Liverpool FC Forum

[jonnymac1979]

i like the way stu using football manager 2006

Do you know how that game or games such as that came about?

FC Barcelona had a database with every player in the top three leagues of world football on. They had every stat available, they sent scouts and managers to watch and assess them and look at all there strengths and weaknesses.

It was then put into a database with each individual skill, that was then used to assess players by Barcelona and they would refere to that using the database.

This is now common practise amoungst nearly EVERY SINGLE CLUB in the top leagues in world football. It varies greatly amoung certain clubs, but the system is pretty much the same. Hence the reason Benitez knew so much about Liverpool FC and players we'd never heard of ourselves.

not too convinced by that, it doesnt take into consideration a number of things(i.e. the bother a player like barton causes) and statistics are all that reliable to be fair, there is room for variation between the people who mark players on that criteria

backing your arguement up with stats is useless when it is clear that barton is nowhere near the calibre of stevie g

Stu is correct.  Read Allardyce's column in FourFourTwo this month.  This database does exist.  Bolton Wanderers for one team at least use it.

I'd wager Benitez has reams and reams of statistics in hard copy, digitally and on paper, stored mentally in his and his coaches minds and he probably has a secure database stored on the internet as well.

These things do exist.

[DrTNT]

i like the way stu using football manager 2006

Do you know how that game or games such as that came about?

FC Barcelona had a database with every player in the top three leagues of world football on. They had every stat available, they sent scouts and managers to watch and assess them and look at all there strengths and weaknesses.

It was then put into a database with each individual skill, that was then used to assess players by Barcelona and they would refere to that using the database.

This is now common practise amoungst nearly EVERY SINGLE CLUB in the top leagues in world football. It varies greatly amoung certain clubs, but the system is pretty much the same. Hence the reason Benitez knew so much about Liverpool FC and players we'd never heard of ourselves.

not too convinced by that, it doesnt take into consideration a number of things(i.e. the bother a player like barton causes) and statistics are all that reliable to be fair, there is room for variation between the people who mark players on that criteria

backing your arguement up with stats is useless when it is clear that barton is nowhere near the calibre of stevie g

Stu is correct.  Read Allardyce's column in FourFourTwo this month.  This database does exist.  Bolton Wanderers for one team at least use it.

I'd wager Benitez has reams and reams of statistics in hard copy, digitally and on paper, stored mentally in his and his coaches minds and he probably has a secure database stored on the internet as well.

These things do exist.

That's a very interesting piece of information.


I remember a thread about Rafa on here a few months ago that had an article about the vast amount of work Rafa does in researching players. It talked about the large amount of videos of players and games he had both at Anfield and in his parents house.

[Squigels]

scouts must be a lazy bunch of wnakers then it shows.

Must mean Wenger's encyclopedic knowlodge which them know nothing Arsenal fans always point to isn't true.

Not as much of a genius as we all thought he was.

Clearly Fergie aint mastered a computer hasn't had a good find since Windows 98 Solksjaer.

We all knew bout Ronaldo so no computer for that one

[115-1073096938]

I like the way Barton has been playing this season. I watched the highlights of a game City lost 5-2 (can't remember who it was against) and Barton was absolutely everywhere, the best player on the park. He looks to me like he is finally turning into a player but it's still early doors and he's only really been at this level these past few months. My oldest mate is a season ticket holder at City and he has been raving about the lad all season.

Stu - I didn't really study the individual stats you put together because i don't (can't) believe you have seen enough of Barton in the flesh (or Ashton for that matter) to have been able to come to any really credible conclusions on the talent/characterisitcs of either player. For me, Barton is a good player who could become a fine player if he continues to progress as he has done this season. Claiming Barton is as good, if not better than Stevie in terms of technical ability is folly. I mean what is technical ability? Touch, control, adressing the ball, ability to turn, pass. Barton has a long long way to go in this department.

