Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

I never rated Keane ,but I thought he showed a lot of humility when he left us in not slating the manager or the club ,It seems now he was just biding his time (disappointed and not just in his goalscoring capabilities ).

So can I take it then that you've never slagged off an ex-boss or exteacher etc. If that is true then you are saintly my friend because I can assure you everyone else in the world does so why shouldn't Keane?
If he has been screwed around by Rafa then why shouldn't he be allowed to have a say.
You see this is the kind of double standards that annoys me on this forum, Rafa leaks anything and everything to the news and that is OK but if Keane comes out and quite politely points out that he didn't see eye to eye with Rafa, which in all honstey comes as no big revelation to me, then he gets called a w@nker.
It must be great to be so fair and level headed as the vocal minority on this site!

You were moaning like chuff when Rafa had a moan to the press.

Hypocrisy?

[Sir Roger]

If keane had played well and scored goals and done what he did at spurs he would still be here now but he didnt at the end of the day - yeah he scored the odd goal towards the end but im sorry i never thought he was the missing link for us .

It wouldnt have mattered if Keane had scored loads of goals
Rafa didnt want him. Full stop.
It would have made it more awkward to get rid of him. Which is why Rafa treated him the way he did. So he would throw the toys out of the pram therefore making Rafa look blameless.
Keane had two choices: Stay and be at best a bit part player or leave and go back to spurs

[Sabre]

If keane had played well and scored goals and done what he did at spurs he would still be here now but he didnt at the end of the day - yeah he scored the odd goal towards the end but im sorry i never thought he was the missing link for us .

It wouldnt have mattered if Keane had scored loads of goals
Rafa didnt want him. Full stop.
It would have made it more awkward to get rid of him. Which is why Rafa treated him the way he did. So he would throw the toys out of the pram therefore making Rafa look blameless.
Keane had two choices: Stay and be at best a bit part player or leave and go back to spurs

Make up your mind.

First you say that Rafa didn't want him.

Second you say Keane had two options. If Rafa didn't want him he wouldn't have options. Simple logic easily understandable by someone so brilliant like you.

But please, keep opening your mouth, the more you open it, the more Rafa fúcks it up. Bring that stuff, Sir Roger

Rafa wanted Keane here, perhaps he was fuming about how much Parry paid for him, but Keane wouldn't be here if Rafa didn't want him.

But Rafa won't treat Keane as a world class player when Keane is nowhere near a world class player (except in what we paid for him which was a lot). People hurry to blame Rafa of everything, but in this case I can see mistakes in both sides. Rafa failed to see the stupid ego of a player that has shown nothing in football and thinks he's Torres. Keane failed to understand this is a big club and you don't have a secured place if your performances are average.

[Sir Roger]

If keane had played well and scored goals and done what he did at spurs he would still be here now but he didnt at the end of the day - yeah he scored the odd goal towards the end but im sorry i never thought he was the missing link for us .

It wouldnt have mattered if Keane had scored loads of goals
Rafa didnt want him. Full stop.
It would have made it more awkward to get rid of him. Which is why Rafa treated him the way he did. So he would throw the toys out of the pram therefore making Rafa look blameless.
Keane had two choices: Stay and be at best a bit part player or leave and go back to spurs

Make up your mind.

First you say that Rafa didn't want him.

Second you say Keane had two options. If Rafa didn't want him he wouldn't have options. Simple logic easily understandable by someone so brilliant like you.

But please, keep opening your mouth, the more you open it, the more Rafa fúcks it up. Bring that stuff, Sir Roger

Rafa wanted Keane here, perhaps he was fuming about how much Parry paid for him, but Keane wouldn't be here if Rafa didn't want him.

But Rafa won't treat Keane as a world class player when Keane is nowhere near a world class player (except in what we paid for him which was a lot). People hurry to blame Rafa of everything, but in this case I can see mistakes in both sides. Rafa failed to see the stupid ego of a player that has shown nothing in football and thinks he's Torres. Keane failed to understand this is a big club and you don't have a secured place if your performances are average.

You flatter me Sabre
I didnt know I had so much influence over our results!

