Liverpool FC Forum

[Rorschach26]

So you don't think it was a mistake to sell Keane in the middle of the season?

nope collateral damage

[Effes]

Bruce! Dont let me down!

[redbeergoggles]

I'll just interrupt you two fishwives; nearly at the bottom of a fine Spanish Red from Markseys.

Playing ELO's greatest hits   Life aint so bad.

Last train to London is the best ,anyway your drunk 
Ive got work in the morning ,and your talking sense.   

[redbeergoggles]

Is it a Scouse thing fella ,because you didnt get on with Leon either did you ? seem to remember quite a few spats between you two .

I always got on very well with Leon, we disagreed at times but then again people who are passionate about football often do. If he ever comes back just ask him. So don't think its just because you are a scouser that I don't like you. I wouldn't like you no matter where you came from. 

No! people who are passionate about football go the match fella.    Not sit in their room and talk a good game 

[account deleted by request]

Is it a Scouse thing fella ,because you didnt get on with Leon either did you ? seem to remember quite a few spats between you two .

I always got on very well with Leon, we disagreed at times but then again people who are passionate about football often do. If he ever comes back just ask him. So don't think its just because you are a scouser that I don't like you. I wouldn't like you no matter where you came from. 

No! people who are passionate about football go the match fella.    Not sit in their room and talk a good game 

I was going the game before you were out of nappies (and no I don't mean last week) I went my first game in 1968 and can count the games I have been to at Anfield in the hundreds. I have also followed Liverpool away, to Leeds, Man u, Man city , Wolves, Wembley, Blackpool, Bolton etc etc. on numerous occasions.


BTW some of the most passionate fans on this board have never managed to get to a game, that doesn't mean they are any less passionate, just not as lucky.

[Effes]

I have also followed Liverpool away, to Leeds, Man u, Man city , Wolves, Wembley, Blackpool, Bolton etc etc. on numerous occasions.

Did we beat them? 

[account deleted by request]

I have also followed Liverpool away, to Leeds, Man u, Man city , Wolves, Wembley, Blackpool, Bolton etc etc. on numerous occasions.

Did we beat them? 

Nah mate, we drew 0-0 

[Sabre]

Bruce! Dont let me down!

You were calling me? 

BTW mate, that spanish red wine from Markseys, where is markseys? not in Spain! you mean Marques de Caceres wine mate?

[Effes]

Bruce! Dont let me down!

You were calling me? 

BTW mate, that spanish red wine from Markseys, where is markseys? not in Spain! you mean Marques de Caceres wine mate?

Nah mate, Marks and Spencers - like El Court Inglesis.

My 2 bro's were working as teachers in Madrid; and the fella who owned it did a runner, without paying them.

So they were left in Madrid with no money, so they decided to rob food from El Court Inglesis.

When they met up, my older (more responsible brother) had robbed  bread, the younger one just showed a bottle of Jack Daniels!

  You can imagine how the night ended.

[Sabre]

Well done, although El Corte Ingles isn't probaly the safest place to make a Robin Hood.

Sorry to hear that they were let down by the owners, unbelieavable.

I guess they could have got help from institutions or charity (you can have a shelter and a dinner for free in winter for free provided you don't appear in the shelter drank or causing trouble), but then, it wouldn't be as fan as borrowing a Jack Daniels and drinking it 

[Lando_Griffin]

That's a good reply too. Don't take too seriously my "undermining", it's just that when I see someone too sure of what he says, I can't help but banter a bit with him and send a few torpedoes to his self confidence.

Now, to the core of the disagreement

The plot to which you cannot see any explanation is based on fact. Neither of the men involved are (Parry at the end of the season) involved in LFC. Unless it is just a coincidence...?

Yes, it's a fact that Keane and Parry are out of the club. The difference between you and me, is that I'm not that quick to stablish links between the facts. Not that I'm not quick enough to spot the link, of course I consider it, I'm just not as sure as you are to stablish a link. As there are multiple interpretations. For instance Parry might be out of the club because Rafa, I can see that, but Keane being out hasn't to be linked with parry being out. It may be simply that the player wants to play more. Your interpretation, is just one of the many possible.

Which leads me to your next interesting point

Which leads me on to your next point. I too am a football fan who is in fine mental health (?). I consider myself very able to grasp the subtleties of management in elite or any other standard of football. Of course we are not always privvy to some information, but the clues are there for anyone to see in the media, body language, things left unsaid, mind games, decisions made etc. I'm sure if you tried hard enough, or wanted to, you could grasp them as well. It's not so different to politics really.

Aha. This is where I'm humble and admit that the media, body language, things left unsaid, are not enough to make definitive conclussions about what's going on in Melwood.

I even have the advantage of being Spanish and understanding what Rafa means with many expressions which he translates literally... but all that info is not enough for me.

Because I'm not able to watch the signs? Of course I'm able to watch, but I'm skeptical about it being enough to know what's going on.

If I was able to be at Melwood every training session, at least from outside, but watching the quarrels, the discussions, how the people train, how the manager talks to the lads after the games, then yes, I'd be more sure of what's going on.

But the art of interpreting body language and words is not easy. I think it will lead to error to you, to me, and whoever tries that art.

Please Sir Roger, sorry if I undermined too much, it was nothing more than bantering. 

I don't take your 'undermining' too seriously and welcome anyone to disagree or even prove me wrong. I will always take criticism with good humour especially of my fellow reds. Torpedo away...


In answer to your points
Of course it is open to interpretation whether there is a link between Parry and Keane leaving. But the link is Rafa, and for me he was responsible for the situation. I tend not to put too much faith in coincidences merely because I am sceptical and cynical due to my experiences.

