Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

Just before the Watford game the other day I was having a brief chat with Dawson in the Watford thread. I was saying, that I would of liked to see Crouch and Bellamy play upfront together for that match. Instead of Bellamy and Kuyt, who Dawson would of prefered, funnily enough we both got our wishes as Rafa played three upfront.

That was a good result for us, even if the performance was slightly sterile, but I'd of happily taken that result and performance given the week we've had. After watching the game I honestly thought Crouch was the most liveliest of the three forwards and probably our best player on the day. And of course he scored two goals aswell.

I know in that game Kuyt dropped off Bellamy and Crouch to come deep and almost played a link man at times. But he also does that when playing in a pair upfront, leaving his partner most of the time to sniff out the chances alone. Obviously Rafa likes this about him, personally I dont. When I was brought up playing football as a striker, the main aim was to be selfish infront of goal, play off the last defender and bag a hatfull of goals. If you didnt come up with the goals on a consistent basis, you'd find yourself warming the bench for the next game. How the game has changed, in terms of what managers expect from their players and in this instance their strikers. But it has not changed the fact that goals win you games and for me and for all his starts this season Kuyt hasnt done this. I'd happily have his fellow countryman RVN in the Liverpool side over him, because he is an old fashioned type of center-forward who gets goals.

All our strikers, mainly Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch all have the same ethic as in they'll work hard and chase down defenders. Which is great, but at the end of the day in my book especially its goals that count. And looking at recent displays, or displays this season its apparent to me that out of those three Kuyt is the least likeliest to find the onion bag.
But yet he seems to be Rafa's first choice of strikers on the teamsheet every week. And TBH its left me puzzled to say the least. Has he continuously picked him, is it because he's rated Kuyt ever since he was at Valencia ? Will he not rotate him, like most of the other players because he was a big summer signing, and cant justify it ? Or is simply because he thinks he's doing enough in the side at the moment to warrant a start ?

If the latter is true, think of the games we've dominated and havent won because of our lack of clinical finnishing. Where if we would of had your Robbie Fowler type of strikers there, or even Robbie himself we may well of got more points from games. Actually the most recent game where we  didnt convert our goals into chances was probably at Blackburn on boxing day. But it was Crouch who failed to convert on numerous occasions,granted. But at least he's taking up those positions to begin with, which is just as important. Kuyts not doing that as such, so effectively we have only on forward out of two, who seem to be looking to score goals, either Bellamy when paired off with Kuyt or Crouch when paired off with Kuyt.

I'm not bashing Kuyt here let me tell you, but like I said in my mind obviously not Rafa's strikers are there to get you goals like Rush, Owen, Fowler, Shearer and Linekar did for there teams respectively. I just think Rafa shouldnt pick Kuyt game after game if he's rotating the majority of players around him on a regular basis. The only player who hasnt really been rotated this season is Finnan and thats due to the fact we've got knowone who can fill in. But the same cant be said for our strikers, so Rafa rotate all FOUR of your strikers, not just leave one position free to fight it out between three. Hell play Robbie more, the guy deserves more than five minutes at the end of every other premiership match way play.

If anyone here thinks what Kuyts doing game in and game out is enough well I'm sorry your wrong. All of fans might say he's good at droppping off and linking up midfield and defence. Bo.llox he's gotta do more than that IMO. And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

[A.B.]

Kuyt is everything that Crouch isn't. He has a better first touch, better vision, better distribution of the ball, more strength, overall more ability.

Granted Crouch has scored more goals than Kuyt in all competitions [Kuyt has scored more in the Premiership].

HOWEVER Cisse scored more goals than any of our other strikers last year and he wasn't our best striker by any means.

And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

Give Rafa a ring and tell him that. 

[66-1112520797]

Kuyt is everything that Crouch isn't. He has a better first touch, better vision, better distribution of the ball, more strength, overall more ability.

Granted Crouch has scored more goals than Kuyt in all competitions [Kuyt has scored more in the Premiership].

HOWEVER Cisse scored more goals than any of our other strikers last year and he wasn't our best striker by any means.

And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

Give Rafa a ring and tell him that. 

So what should a striker do .......... Oh mighty one?

Another mister no it all, but knows not alot and runs on stats 

[66-1112520797]

  Your funny ........ not 

[babu]

Whoa Bamaga man, didn't you take your pills today?  {jokes}

I don't believe Kuyt will be a 20+ striker, at least not with this current squad. Then again i am not sure many predicted he would be. Out of the strikers we have, when we play 2 upfront i would always want one of them to be Kuyt.

He is just works a lot harder and is always looking to create something. We do however need all-out traditional striker. One that is super selfish and super clinical in front of goal. Don't any of our strikers (excepting Fowler) fits that bill.

You were not trying to bag Kuyt, but i would like to say anyway that he is a fine addition to the squad and one of our better signings recently.

[Leonmc0708]

Just before the Watford game the other day I was having a brief chat with Dawson in the Watford thread. I was saying, that I would of liked to see Crouch and Bellamy play upfront together for that match. Instead of Bellamy and Kuyt, who Dawson would of prefered, funnily enough we both got our wishes as Rafa played three upfront.