Rafa didnt want keane
It was Parrys choice
Rafa wanted Barry (what a pudding) and took great umbrage at not getting him. So much so that Parry and Keane were dead men walking.
You seem to be unable to grasp the subtleties of management and underestimating our beloved leader's intelligence and guile
Rafa knew that if Keane shone he would have a hard time convincing the fans that he should go. Hence the constant substitutions, demotions to the bench, being left out of the squad altogether etc. There's only so much a person can take and yes Keane did react negatively to it. Apparantly Rafa never explained and never thought he had to. As is his want.
Keane, like Crouch, was never going to fit into Rafa preferred formation and also had too much of a mind of his own. This culminated in Keane's choice to not be a pawn anymore and do what was best for him, and some would say LFC by leaving.
Game set and match to the Emperor

[GYBS]

Rafa did want keane - all this cr ap about Parry wanting him is just rubbish . Rafa bought him - maybe he wasnt first choice but Rafa still bought but saw that he just wasnt working out and couldnt fit in so sold him .

And crouch didnt fit in as first choice in his preffered formation becuase torres is number one BUT Rafa wanted crouch to stay and be part of the squad but crouch himself decided to leave .

[Sir Roger]

Rafa did want keane - all this cr ap about Parry wanting him is just rubbish . Rafa bought him - maybe he wasnt first choice but Rafa still bought but saw that he just wasnt working out and couldnt fit in so sold him .

And crouch didnt fit in as first choice in his preffered formation becuase torres is number one BUT Rafa wanted crouch to stay and be part of the squad but crouch himself decided to leave .

1. Why do you say Parry wanting Keane is rubbish?
2. What makes you think Rafa wanted him?
3. Wasnt the biggest problem Rafa had was that he wanted to be in sole charge of tranfers?
4. Why do you think Parry announced he was leaving and Rafa then signed his new contract?
5. Is everything just black and white to you?

Answer these question please in any order
Thanks

[GYBS]

1. because Rafa has stated he wanted and he was on the list he gave Parry - abliet not his first choice
2.See Above
3.Yes he wanted to look after the transfers so he could get his first choice targets and not settle for his second choice
4.Because Rafa and Parry dont get on anymore due to reasons none of us will ever know for sure but im no doubt will speculate about
5.Is everything just made up bullsh it rumours and specualtion to you with no facts whatso ever to back them up.

[Sir Roger]

1. because Rafa has stated he wanted and he was on the list he gave Parry - abliet not his first choice
2.See Above
3.Yes he wanted to look after the transfers so he could get his first choice targets and not settle for his second choice
4.Because Rafa and Parry dont get on anymore due to reasons none of us will ever know for sure but im no doubt will speculate about
5.Is everything just made up bullsh it rumours and specualtion to you with no facts whatso ever to back them up.

The facts are there for everyone, even you to see:
Keane and Parry (at the end of the season) no more
Old benevolent, laughing, charming Rafa does the dirty deed
The smiling assassin

[GYBS]

Whats facts are these then to back up your theory ?

[Sabre]

You flatter me Sabre
I didnt know I had so much influence over our results!

No comment.

Rafa didnt want keane
It was Parrys choice

This statement lacks any logic. Rafa wanted Keane. Perhaps Rafa didn't want to pay that much for Keane and not signing Barry, but Keane wouldn't be here if Rafa didn't want him for the team.

The proof of that is that Rafa used Keane consistently in the first stage of the season. He used Keane to the point of being criticised for it, as Keane didn't show anything worth 20M.

But I simply can't see Keane coming if Rafa didn't want him to be here, let alone play so much the first games.

Rafa wanted Barry (what a pudding) and took great umbrage at not getting him. So much so that Parry and Keane were dead men walking.

This is mere speculation. A plot which quality can be matched to Betty the Ugly, but I can't see it as a reasonable explanation of what happened.

You seem to be unable to grasp the subtleties of management and underestimating our beloved leader's intelligence and guile
Rafa knew that if Keane shone he would have a hard time convincing the fans that he should go.

No doubts I'm unable to grasp the subtleties of top management, I'm a football fan.

I hope, for the sake of your mental health that you don't consider able yourself to grasp the subtleties of management in elite football.

As for the understimation of Rafa's intelligence. No. Not at all. It's simply that I don't try to explain what he does with ridiculous stories.

Hence the constant substitutions, demotions to the bench, being left out of the squad altogether etc. There's only so much a person can take and yes Keane did react negatively to it. Apparantly Rafa never explained and never thought he had to. As is his want.

