Liverpool FC Forum

[taff]

In my view, houllier while starting well and moving the club on was not up to being a top manager and did leave the club behind when Rafa took over. Rafa has improved the squad and the play but Man Utd and Chelsea have moved on too from being in a stronger position to start with.  I begrudgingly agree about Neville and dont want to say it but he is IMO the best right back in the league.  I also think that the old guard in Man Utd with Ronaldo and Rooney have made them the leaders.

With Liverpool I think we are a few players short but the reality is and the reason I respect Rafa is he doesnt just try to panick buy improvement a la Newcastle, in fact we have an extremely strong foundation to work with.  I dont think anyone can really debate the improvement in the team.

My priority would be a top striker as I think we have three excellent partners at the moment but not a natural goal machine. A left back if we can find one better than the current options and a right side midfielder

[Santa]

Oh started on a member of the clique have I so they all have to have a go? Go on then... look forward to hearing it.

you are boring and not at all funny stu...ever wonder why you are always on one side and everybody's at the other side?


No it's not because you know more football than the rest of us (although I know that's how highly you think you are)...tsk tsk tsk 

[RedBlood]

i wouldnt say we have taken a step backwards we have been very unlucky not to have atleast 10-15 more points at the start of the season we were creating 20 chances to our opponents 1or 2 and getting beat 1-0

plus we have not made bad sigings the players we brought in are all good players it was the key men like alonso gerrard carra and reina who started the season poorly due to fatige from the world cup that let us down at the start of the season but ofcourse supporters blame the new players who havent even had time to settle in
we are a better team then last year despite the points difference and rafa is building and improving every year

[JBG]

With regard to Stu's point about Man UTD, I think they have been terrific this season and will be deserving winners of the Premiership (which they will win).

However, I don't think we are as far away from them as Stu and others make out. For example, earlier in this thread Stu said only a couple of our players would get into the UTD side. However, look at the team UTD put out against Portsmouth yesterday. Its true that UTD have one or two injuries at the moment but UTD have consistently played the likes of O' Shea, Brown, Fletcher etc this season who are no better than the likes of our squad players.

Most managers will tell you that winning the league involves a certain amount of luck and UTD got it this season when they hit the ground running early on with no injuries and an easy start to the season, which allowed them to put a serious amount of points on the board before they met any of the other top four sides. Their season snowballed from there. If UTD has lost say, Ronaldo, early on in the season through injury and had one or two early season slip ups like they did in previous seasons I think this year would have essentially been a re-run of last year with Chelsea winning the league easily and then losing a few games towards the end as they got sloppy and complacent making the league look more competitive than it actually was.

For me the gap between Liverpool and Chelsea at the end of last season was frightening, despite the fact that we only finished seven points or so off them at the end. They had strength all over the park last year, with two exceptional players for every position and bulging pockets allowing them to go out and buy more. However, for me, Abramovich lost them the league this year. There was no need to sign Ballack and Shevchenko at all, instead they should have moved heaven and earth to keep Gallas and sign an up and coming forward like Berbatov, Diego Millito or Dirk Kuyt instead. By over-egging the cake Chelsea allowed Man UTD, Arsenal and ourselves have a shot at them but only Man UTD had the gumption to take the chance.

UTD are a better side than us - the league table doesn't lie - but they certainly aren't 18 points better and I think over the next two or three seasons we'll see this.

[Stu.Murph]

i wouldnt say we have taken a step backwards we have been very unlucky not to have atleast 10-15 more points at the start of the season we were creating 20 chances to our opponents 1or 2 and getting beat 1-0

plus we have not made bad sigings the players we brought in are all good players it was the key men like alonso gerrard carra and reina who started the season poorly due to fatige from the world cup that let us down at the start of the season but ofcourse supporters blame the new players who havent even had time to settle in
we are a better team then last year despite the points difference and rafa is building and improving every year

I'm sorry but in football you make your own luck. I'm not having for a second we're in third place down to luck. We're in third place because we were simply at the start of the season. We got trounced by United, we got slaughtered by Everton and Arsenal... and don't give me about us creating chances against Everton, so what, we didn't even score one. If you don't take ya chances you deserve a beating. We also got completely bossed by Bolton.

We were woeful at Villa the other week and the performance at home to Blackburn was embarressing.

I won't mention the Newcastle away game in the same breath due to conditions, but a peice of poor defending forcing a goal keeper into making a mistake he shouldn't have had to make cost us a goal in that game which cost us the match.

The players this season who were brought in in my opinion were not good signings. None of them have made us a better team. Pennant I like as I do Aurelio, but neither of them have set the world alight. Bellamy and Kuyt certainly haven't improved us and Gonzalez is a complete waste of space.

You can see it at the game. Last sesaons team was far stronger and better. It was better in both defence and attack and at controlling games.