I've seen Barton live three times. I've seen Ashton live 7 times, 4 for Crewe, once for the under 21's once for Norwich and played against the lad.

I also made a point of watching City when possible when Robbie was there hence the reason i was i convinced he still had alot to offer.

This season I've seen Liverpool live only 12 times, however i have seen City twice live, once against Liverpool, i've also watched Tranmere twice.

Barton doesn't lack technical ability, Scott, you're normally one of the more intelligent posters on here and don't talk rubbish, next time he plays and you get the chance, watch the lad. Just watch his touches and passes, you'll be suprised.

The reason i've said this is down to something i was told about 6 months ago. Harry Warburton, he runs Whiston Juniors football club, i've played for him, Steven Gerrard has played for him Barton has played for him, Trundle has played for him. He said to me 6 months ago Joey Barton's as good as Steven Gerrard... I laughed at him.

I then watched Barton with keen interest, then started to speak to Harry more than i had in the past, he made alot of excellent points, then i put it to him Gerrard's improved physically more than Barton, he agreed and said thats probably why Gerrard has made that level of player, he also said there were two lads in the Whiston team he played for better than him, Anthony Banejcik and David Bolton. One of which is now a drug addict, the other a fireman.

Harry pointed things out that people don't see, he made me realise there are players outside the top clubs. He also said he knew at the time that Steven was more likely to make it as he was the one who wanted it the most and was physically growing at the right rate. He knows his stuff, 17 lads have made it professionally from Whiston while he's been there, one of them is now one of the best midfielders in the world.

Having spoken to people like him, John Fletcher (another whiston coach) and a few other people in the know i've learnt ALOT both about tactics and players ability levels. One thing he also said is about players ability not improving but "maturing" into a system and a style, he's correct. He said players don't become good and turn different as they grow up, he said you never see a fancy dan become a centre half or vice versa, he simply said players mature. Obviously physical attributes change, but in general they don't change to much as players. Which is something if you watch Barton and Gerrard you can see is true.

Players in great systems look better than they actually are. Lampard, Carragher, Finnan... none of these players are world class, yet the first two now "wrongly" in some cases have reputations as the best in the world in there positions.

[115-1073096938]

i like the way stu using football manager 2006

Do you know how that game or games such as that came about?

FC Barcelona had a database with every player in the top three leagues of world football on. They had every stat available, they sent scouts and managers to watch and assess them and look at all there strengths and weaknesses.

It was then put into a database with each individual skill, that was then used to assess players by Barcelona and they would refere to that using the database.

This is now common practise amoungst nearly EVERY SINGLE CLUB in the top leagues in world football. It varies greatly amoung certain clubs, but the system is pretty much the same. Hence the reason Benitez knew so much about Liverpool FC and players we'd never heard of ourselves.

not too convinced by that, it doesnt take into consideration a number of things(i.e. the bother a player like barton causes) and statistics are all that reliable to be fair, there is room for variation between the people who mark players on that criteria

backing your arguement up with stats is useless when it is clear that barton is nowhere near the calibre of stevie g

Stu is correct.  Read Allardyce's column in FourFourTwo this month.  This database does exist.  Bolton Wanderers for one team at least use it.

I'd wager Benitez has reams and reams of statistics in hard copy, digitally and on paper, stored mentally in his and his coaches minds and he probably has a secure database stored on the internet as well.

These things do exist.

That's a very interesting piece of information.


I remember a thread about Rafa on here a few months ago that had an article about the vast amount of work Rafa does in researching players. It talked about the large amount of videos of players and games he had both at Anfield and in his parents house.

I'd also bet my house on it Rafa visits this forum aswell as many others.

He said numorous times he checks for fans opinions, both of his own teams and opposition for "extra insight" etc etc. He also admits to learning from fans in certain cases which i think is a measure of just how good the man is.

[66-1120597113]

I agree with quite a lot of what Stu says!!
Barton in my opinion is a very good player..and underated by most.