Hello, this is elite football. There's no time. Alonso is not international for Ireland, but for Spain. He struggled with injuries last year, but there was no time for him, Rafa prompted him to gear up a level.

And Alonso had shown more than Keane in the past. Apparently Keane thought  that his Irish international status and what he had shown were enough to not be substituted or benched. But you see, Rafa cares little about what a player thinks it's the reputation. He asks improvements to anyone for the team. Keane is no exception.

Keane, like Crouch, was never going to fit into Rafa preferred formation and also had too much of a mind of his own. This culminated in Keane's choice to not be a pawn anymore and do what was best for him, and some would say LFC by leaving.

I want players that are very good technically, but feel themselves as pawns.

When Knights start thinking they're rooks, or rooks start thinking they're queens, you have cases like Keane.

Game set and match to the Emperor

Yes, and he's a greedy one at that. Now he'll get the league to put some cement in a lot of opened mouths.

[Sir Roger]

You flatter me Sabre
I didnt know I had so much influence over our results!

No comment.

Rafa didnt want keane
It was Parrys choice

This statement lacks any logic. Rafa wanted Keane. Perhaps Rafa didn't want to pay that much for Keane and not signing Barry, but Keane wouldn't be here if Rafa didn't want him for the team.

The proof of that is that Rafa used Keane consistently in the first stage of the season. He used Keane to the point of being criticised for it, as Keane didn't show anything worth 20M.

But I simply can't see Keane coming if Rafa didn't want him to be here, let alone play so much the first games.

Rafa wanted Barry (what a pudding) and took great umbrage at not getting him. So much so that Parry and Keane were dead men walking.

This is mere speculation. A plot which quality can be matched to Betty the Ugly, but I can't see it as a reasonable explanation of what happened.

You seem to be unable to grasp the subtleties of management and underestimating our beloved leader's intelligence and guile
Rafa knew that if Keane shone he would have a hard time convincing the fans that he should go.

No doubts I'm unable to grasp the subtleties of top management, I'm a football fan.

I hope, for the sake of your mental health that you don't consider able yourself to grasp the subtleties of management in elite football.

As for the understimation of Rafa's intelligence. No. Not at all. It's simply that I don't try to explain what he does with ridiculous stories.

Hence the constant substitutions, demotions to the bench, being left out of the squad altogether etc. There's only so much a person can take and yes Keane did react negatively to it. Apparantly Rafa never explained and never thought he had to. As is his want.

Hello, this is elite football. There's no time. Alonso is not international for Ireland, but for Spain. He struggled with injuries last year, but there was no time for him, Rafa prompted him to gear up a level.

And Alonso had shown more than Keane in the past. Apparently Keane thought  that his Irish international status and what he had shown were enough to not be substituted or benched. But you see, Rafa cares little about what a player thinks it's the reputation. He asks improvements to anyone for the team. Keane is no exception.

Keane, like Crouch, was never going to fit into Rafa preferred formation and also had too much of a mind of his own. This culminated in Keane's choice to not be a pawn anymore and do what was best for him, and some would say LFC by leaving.

I want players that are very good technically, but feel themselves as pawns.

When Knights start thinking they're rooks, or rooks start thinking they're queens, you have cases like Keane.

Game set and match to the Emperor

Yes, and he's a greedy one at that. Now he'll get the league to put some cement in a lot of opened mouths.

Goor reply
Interesting

Just a few points:
We can agree to disagree about how much Rafa wanted keane. As you say he wanted him otherwise he wouldnt have come, I say he didnt otherwise he wouldnt have gone.

The plot to which you cannot see any explanation is based on fact. Neither of the men involved are (Parry at the end of the season) involved in LFC. Unless it is just a coincidence...?

Which leads me on to your next point. I too am a football fan who is in fine mental health (?). I consider myself very able to grasp the subtleties of management in elite or any other standard of football. Of course we are not always privvy to some information, but the clues are there for anyone to see in the media, body language, things left unsaid, mind games, decisions made etc. I'm sure if you tried hard enough, or wanted to, you could grasp them as well. It's not so different to politics really.

You may try to undermine my opinion by saying I make up ridiculous stories, but in my experience truth is stranger than fiction. I have learned this through over 40 years of watching LFC and never tire of the fascinating things that go on both in front of and behind closed doors.