[JBG]

i wouldnt say we have taken a step backwards we have been very unlucky not to have atleast 10-15 more points at the start of the season we were creating 20 chances to our opponents 1or 2 and getting beat 1-0

plus we have not made bad sigings the players we brought in are all good players it was the key men like alonso gerrard carra and reina who started the season poorly due to fatige from the world cup that let us down at the start of the season but ofcourse supporters blame the new players who havent even had time to settle in
we are a better team then last year despite the points difference and rafa is building and improving every year

I'm sorry but in football you make your own luck. I'm not having for a second we're in third place down to luck. We're in third place because we were simply at the start of the season. We got trounced by United, we got slaughtered by Everton and Arsenal... and don't give me about us creating chances against Everton, so what, we didn't even score one. If you don't take ya chances you deserve a beating. We also got completely bossed by Bolton.

We were woeful at Villa the other week and the performance at home to Blackburn was embarressing.

I won't mention the Newcastle away game in the same breath due to conditions, but a peice of poor defending forcing a goal keeper into making a mistake he shouldn't have had to make cost us a goal in that game which cost us the match.

The players this season who were brought in in my opinion were not good signings. None of them have made us a better team. Pennant I like as I do Aurelio, but neither of them have set the world alight. Bellamy and Kuyt certainly haven't improved us and Gonzalez is a complete waste of space.

You can see it at the game. Last sesaons team was far stronger and better. It was better in both defence and attack and at controlling games.

While I do agree with what you are saying (particularly the god awful performances in the early season) Stu, do you not think, however, that we are moving on and improving and getting back to where we were last season?

Also, so far, aside form 35 panicky minutes in the second half against Barca at Anfield when Momo Sissoko might as well have been playing for Barca we have been beyond reproach in Europe, indeed a step better than we were in 05/06.

[account deleted by request]

We have a much stronger squad this season than last, but the actual team on the pitch is no better and perhaps slightly worse than last season. This has been accentuated by the form (and goals) of Gerrard last season in comparison to this, the loss of Kewell and Hyppia's gradual replacement by Agger.

[Stu.Murph]

With regard to Stu's point about Man UTD, I think they have been terrific this season and will be deserving winners of the Premiership (which they will win).

However, I don't think we are as far away from them as Stu and others make out. For example, earlier in this thread Stu said only a couple of our players would get into the UTD side. However, look at the team UTD put out against Portsmouth yesterday. Its true that UTD have one or two injuries at the moment but UTD have consistently played the likes of O' Shea, Brown, Fletcher etc this season who are no better than the likes of our squad players.

Most managers will tell you that winning the league involves a certain amount of luck and UTD got it this season when they hit the ground running early on with no injuries and an easy start to the season, which allowed them to put a serious amount of points on the board before they met any of the other top four sides. Their season snowballed from there. If UTD has lost say, Ronaldo, early on in the season through injury and had one or two early season slip ups like they did in previous seasons I think this year would have essentially been a re-run of last year with Chelsea winning the league easily and then losing a few games towards the end as they got sloppy and complacent making the league look more competitive than it actually was.

For me the gap between Liverpool and Chelsea at the end of last season was frightening, despite the fact that we only finished seven points or so off them at the end. They had strength all over the park last year, with two exceptional players for every position and bulging pockets allowing them to go out and buy more. However, for me, Abramovich lost them the league this year. There was no need to sign Ballack and Shevchenko at all, instead they should have moved heaven and earth to keep Gallas and sign an up and coming forward like Berbatov, Diego Millito or Dirk Kuyt instead. By over-egging the cake Chelsea allowed Man UTD, Arsenal and ourselves have a shot at them but only Man UTD had the gumption to take the chance.

UTD are a better side than us - the league table doesn't lie - but they certainly aren't 18 points better and I think over the next two or three seasons we'll see this.

I think we're four top class players away.

When you say luck I agree to an extent, but you make your own luck as I've said. For me having Kewell as your left winger is asking for "unluckyness" if theres such a word. Had he been fit this season, we'd have more points on the board... but he wasn't. Is he ever?

Had Kewell stayed fit for me he'd have been good enough and would have built on his impressive season last year by scoring more goals.

Agger, as much as some rate him, isn't top class and never will be. A good player yes, but not one that stands out. We need one at the back who stands out. Someone as good as Hyypia if not better. For me thats Woodgate. Now yes he has his injury problems, but I feel he's worth a gamble definately and I also feel he would allow Agger the right amount of games to keep him fit, fresh and happy. I do like Agger, I just think everyones going way OTT with him, as backup I think he'd be immense and having Woodgate for me would improve our defence, but also, if he was to get injured, we'd have an able replacement.

Upfront we lack strikers. Simple as. I'd get rid of them all bar Fowler. Fowler's an excellent player still, despite what the moron's say and i'd be happy with him as fourth choice next season, providing the lads we had in were upto it. He's not been used as much as he should have been this year. Crouch, Bellamy and Kuyt don't cut the mustard for me. Four top class first teamers and we'll be laughing, no more shitty squad players, we've got a good squad, time to make it into a great one.