He is a very similar player to Gerrard in the ways that Stu has mentioned but i feel that Stu overates Joey Barton when most do the opossite!

Yes Joey is a good player and he is having a great season..i also feel that he can play at a higher level than Man City!But to basically say that he has as much technical abilty as S/G is balls! And tha S/G is only a better player because of attaitude,work rate and physical presence is total cr@p!

Stu i agree with most of the things you say on here and its clear you have more football knowledge than a lot.......But to put Joey Barton in Stevies league...sorry lad!
I dont buy it!!

Barry, i'm not saying he's in Stevie's league mate. I'm saying he's an excellent player, in Lampard's class. For me he's as good as Lampard but different.

Gerrard isn't a world class passer, he's sloppy occassionally and isn't like Alonso. Over the years i've seen good passers short and long, Alonso and Redknapp can put a ball on a pennypeice from 60 yards, Barnes and Hamann never conceed possession and play good short passes. Barton's short passing is better.

Using the old champ manager system to get my point across... Gerrard first, Barton second out of 20, 20 being world class, 15 being very good, 10 being average. I'll put Henry and Cisse in there to give you more of an idea.

Gerrard, Barton, Henry, Cisse.

Physical:

Pace: 17, 11, 20, 20
Accelertion: 17, 12, 20, 18
Strength: 17, 13, 15, 12
Agility: 16, 12, 16, 11
Balance: 18, 12, 18, 12
Work rate: 20, 18, 15, 8

Mental:

Vision: 15, 15, 17, 8
Positional sense: 15, 17, 10, 7
Aggression: 19, 19, 15, 11
Bottle: 19, 17, 12, 8
Leadership: 19, 16, 15, 5
Ability to read the game (defensive): 15, 17, 9, 7
Ability to read the game (attacking): 17, 15, 16, 14
Decision making: 15, 16, 16, 10
Composure: 17, 16, 19, 11

Technical:

Passing: 16, 17, 14, 11
Heading: 14, 11, 11, 10
Finishing: 16, 14, 18, 15
Shooting: 18, 15, 16, 15
Dribbling: 15, 12, 18, 13 (attribute thats effected by pace)
Technique: 16, 16, 19, 13
First touch: 15, 15, 18, 11
Skill: 15, 15, 18, 8

Fu.ck all that number Stu!!

I must have misread your post mate Because i thoought there was a bit that said Barton had some better attributes basically...i dont think theres anything to Bartons game thats better than Gerrards mate!!
That aint red goggles as i call a spade a spade..i have watched Barton a lot especially this season and yes i have enjoyed doing so!!
Maybe im missing something and i will watch him more but nothing you can say will change my mind that Joey Baton or  Barton is better in any part of the game,be it physical,technical or mental!!
So we will have to agree to disagree here!!

Oh and BTW i could never get into those managers games!! 

There are parts of Barton's game better than Gerrard's only slightly, but there are area's of Gerrard's game that are better slightly and quite alot.

To be honest, i like that way of judging players, i haven't played the game for years but when judging a professional player its a good system to look at, i mean, the professional managers do it so why not? Judge individualy each attribute, its like when people put players in a world class catorgary when they aren't, the likes of Carragher and Ferdinand. Looking at it like that you see ones strength's to the others then can compare them overall as a player. Carragher, Ferdinand.

Physical:

Pace:                                 13,                   17
Accelertion:                         14,                   16
Strength:                            17,                   18
Agility:                                14,                   14
Balance:                             13,                    15
Work rate:                          20,                    12

Mental:

Vision:                                 8,                     13
Positional sense:                  16,                     18
Concentration:                     18,                     13
Aggression:                         18,                     12
Determination:                     20,                     12
Bottle:                               20,                      15
Leadership:                         19,                      17
Anticipation (defensive):        17,                     18
Anticipation (attacking):          7,                     13
Decision making:                  18,                      15
Composure:                         14,                     16

Technical:

Passing:                             12,                      15
Heading:                            14,                       17
Finishing:                            7,                        9 (guess work)
Shooting:                           6,                        6 (guess work)
Dribbling:                            10,                      12
Technique:                          12,                      15
First touch:                         12,                      15
Skill:                                  11,                      13

In a nutshell mate you break it down too much and it gets boring!!!!