That was a good result for us, even if the performance was slightly sterile, but I'd of happily taken that result and performance given the week we've had. After watching the game I honestly thought Crouch was the most liveliest of the three forwards and probably our best player on the day. And of course he scored two goals aswell.

I know in that game Kuyt dropped off Bellamy and Crouch to come deep and almost played a link man at times. But he also does that when playing in a pair upfront, leaving his partner most of the time to sniff out the chances alone. Obviously Rafa likes this about him, personally I dont. When I was brought up playing football as a striker, the main aim was to be selfish infront of goal, play off the last defender and bag a hatfull of goals. If you didnt come up with the goals on a consistent basis, you'd find yourself warming the bench for the next game. How the game has changed, in terms of what managers expect from their players and in this instance their strikers. But it has not changed the fact that goals win you games and for me and for all his starts this season Kuyt hasnt done this. I'd happily have his fellow countryman RVN in the Liverpool side over him, because he is an old fashioned type of center-forward who gets goals.

All our strikers, mainly Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch all have the same ethic as in they'll work hard and chase down defenders. Which is great, but at the end of the day in my book especially its goals that count. And looking at recent displays, or displays this season its apparent to me that out of those three Kuyt is the least likeliest to find the onion bag.
But yet he seems to be Rafa's first choice of strikers on the teamsheet every week. And TBH its left me puzzled to say the least. Has he continuously picked him, is it because he's rated Kuyt ever since he was at Valencia ? Will he not rotate him, like most of the other players because he was a big summer signing, and cant justify it ? Or is simply because he thinks he's doing enough in the side at the moment to warrant a start ?

If the latter is true, think of the games we've dominated and havent won because of our lack of clinical finnishing. Where if we would of had your Robbie Fowler type of strikers there, or even Robbie himself we may well of got more points from games. Actually the most recent game where we  didnt convert our goals into chances was probably at Blackburn on boxing day. But it was Crouch who failed to convert on numerous occasions,granted. But at least he's taking up those positions to begin with, which is just as important. Kuyts not doing that as such, so effectively we have only on forward out of two, who seem to be looking to score goals, either Bellamy when paired off with Kuyt or Crouch when paired off with Kuyt.

I'm not bashing Kuyt here let me tell you, but like I said in my mind obviously not Rafa's strikers are there to get you goals like Rush, Owen, Fowler, Shearer and Linekar did for there teams respectively. I just think Rafa shouldnt pick Kuyt game after game if he's rotating the majority of players around him on a regular basis. The only player who hasnt really been rotated this season is Finnan and thats due to the fact we've got knowone who can fill in. But the same cant be said for our strikers, so Rafa rotate all FOUR of your strikers, not just leave one position free to fight it out between three. Hell play Robbie more, the guy deserves more than five minutes at the end of every other premiership match way play.

If anyone here thinks what Kuyts doing game in and game out is enough well I'm sorry your wrong. All of fans might say he's good at droppping off and linking up midfield and defence. Bo.llox he's gotta do more than that IMO. And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

A classic example of the advantage of going the game over watching the highlights on MOTD.

[66-1112520797]

Just before the Watford game the other day I was having a brief chat with Dawson in the Watford thread. I was saying, that I would of liked to see Crouch and Bellamy play upfront together for that match. Instead of Bellamy and Kuyt, who Dawson would of prefered, funnily enough we both got our wishes as Rafa played three upfront.

That was a good result for us, even if the performance was slightly sterile, but I'd of happily taken that result and performance given the week we've had. After watching the game I honestly thought Crouch was the most liveliest of the three forwards and probably our best player on the day. And of course he scored two goals aswell.

I know in that game Kuyt dropped off Bellamy and Crouch to come deep and almost played a link man at times. But he also does that when playing in a pair upfront, leaving his partner most of the time to sniff out the chances alone. Obviously Rafa likes this about him, personally I dont. When I was brought up playing football as a striker, the main aim was to be selfish infront of goal, play off the last defender and bag a hatfull of goals. If you didnt come up with the goals on a consistent basis, you'd find yourself warming the bench for the next game. How the game has changed, in terms of what managers expect from their players and in this instance their strikers. But it has not changed the fact that goals win you games and for me and for all his starts this season Kuyt hasnt done this. I'd happily have his fellow countryman RVN in the Liverpool side over him, because he is an old fashioned type of center-forward who gets goals.

All our strikers, mainly Bellamy, Kuyt and Crouch all have the same ethic as in they'll work hard and chase down defenders. Which is great, but at the end of the day in my book especially its goals that count. And looking at recent displays, or displays this season its apparent to me that out of those three Kuyt is the least likeliest to find the onion bag.
But yet he seems to be Rafa's first choice of strikers on the teamsheet every week. And TBH its left me puzzled to say the least. Has he continuously picked him, is it because he's rated Kuyt ever since he was at Valencia ? Will he not rotate him, like most of the other players because he was a big summer signing, and cant justify it ? Or is simply because he thinks he's doing enough in the side at the moment to warrant a start ?