As far as being given time is concerned, I'm sure you can think of plenty who have been given loads of time and patience by Rafa. Kuyt being one...

I particularly like your chess analogy. Although some of us saw Keane as a knight rather than a rook, coming to our aid on his trusty steed. Unfortunately Rafa undid his saddle and he fell off...

[Sabre]

That's a good reply too. Don't take too seriously my "undermining", it's just that when I see someone too sure of what he says, I can't help but banter a bit with him and send a few torpedoes to his self confidence.

Now, to the core of the disagreement

The plot to which you cannot see any explanation is based on fact. Neither of the men involved are (Parry at the end of the season) involved in LFC. Unless it is just a coincidence...?

Yes, it's a fact that Keane and Parry are out of the club. The difference between you and me, is that I'm not that quick to stablish links between the facts. Not that I'm not quick enough to spot the link, of course I consider it, I'm just not as sure as you are to stablish a link. As there are multiple interpretations. For instance Parry might be out of the club because Rafa, I can see that, but Keane being out hasn't to be linked with parry being out. It may be simply that the player wants to play more. Your interpretation, is just one of the many possible.

Which leads me to your next interesting point

Which leads me on to your next point. I too am a football fan who is in fine mental health (?). I consider myself very able to grasp the subtleties of management in elite or any other standard of football. Of course we are not always privvy to some information, but the clues are there for anyone to see in the media, body language, things left unsaid, mind games, decisions made etc. I'm sure if you tried hard enough, or wanted to, you could grasp them as well. It's not so different to politics really.

Aha. This is where I'm humble and admit that the media, body language, things left unsaid, are not enough to make definitive conclussions about what's going on in Melwood.

I even have the advantage of being Spanish and understanding what Rafa means with many expressions which he translates literally... but all that info is not enough for me.

Because I'm not able to watch the signs? Of course I'm able to watch, but I'm skeptical about it being enough to know what's going on.

If I was able to be at Melwood every training session, at least from outside, but watching the quarrels, the discussions, how the people train, how the manager talks to the lads after the games, then yes, I'd be more sure of what's going on.

But the art of interpreting body language and words is not easy. I think it will lead to error to you, to me, and whoever tries that art.

Please Sir Roger, sorry if I undermined too much, it was nothing more than bantering. 

[GYBS]

Yes im sure Rafa in the end didnt want keane as he left but that doesnt mean he didnt want him in the first place - he bought him he played him then he sold him . But to say Parry wanted him and Rafa didnt is just pure specualtion with no proof or facts to back up that suggestion . Just becuase someone leaves the club doesnt mean the manager didnt want him in the first place and you have no proof or facts to back up that suggestion

Some players get given time - mainly due to their age and using Kuyt as an example has proved in his first season he could produce the goods - second season ( first half ) was poor - mainly down to loosing his father then switching roles.

Keane saw himself as a better player than most saw him - he was happy to leave at the end of the day .

yes there maybe clues in the media ( but then again the media themselves make up half their stories on pure specualtion ) so you yourself are making specualtion and assumptions on other specualtion and assumptions.

[Sabre]

Yes im sure Rafa in the end didnt want keane as he left but that doesnt mean he didnt want him in the first place - he bought him he played him then he sold him . But to say Parry wanted him and Rafa didnt is just pure specualtion with no proof or facts to back up that suggestion . Just becuase someone leaves the club doesnt mean the manager didnt want him in the first place and you have no proof or facts to back up that suggestion

Yes, a manager wanting a player to stay, but actually the player leaving is not something rare.

In fact, we've seen it several times during Rafa's reign:

Hamman: the manager told the player that he appreciated him but he'd be playing less. The player left.

Crouch: The manager praised the player before, during, and after he played for Liverpool. Crouch simply thought he wanted more regular football.

I think keane's is yet another case of Rafa wanting him to stay, but Keane didn't consider his status at the club good enough, and left.

Rafa should have spotted that when he knew the player the first time. Rafa should have made clear before signing what should Keane expect. But it's perfectly possible that Rafa wanted Keane to stay but Keane wanting to go badly under this circunstances.

[Alex G.]

Why there are people in this forum still thinking that Keane would have triumph at Liverpool?

No idea of football.