Liverpool FC Forum

[PabloAimar]

it's easier to apply one's method when you don't have to translate it from Halmstads to Malmo, to Orebo to Neuchatel Xamax, to the Swiss national team.

[Octsky]

if i am not wrong, the old arsenal before wenger used to play this formation.
the flexiblity in switching between attack and defense is the advantage of this formation.

we looked solid with Carra in CB, totally contained drogba and traitor.
Kelly complement this formation well as he is fast and can attack/defend, when we get a proper left back, i dont really see Johnson breaking in to first team ahead of Kelly.

the misconception of this formation is that it may look defensive but it is not, we controlled the game against chelski and attack with conviction.

[DaMo]

I wouldn't say that it's a misconception, really. I mean, it is what it is. It's a throwback to the mid-80s-90s when packing the defence (and building moves from the back) was an emerging trend just like packing the midfield is nowadays with all these 4-5-1 variants, albeit to a much lesser extent since the vast majority of division 1 teams were still playing a 4-4-2 (at least over here), unlike now. Still, for all intents and purposes, a 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 system is taylor made to frustrate (and counter) a 4-4-2. It isn't an attacking system in nature, hence how 3 centerbacks stay back instead of 2, as well as the fact that it's the wingbacks who provide the width. Furthermore, a team's attacking intent relies on its wingbacks having the workrate to constantly bomb up and down the flanks, attacking the byline when possible, but tracking all the way back to pick up opposition wingers takes priority, and that's why it's never really  a "back 3" in practice. They can't consistently provide the same contributions as a winger in addition to their defensive responsibilities. It's just not practical.

Personally, I don't care how attacking/defensive a system is if it gets results. It has been effective and the players seem to be taking to it well, especially our defence. It has got results and will no doubt continue to do so when it's used. I'd say that's all that matters at the end of the day.

[Scottbot]

biggest change for me is the lads are now playing with some confidence and composure now. It's like they are finally backing their own ability at last after a torrid first half of the season. We're playing higher up the pitch and we're keeping the ball a lot better when we win it back. 48% of the possession yesterday is not a bad slice of the pie away to the champiopns is it.

[aCe']

It's worked to near perfection in the last couple of games but you have to wonder if we'll continue playing it against sides that play a wider 4-5-1 ...

The main problem with the formation is that with 3 at the back you're always missing the extra body in the opponent's half.. We've seen both Agger and Skrtel push up against Stoke to press higher and contribute to our attacking play which somewhat balances things out... Against sides with better wide players though we could really struggle with this setup... 

A pairing of Sagna/Walcott, Evra/Giggs, Kolorov/Silva..etc will always get the better of the one wingback especially when the opposition plays a direct fast paced style..

Another issue with the formation is that the lone striker has to be able to bring down the ball, hold possession well and bring others into play... Kuyt was excellent in the first game and did well considering the circumstances in the second.. I fully expect Carroll to make the position his own when he returns from injury but where exactly does that leave Meireles ? He's been our in form player so far this season and moving him from his position is a big gamble imo..

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

How I fell back in love with Liverpool FC - by Anne Todd (nee Cummings), the first woman ECHO sports writer
Feb 7 2011

Anne Cummings was the Liverpool ECHO's first female sports reporter back in the 1960s and 70s

Something amazing happened on Sunday night: I fell in love with Liverpool FC all over again , after I dumped them years ago for not turning me on any more.

My love affair with the Reds began when Shankly ran the show and there were players like Hansen and Yeats, Tommy the ‘Flying Pig’ Lawrence, hunky Roger Hunt, twinkle toed winger Peter Thompson, sweet little Cally, and the Anfield Iron Tommy Smith, who would today make John Terry look like Graham Norton in a tu-tu.

Then there was the loveable scally Terry McDermott, and boyish Joey Jones, who never stopped being amazed and grateful at playing for such a club, and the little cherub Sammy Lee, who had his own Kop song: “He’s small, he’s round, he bounces on the ground, Sammy Lee, Sammy Lee…”

And then, of course, came the sublime Kenny Dalglish, a magician on the ball who scored all those mouth-watering goals that lit everything up and made you glad to be alive and at a football match in Liverpool.