If the latter is true, think of the games we've dominated and havent won because of our lack of clinical finnishing. Where if we would of had your Robbie Fowler type of strikers there, or even Robbie himself we may well of got more points from games. Actually the most recent game where we  didnt convert our goals into chances was probably at Blackburn on boxing day. But it was Crouch who failed to convert on numerous occasions,granted. But at least he's taking up those positions to begin with, which is just as important. Kuyts not doing that as such, so effectively we have only on forward out of two, who seem to be looking to score goals, either Bellamy when paired off with Kuyt or Crouch when paired off with Kuyt.

I'm not bashing Kuyt here let me tell you, but like I said in my mind obviously not Rafa's strikers are there to get you goals like Rush, Owen, Fowler, Shearer and Linekar did for there teams respectively. I just think Rafa shouldnt pick Kuyt game after game if he's rotating the majority of players around him on a regular basis. The only player who hasnt really been rotated this season is Finnan and thats due to the fact we've got knowone who can fill in. But the same cant be said for our strikers, so Rafa rotate all FOUR of your strikers, not just leave one position free to fight it out between three. Hell play Robbie more, the guy deserves more than five minutes at the end of every other premiership match way play.

If anyone here thinks what Kuyts doing game in and game out is enough well I'm sorry your wrong. All of fans might say he's good at droppping off and linking up midfield and defence. Bo.llox he's gotta do more than that IMO. And infact he shouldnt be needed or asked to do that to the extent he's not finding goal scoring opportunities, when you have players behind him like Gerrard and Alonso who can link up midfield to attack, thats not the concern in my mind. Scoring goals is.

A classic example of the advantage of going the game over watching the highlights on MOTD.

Of course its better to see them live, but I have been able to watch the whole 90 mins of games this season, not MoTD.

And like most all I can do is judge from the T.V screens.

[The Manhattan Project]

I just think it's cool we have a player called "Dirk"

[supersub]

And like most all I can do is judge from the T.V screens.

   mark lawrenson has joined the forum

[112-1077774096]

And like most all I can do is judge from the T.V screens.

   mark lawrenson has joined the forum

does that mean my opinions dont matter also as i am 7000 miles away     

[Rafa D]

I have to disagree with you here mate. Dirk has started more games than Bellamy and Crouch and it does seem that Rafa does favour him but I think he justifies his selection in our team.

  First and foremost he is a workhorse, but to me that means he is likely to score more goals. The amount of effort he puts into every game shows how much he wants to succeed here. He is probably has the highest work rate out of our squad with the chasing down and tracking back he does. The fans can see how much he works and it s greatly appreciated the work load he puts in for the team.  However I think there is more to his game than that and I think there is more to come. He has showed glimpses of what he can do on his debut, against Arsenal for a bit and Bolton on New Years Day. Against Bolton he looked frightening when he was running at them and its something I want to see more of from him.

  When we signed him he was scoring for fun in the Dutch Leagues and although we cannot really use that as a bench mark due to the strength comparisions in the respective leagues I still think it shows the goals are there. Martin Jol described him as a "20/20" player - because he is the type of player to score 20 goals and get 20 assists. I cannot see him getting 20 assists but the 20 goals is a possibility. He is currently on 8 goals this season, not much but the team did not exactly hit the high notes in the first half of the season. If he keeps applying himself like he has been doing I can see him gets 20 goals.

  I accept he is not an out and out striker in the mould of Fowler, Owen, Shearer etc and he is different to Crouch and Bellamy, Bellamy is pace, Crouch is his height and his hold up ability and Kuyt is the work horse. But its a nice option to have to have.

I am not one to use stats as they can be misleading but here's the goal to game ratio:

GOALS SCORED PER GAME
Peter Crouch .41
Robbie Fowler .38
Dirk Kuyt .29
Craig Bellamy .26
Steven Gerrard MBE .23

  His .29 goals a game is not what we would like but I believe it will get better. Shearer's record was a goal every 1.97 games. We need it to be closer to that. He is new and although some people don't buy into the " he needs time to gel and settle down - new country etc" - I do. I think it makes a big difference to the player if he has to move countries - new culture, new language new suroundings etc. Bellamy and Crouch don't have this problem. Also the illness to his father might have disrupted his settling in.

All in all, he's done well, the fans love him and he is trying his best - the question is, Is his best good enough?

I think it is. He's done well but there's more to come

[babu]

does that mean my opinions dont matter also as i am 7000 miles away     

your opinions have never mattered, distance is irrelevant.   



 

that was for the 'slapping me good looking' comment a couple months back, not as funny but what can you do?

[112-1077774096]

does that mean my opinions dont matter also as i am 7000 miles away     

your opinions have never mattered, distance is irrelevant.   



 

that was for the 'slapping me good looking' comment a couple months back, not as funny but what can you do?

but you knew it was a joke, there is no possible way that i could slap you that hard

[babu]

bastard 

[dawson99]

so what are we saying? that crouch bellamy and kuyt all have different attributes that add to the team as a whole?

i thought that was a good thing.