were kickabouts all over the street..we used to play in the road and stop when a car came by!

You dont see that as much now!
Im not saying kids dont play footy,but its not played as much as it was.
Im not too sure how many amateur teams for kids are out there,loads I know like but I bet theres a lot less than ten years ago!

Its too easy to say our scouts are not trying hard enough locally!its too easy for bigmick to say the scattergun approach wont work.If a player is good enough he is good enough,simple.It does not matter if he lives on the doorsteps of Anfield or Rio!The bottom line is we are the 2nd best(soon to be 1st best)club in England and there are very few kids out there good enough to make the grade!
The way I look at it is that the academy costs little per year to run if you compare it to the price of a top talent!Say Gerrards worth £50 million now..It cost us feck all practically to bring him up!
The academy can run for years and if we find another Stevie it will be worth all the useless ones that came,tried and were not good enough!

I really dont understand anyones gripe with us brining in Jesus..get him in,let the lad play and if hes good enough great,if hes not keep looking!

Dont get me wrong Id love to see more homegrown players in the team..i know Im an oot like but I can feel the special bond there is with Carra and Gerrard cause they are local lads!It will be a sad day they hang up their boots and there is not a scouser in the team...BUT if thats the way it is..Cest la Vie!

Lets just hope someone pops up....The Scouts are looking!

[GYBS]

agree 100% mate - i dont see any kickabouts at all - i walk my dog every night through this park and i see kids sitting around smoking and drinking and trying to get the local slapper into the sack and listening to sh.ite music but no one kicking a ball or playing cricket during the summer . its a sad state but thats the lazy way the world has become now .

ffs we used to have to play with a tennis ball at school because a football was too big to be allowed . used a rolled up bit of paper covered in cellotape at times as well . anything just to have a kickabout and it didnt matter what the weather was - it was worth the slapping from your mother when you ruined your clothes with mud just to have a game of football

[NANNY RED]

do you know what Barry you are so right,

An from my experience of being involved with kids footie, is a lot of parents cant be botherd taking there kids to training or to games , relying on other people to do it for them, I was involved with a great young under 14s team in london right through until they were 18, won every thing , a few of the lads are now pro with different clubs, Kieran Richardson, being one of them, There was a kid better than him, scouts new it an so did everyone else but he never had the support of his parents in getting him to games, i had to pick him up every week, The kid ended up at Millwall then West Ham, but his mam couldnt be botherd getting him there , Such a waste of talent, its a shame because ive seen this happen to so many kids

[Madmax]

Well once we get Xbox project natal underway all will go well...