By this time I was the Liverpool Echo’s first woman sports writer, and watched games from the Press box and went to press conferences afterwards. I’ve never known such a modest hero as Kenny.

When you could coax him to say anything - and you could make out what he reluctantly mumbled in that Glaswegian accent - it would be totally lacking in self- glorification. It was like pulling teeth. It went along the lines of; “It’s a team game, not about me” and “The ball came across and I just hit it.” That’s what he said after I’d just seen him score a brilliant hat-trick.

But the point is, he meant it. And when he scored ,he didn’t do that slidey thing along the ground, kiss his shirt badge, or wedding ring, make funny gestures to someone unseen, fall in a girly heap with his team mates, take off his shirt ,or run into the crowd. Can you imagine it? Kenny? No, he just wanted to get on with the game.

And can you see him having a wax, or a facial, carrying a big toilet bag to games, wearing poncey clothes, like a snood, encouraging WAGS, being photographed in Daniel Craig Speedos in Dubai on a beach? Nah. No way, Jose. Not Kenny.
Now he’s back at Anfield again as the boss, and it’s like the good times are back. Liverpool, on the evidence of that glorious win against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, are like the team I first fell in love with all those years ago.

Why? Because they always gave 100 per-cent throughout the game. They pulled on that famous red shirt and it meant something.

They worked for each other. They were a TEAM. The word Kenny always stressed when a player. And I was proud of them.

I had got fed up with pouting, posing prima donnas who only turned it on when they felt like it. Torres, whose gifts I obviously appreciated immensely, ended up annoying the hell out of me with his sulky, selfish behaviour, while Kuyt worked his socks off, running around non-stop like a Duracell bunny on speed, doing all the donkey work for him.


I love Dirk Kuyt. |To me he represents the never-say-die spirit of Liverpool, like Gerrard and Carragher. And young Kelly! What a gem he is. And how wonderful to have such a home-grown talent in the team.

I know you can’t live in the past and times change. I suppose waxing and bling and private jets and mansions and mega bucks for wages are here to stay.

But if Liverpool can reproduce that winning formula based on team work, with everyone working for each other, with pride, and commitment, can it be wrong to enjoy that formula from the good old days?

So welcome back King Kenny. The best of luck in all you are doing. And welcome back the Liverpool of my youth. I hope it’s here to stay. If so, I’ll be a supporter again.

[DaMo]

Re: aCe'

Yup, I would be amazed if we stuck with it against 4-5-1 systems because it would just be overrun. If you think about how effective a 4-5-1 is against a 4-4-2 simply because it has 1 extra man in the middle, it doesn't take much imagination to ponder about what happens with a system which would at times have 2 less players contesting the midfield battle. To be outnumbered when attacking *and* outnumbered in midfield during transitions is too much, and that's why the popularity of such systems took a nosedive in proportion to the rise of the 4-5-1. Stoke may not have been able to exploit the system when they played 1 upfront against us, but other teams will, especially now that they'd be prepared to play against 5 a tthe back. Stoke didn't know what hit them on the day and failed to adapt, while Chelsea had no choice but to play 2 uptop due to the need to play Torres. The system would have struggled far too much against their more familiar 4-5-1 / 4-3-3, though. For that reason, I really don't believe Kenny would have used it under such circumstances.

[stmichael]

It's worked to near perfection in the last couple of games but you have to wonder if we'll continue playing it against sides that play a wider 4-5-1 ...

The main problem with the formation is that with 3 at the back you're always missing the extra body in the opponent's half.. We've seen both Agger and Skrtel push up against Stoke to press higher and contribute to our attacking play which somewhat balances things out... Against sides with better wide players though we could really struggle with this setup... 

A pairing of Sagna/Walcott, Evra/Giggs, Kolorov/Silva..etc will always get the better of the one wingback especially when the opposition plays a direct fast paced style..

Another issue with the formation is that the lone striker has to be able to bring down the ball, hold possession well and bring others into play... Kuyt was excellent in the first game and did well considering the circumstances in the second.. I fully expect Carroll to make the position his own when he returns from injury but where exactly does that leave Meireles ? He's been our in form player so far this season and moving him from his position is a big gamble imo..