I happen to be involved in the theatre and drama and use body language either literally or as an example of how to read it etc in my work all the time. It is a hobby to me and I have paid particular interest (football wise) to Ferguson as he has been the master of mind games for the last 20 odd years. I do feel though that he has met his match in Signor Benitez (about time too) I am not saying that this is enough to tell what's happening all the time. It's not a science. Nor can I say that I can predict the future with it. But I can generally tell if people are not being honest or if they are uncomfortable with the situation theyre in even if they dont say so.
I am not even saying I get everything right all the time (just most). But what I am saying is that if you are open minded and look again at certain things again you might be surprised to see that what you thought was going on and what actually went on were two different things.

By the way this is not an attack on Rafa. I am merely pointing out what I believe happened with regards to Keane.
If Rafa wins the league without him he is a genius and was right all along.
But if he doesn't

Are you suggesting that Keane's continued involvement with the team would have been the difference between us winning the league and not?

Dear me...

[Lando_Griffin]

I think it's time that the Rafa-bashers just accepted that Keane was a mardy, jumped-up little squirt who believed himself to be better than he really was. He couldn't accept the bit-part role his talent deserved, and stropped his way out of the club.

My guess is that he read about Tottenham's interest in the papers, and this got a few texts and calls from his old teammates and Redders himself going, and it culminated in him demanding to leave at the last minute.

I do not for one second accept the notion that Rafa booted him out on a whim.

[SundanceKid]

Rafa made a huge mistake selling him when we had no quality cover in the striking department.

Who fecking cares? We have more goals than the rest of the league. You should be grateful the team doesn't have to burden Torres with the responsibility of winning every game.

[Sir Roger]

I think it's time that the Rafa-bashers just accepted that Keane was a mardy, jumped-up little squirt who believed himself to be better than he really was. He couldn't accept the bit-part role his talent deserved, and stropped his way out of the club.

My guess is that he read about Tottenham's interest in the papers, and this got a few texts and calls from his old teammates and Redders himself going, and it culminated in him demanding to leave at the last minute.

I do not for one second accept the notion that Rafa booted him out on a whim.

If you are referring to me as a "Rafa basher" because I question some of his logic and decisions I accept that. If you are calling me that name because I dont like him or want him out I do not accept it. It is a bit of a harsh and misleading title in the first place but I can live with it because I dont see anything wrong in disagreeing with someone for the right reasons.
Like I have said before the are subtleties that some dont seem to understand. Not everything is black and white: For and against, good or bad.
Rafa apologists seem to want to defend anything and everything he says or does, no matter what, and attack those who either point out his mistakes or even voice their concerns about his judgement.
I dont believe its healthy to merely agree with everything a person says without question. Nodding dogs are no use to anyone.
It could be argued that Rafa has listened to the things the likes of me has said and taken it on board which is why we are doing as well as we are at the minute. On the other hand he might not listen to anyone and is a stubborn, ignorant, arrogant man who does what he wants, when he wants, regardless of anyones advice or opinion. Who knows?
I give him credit for being an incredibly intelligent and powerful man who can manipulate the situations he and those around him are in. Which is why I believe the keane saga turned out like it did.
You may want to simplify it by just saying "keane was shi.te and had to go" Thats up to you. I credit Rafa with dealing with the situation his way and eventually getting what he wanted. Not really "Rafa bashing" but there you go

[Sabre]

I think it's time that the Rafa-bashers just accepted that Keane was a mardy, jumped-up little squirt who believed himself to be better than he really was. He couldn't accept the bit-part role his talent deserved, and stropped his way out of the club.

My guess is that he read about Tottenham's interest in the papers, and this got a few texts and calls from his old teammates and Redders himself going, and it culminated in him demanding to leave at the last minute.

I do not for one second accept the notion that Rafa booted him out on a whim.

If you are referring to me as a "Rafa basher" because I question some of his logic and decisions I accept that. If you are calling me that name because I dont like him or want him out I do not accept it. It is a bit of a harsh and misleading title in the first place but I can live with it because I dont see anything wrong in disagreeing with someone for the right reasons.
Like I have said before the are subtleties that some dont seem to understand. Not everything is black and white: For and against, good or bad.
Rafa apologists seem to want to defend anything and everything he says or does, no matter what, and attack those who either point out his mistakes or even voice their concerns about his judgement.
I dont believe its healthy to merely agree with everything a person says without question. Nodding dogs are no use to anyone.
It could be argued that Rafa has listened to the things the likes of me has said and taken it on board which is why we are doing as well as we are at the minute. On the other hand he might not listen to anyone and is a stubborn, ignorant, arrogant man who does what he wants, when he wants, regardless of anyones advice or opinion. Who knows?
I give him credit for being an incredibly intelligent and powerful man who can manipulate the situations he and those around him are in. Which is why I believe the keane saga turned out like it did.
You may want to simplify it by just saying "keane was shi.te and had to go" Thats up to you. I credit Rafa with dealing with the situation his way and eventually getting what he wanted. Not really "Rafa bashing" but there you go

Here's a lil tip jay jay, If you don't want to be labeled as basher, don't put labels like apologists yourself.

Also, stop saying that people don't understand, because the fact is, that from where I sit, you look pretty clueless about football. You don't seem to understand things that are pretty obvious to me.

I'm sure you'll agree that if I repeat the above paragraph every post  it can reach to be tiring no?

Then, stop doing it. Sooner better than later. Thank you.

P.S. It's ok you don't seem to understand the basics of debating with a lot of people and respect their opinions, but I'm an optimist guy, and I think you're clever enough to rectify: don't tell the people that they don't seem to understand