[115-1073096938]

I think this argument illustrates for me perfectly why I don't like the CM stat way of judging players. You end up arguing about whether player A can control it better with his left foot than player B, which one has a better chip and which can do "the eyes" best when one on one with the keeper.
In fairness to Stu he isn't saying that Barton is a better player than Gerrard, merely that he is better at certain things. I'm pretty sure I disagree with any stat which indicates that Barton is any way equal to Gerrard but the Man City man is certainly a much improved player of that there is no doubt. He's not a right midfielder so the initial topic-starter is a bit off, but equally it is fair to say that Barton is a rapidly improving player who would get in most sides in the Premiership tomorrow. My suspicion is that his transfer request was prompted by a tap-up, and if I was a detective I would be beginning my enquiries at Arsenal. Equally Manure could do a lot worse in their search for a holding midfielder.

Stu's forthright opinions and percieved arrogance can rub some up the wrong way on occasions but needlessly so IMHO. I don't always agree with him but I do respect his opinion more than a lot of people who get on here. Also he's not afraid of swimming against the tide which is quite refreshing sometimes. FWIW I think his line about Barton having equal if not better technical ability was at best a poor choice of words and at worst a rank misjudgement, but attempts to discredit the fella totally will largely fall on deaf ears on here. They will with me anyhow.

Thank you. Appriciated.

[66-1120597113]

I think this argument illustrates for me perfectly why I don't like the CM stat way of judging players. You end up arguing about whether player A can control it better with his left foot than player B, which one has a better chip and which can do "the eyes" best when one on one with the keeper.
In fairness to Stu he isn't saying that Barton is a better player than Gerrard, merely that he is better at certain things. I'm pretty sure I disagree with any stat which indicates that Barton is any way equal to Gerrard but the Man City man is certainly a much improved player of that there is no doubt. He's not a right midfielder so the initial topic-starter is a bit off, but equally it is fair to say that Barton is a rapidly improving player who would get in most sides in the Premiership tomorrow. My suspicion is that his transfer request was prompted by a tap-up, and if I was a detective I would be beginning my enquiries at Arsenal. Equally Manure could do a lot worse in their search for a holding midfielder.

Stu's forthright opinions and percieved arrogance can rub some up the wrong way on occasions but needlessly so IMHO. I don't always agree with him but I do respect his opinion more than a lot of people who get on here. Also he's not afraid of swimming against the tide which is quite refreshing sometimes. FWIW I think his line about Barton having equal if not better technical ability was at best a poor choice of words and at worst a rank misjudgement, but attempts to discredit the fella totally will largely fall on deaf ears on here. They will with me anyhow.

Thank you. Appriciated.

And me as well !!!

But Stu u was wrong fella......im going to bed !!
Happy posting with imbeciles or worse!

YNWA

[tel]

This is Hamann's last year and Barton would be a good back up when Didi hangs up the boots. He has good technical ability and the sort of aggression we need to play against mid table teams like Bolton.

He's not a right sided player. Joe Cole should be our target for that position post World Cup. He's not a happy lad at Chelsea and he hates being made a scapegoat by Mauron. He'll be available in the summer.

[flipmode]

Yes Cole would be good, or Wright-Phillips both wasted at ChelS*&t

[LFCNUTTER]

Does Stu the red just say these things to be controversial I cant believe anyone can be that thick
Joey Barton better than Gerrard your having a f-cking laugh lad

[woof woof !]