Good post. As Scottbot was saying, it was clear to see that when Kenny took over we were woeful, lacked confidence and desperately needed tightening up at the back. We also needed more width in attack but don't have any decent wingers to speak of so wingbacks seemed like a logical solution for the time being, at least until the results improved. Four clean sheets later and the confidence is clearly back.

[CardinalRed]

What may turn out to be the best of all Kenny's tactical moves is the decision to bring Steve Clarke in...... Back when Mourinho was at Chelski it was Clarkey (hope he doesn't mind that!!) who marshalled the defence and concentrated on making them the miserly unit that they became, with Carra pulling the strings on field and Clarke masterminding their progress off it he complements Kenny'd undoubted expertise with forwards don't ya think....?


                                                                       

[Penguins]

Well, the formation with 3 at the back really helps to stabilize the defense.

We have struggled with 2 in central defense in the season for many reasons(not good enough, Johnson to offensive etc) so this formation look really nice.

I agree with Bad bob on how the formation might look but for one thing.

For a few reasons I do think Kenny will continue with Kelly at wing back and Johnson to the left.

I do think Kenny rates Skrtel higher than Kelly as a CB right now.
Kelly is no slough as he has some pace and decent enough in all areas to be a wing back, albeit a defensive one.
Aurelio is just too injury prone and will not become a mainstay in the team, which means switching around the team all the time everytime Aurelio is out is not something I would recommend.

I do hope Maxi and Kuyt are the first 2 out when Suarez and Carroll comes in.

[Scottbot]

You got to hand it to Kenny, most of the media and a good few reds thought the game might have passed him by and that he was a jurassic 4-4-2 manager but nothing could be further from the truth based on what we've seen so far. Most of us were completely perplexed by the line-up for the Stoke game in mid-week, 6 defenders in the team we all screamed, Glen Jonn's been playing the last month at LB and then left wing back, he's been playing Kuyt up-front on his own (which I don't like) and it's working, he's playing Mereilles just off the front man (again i didn't think that was his position but what do i know!) and just about everything he's tried seems to be working. I think many of us were clasmouring for Suarez to get a start against Chelsea yesterday but the lad didn't even get on and we walked out of there with a double over the champs.

[stmichael]

Going forward under Kenny it'll be interesting to see whether we play with an out and out defensive midfielder or not. Now that we're looking to use possession and keep it for long periods, do we need a player in the team whose sole role is to win back the ball and pass it short like Mascherano? Lucas seems to be doing fine in his job acting as a kind of deep-lying playmaker (albeit nowhere near Xabi's level - but who is) and also helping out a lot defensively.

[Kenny Kan]

Sunday's line-up worked well and a definite shake up has occurred at the club and Kenny is stamping his name all over it. I was never a real fan of 3 at the back but watching us against Chelsea dispursed most subjectivities I had about this formation.

If we take out Maxi and Kuyt and replace them with better players, Suarez and or Caroll we may run with this for a while, it's a winning formula and so far it's looking good, long may it continue.

Note; I think both Agger and Skertel will benefit that little more having Carragher alongside them barking and organising things, both seem tentative with this.

[stmichael]

Excellent article:

How might Kenny Dalglish set up Liverpool?

Having been out of the game for a decade, what Kenny Dalglish will do at Liverpool remains to be seen. One of the main arguments against him coming back was that football has changed since the King left Anfield in 1991, which is true, but it nevertheless neglects one of the things we can be certain of Dalglish as a manager: he is pragmatic. Some of his methods might well need updating, but he’s unlikely to be stuck in his ways, instead looking to adapt to his players.

At Liverpool, he opened up the team, bringing in John Barnes, Peter Beardsley, Ray Houghton and John Aldridge into Liverpool’s pass-and-move style, while at Blackburn he played with two target men in Alan Shearer and out-and-out wingers in Jason Wilcox and Stuart Ripley. His failure at Newcastle was in turning them from entertaining to boring to shore up their defence, much like Roy Hodgson at Liverpool.

With this in mind, it’s also worth pointing out that he’s not completely deserted the game, he’s no doubt been observing for the last decade and has worked at Liverpool since 2009.