Whatever Bartons footballing ability I hope we never sign him . I don't know him personally but his behaviour over that last 12 months as widely reported suggests he is nothing more than a thug who has been blessed with some footballing ability .

[LFCNUTTER]

i like the way stu using football manager 2006

Do you know how that game or games such as that came about?

FC Barcelona had a database with every player in the top three leagues of world football on. They had every stat available, they sent scouts and managers to watch and assess them and look at all there strengths and weaknesses.

It was then put into a database with each individual skill, that was then used to assess players by Barcelona and they would refere to that using the database.

This is now common practise amoungst nearly EVERY SINGLE CLUB in the top leagues in world football. It varies greatly amoung certain clubs, but the system is pretty much the same. Hence the reason Benitez knew so much about Liverpool FC and players we'd never heard of ourselves.

not too convinced by that, it doesnt take into consideration a number of things(i.e. the bother a player like barton causes) and statistics are all that reliable to be fair, there is room for variation between the people who mark players on that criteria

backing your arguement up with stats is useless when it is clear that barton is nowhere near the calibre of stevie g

Stu is correct.  Read Allardyce's column in FourFourTwo this month.  This database does exist.  Bolton Wanderers for one team at least use it.

I'd wager Benitez has reams and reams of statistics in hard copy, digitally and on paper, stored mentally in his and his coaches minds and he probably has a secure database stored on the internet as well.

These things do exist.

That's a very interesting piece of information.


I remember a thread about Rafa on here a few months ago that had an article about the vast amount of work Rafa does in researching players. It talked about the large amount of videos of players and games he had both at Anfield and in his parents house.

I'd also bet my house on it Rafa visits this forum aswell as many others.

He said numorous times he checks for fans opinions, both of his own teams and opposition for "extra insight" etc etc. He also admits to learning from fans in certain cases which i think is a measure of just how good the man is.

Raffa will learn f-ck all from your posts

[flipmode]

i like the way stu using football manager 2006

Do you know how that game or games such as that came about?

FC Barcelona had a database with every player in the top three leagues of world football on. They had every stat available, they sent scouts and managers to watch and assess them and look at all there strengths and weaknesses.

It was then put into a database with each individual skill, that was then used to assess players by Barcelona and they would refere to that using the database.

This is now common practise amoungst nearly EVERY SINGLE CLUB in the top leagues in world football. It varies greatly amoung certain clubs, but the system is pretty much the same. Hence the reason Benitez knew so much about Liverpool FC and players we'd never heard of ourselves.

not too convinced by that, it doesnt take into consideration a number of things(i.e. the bother a player like barton causes) and statistics are all that reliable to be fair, there is room for variation between the people who mark players on that criteria

backing your arguement up with stats is useless when it is clear that barton is nowhere near the calibre of stevie g

Stu is correct.  Read Allardyce's column in FourFourTwo this month.  This database does exist.  Bolton Wanderers for one team at least use it.

I'd wager Benitez has reams and reams of statistics in hard copy, digitally and on paper, stored mentally in his and his coaches minds and he probably has a secure database stored on the internet as well.

These things do exist.

That's a very interesting piece of information.


I remember a thread about Rafa on here a few months ago that had an article about the vast amount of work Rafa does in researching players. It talked about the large amount of videos of players and games he had both at Anfield and in his parents house.

I'd also bet my house on it Rafa visits this forum aswell as many others.

He said numorous times he checks for fans opinions, both of his own teams and opposition for "extra insight" etc etc. He also admits to learning from fans in certain cases which i think is a measure of just how good the man is.

Raffa will learn f-ck all from your posts

[Scottbot]

Barton doesn't lack technical ability, Scott, you're normally one of the more intelligent posters on here and don't talk rubbish, next time he plays and you get the chance, watch the lad. Just watch his touches and passes, you'll be suprised.

I rate the lad Stu (as i've already said) but for me, he has a way to go before he is the equal of Gerrard in just about every department (including technical ability.)