Seeing Hodgson’s lack of success with his deep and passive style, you would expect Dalglish to adopt a similar approach to the last time he managed Liverpool, pressing high up the pitch and passing short, something the squad is perfectly suited to due to Rafa Benitez’s beliefs.

The bigger headache for Dalglish will be the shape to choose. During his first spell at Liverpool, Dalglish played a 4-4-2 with one pacey out-and-out winger and one tucked-in on the opposite side, while playing a withdrawn forward like himself behind a striker, and he appears to still be a big fan of asymmetric systems.

This could see a return to the system Benitez used in his title-challenging 2008/09 season (fig. 1), as the only real difference between that and a 4-2-3-1 is the player who operates in the hole – midfielder and it’s a 4-2-3-1, forward and it’s a 4-4-2. Albert Riera provided width on the left and former striker Dirk Kuyt tended to come inside while Alvaro Arbeloa provided width on the right. With today’s squad, Riera’s role could be given to one of two pacy wide players who have struggled to make an impact at Liverpool, Ryan Babel and Milan Jovanovic, Kuyt would fight it out with Maxi Rodriguez and Glen Johnson replaces Arbeloa.

However, should Dalglish want to narrow the midfield further, making possession football easier, he could shift Steven Gerrard to the right midfield role he often operated in during the beginning of Benitez’s reign and bring Joe Cole into the playmaker role, although doubts over his intelligence and the trequartista position itself suggests it might not be a great idea.

Dalglish has stated that he believes Gerrard’s “best position is centre midfield” which could see him continue with Hodgson’s 4-4-2. However, breaking up the miraculously quick-to-click partnership of Raul Meireles and Lucas Leiva for someone who simply doesn’t have the awareness or decision-making to play there (see his positioning for Gareth Barry’s goal in the 3-0 drubbing away to Man City) would most likely be a mistake.

On the other hand, Dalglish says this is on the basis of having “Gareth Barry behind him as cover” and is about picking the system that “will get the best out of him.” Leaving one man against against two or three in midfield, like the screenshot below, isn’t recommended as it’s simpler to pass around, something Dalglish points out in another aticle.

With Lucas and Meireles arguably Liverpool’s best players this season and Gerrard untrustworthy without significant cover, it would make sense for Dalglish to opt for a 4-3-3. It’s a formation that naturally lends itself to possession football and wing-play, both common conventions of Dalglish’s sides, while allowing Gerrard to play in central midfield and link up with Fernando Torres without leaving huge gaps.

Judging by his comments on what Frank Lampard brings to Chelsea’s attack,  Dalglish sees this kind of dynamic midfielder as very important and should things not go well early on, he may well opt to play him in an advanced position, reuniting Meireles and Lucas as the holding midfielders in a 4-2-3-1.

His comments on Joe Cole would appear to suggest he would like him on the left, although this could just as easily be Maxi Rodriguez or to a lesser extent Kuyt, while he would like Johnson to be able to do “what he does best, getting forward.” It could be that Dalglish does what some Liverpool fans have wanted for a while: playing Johnson on the wing. He is quick, something that Dalglish has noted, and is obviously good going forward. Using him as a winger also lessens the effect of his poor defensive form, although it is often overlooked that Johnson looked good defensively early on in his Liverpool career when Benitez was pressing high up the pitch, as hopefully Dalglish will do.

An outside bet could be that, with Dalglish’s academy experience, we could see an increase in the number of youth players given a chance in the first team. Dani Pacheco is one of the more obvious candidates to take the step up and could make that playmaker position his own, although that doesn’t solve the Gerrard problem.

Regardless of the shape he chooses, as long as Dalglish presses higher up the pitch, he should fare better than Hodgson. Except for Sotirios Kyrgiakos and Jamie Carragher, none of Liverpool’s players suited Hodgson’s style which still makes him such a puzzling appointment, so, in theory, Dalglish should succeed simply by not being like Hodgson. Providing it is only until the end of the season it should be a brilliant appointment – he doesn’t need to be world class, he just needs to be competent for Liverpool to improve, anything else is a bonus. Long live the King.

http://www.holdingmidfield.com/?p=191

[Santa]

just watch The King's Speech...me think they should give Kenny the Oscar