[Feeney]

However, for me, Abramovich lost them the league this year. There was no need to sign Ballack and Shevchenko at all, instead they should have moved heaven and earth to keep Gallas and sign an up and coming forward like Berbatov, Diego Millito or Dirk Kuyt instead. By over-egging the cake Chelsea allowed Man UTD, Arsenal and ourselves have a shot at them but only Man UTD had the gumption to take the chance.

I would have to disagree with you there JBG.

For me, Chelsea will win the league this year and this year especially, despite the lavish signings of Sheva, Ballack and co, I don't think anyone can use the money excuse.

None of the players signed by Chelsea last year have been particularly stellar this season I think its fair to say. For me, Chelsea's problem this year has been down to key injuries to Cech and Terry throughout the season. Admittedly, losing Gallas was a blow but it was a calculated risk by Mourinho as he was getting Cole in return - it didn't pay off but it was worth a shot.

Chelsea are 3 points off Man U now and for me they have earned a lot of these points by sheer guts and determination. Cech's loss was massive as not only is he outstanding at keeping the ball out of the net but his communication, decision making and distribution is sublime. Chelsea lost that calming influence at the back and it spread like an infection throughout the defence. They were no longer seen as 'invincible' and teams would go at them more so than over the last 2 years. As Terry has also been missing for a number of games, this just give teams more incentive and bravery to get at them more. Despite these losses, they only lost 1 game against us in what, 30?

For me, Chelsea wil actually have earned the title this year and deservedly so. They've shown the character needed in the face of adversity to grind out results. I'll bet the Chelsea players will feel they've earned the right to become league winners more so than the last 2 years.

[stmichael]

last season's side was better in the league because the personnel hardly ever changed if everyone was fit. reina, finnan, carra, hyypia, gerrard, sissoko, alonso, crouch all started the majority of games if fit. the only changes in personnel was on the left hand side (riise played either LM or LB) and upfront (rotation between cisse and morientes). this season we've changed the team on a much more frequent basis, which of course stems from having a bigger squad.

[JBG]

Well we agree on something - while you make your own luck (by and large) luck still plays its part and Alex Ferguson himself would agree that fortune favoured Man UTD by having a clean bill of health and an excellent fixture list at the start of the season. All the same, UTD still had to go out and beat those teams, and in previous years they slipped up against some of the lesser lights, so in that respect that made their own luck by capitalising on their good fortune and making hay when the sun shone.

In contrast we ourselves cannot complain about luck. Alex Ferguson made the point at the start of the season that we had an "easy run in" when he looked at the fixture list back in August and he was right, its our own fault for not getting our sh.it in order at the start of the campaign.

[Stu.Murph]

We have a much stronger squad this season than last, but the actual team on the pitch is no better and perhaps slightly worse than last season. This has been accentuated by the form (and goals) of Gerrard last season in comparison to this, the loss of Kewell and Hyppia's gradual replacement by Agger.

Aswell as replacing Fowler with Kuyt.

I just think watching last seasons team it had the right balance and quality. Bellamy and a player like Pennant instead of Sissoko and Morientes in the first 11 for me would have made us even stronger.

This season though I see Kewell, Fowler and Hyypia out of the side and the balance changed. While the players who would have improved last seasons team were brought in.

My point being Fowler and Morientes needed a winger. So Pennant comes in. He's then played with Bellamy and Kuyt who hardly ever score off crosses. Yes they've both scored the odd header, but neither of them attack crosses, get in the box, anticipate a ball or anything. Its like us deciding to play a high line, then going out to sign Hyypia and Terry. Or deciding we're going to be a set peice team and going out and signing Luis Garica and Aimar.

The team last season was very strong and very balanced. This season its weaker. The points on the board and performances back that up.

[JBG]

However, for me, Abramovich lost them the league this year. There was no need to sign Ballack and Shevchenko at all, instead they should have moved heaven and earth to keep Gallas and sign an up and coming forward like Berbatov, Diego Millito or Dirk Kuyt instead. By over-egging the cake Chelsea allowed Man UTD, Arsenal and ourselves have a shot at them but only Man UTD had the gumption to take the chance.

I would have to disagree with you there JBG.

For me, Chelsea will win the league this year and this year especially, despite the lavish signings of Sheva, Ballack and co, I don't think anyone can use the money excuse.

None of the players signed by Chelsea last year have been particularly stellar this season I think its fair to say. For me, Chelsea's problem this year has been down to key injuries to Cech and Terry throughout the season. Admittedly, losing Gallas was a blow but it was a calculated risk by Mourinho as he was getting Cole in return - it didn't pay off but it was worth a shot.

Chelsea are 3 points off Man U now and for me they have earned a lot of these points by sheer guts and determination. Cech's loss was massive as not only is he outstanding at keeping the ball out of the net but his communication, decision making and distribution is sublime. Chelsea lost that calming influence at the back and it spread like an infection throughout the defence. They were no longer seen as 'invincible' and teams would go at them more so than over the last 2 years. As Terry has also been missing for a number of games, this just give teams more incentive and bravery to get at them more. Despite these losses, they only lost 1 game against us in what, 30?

For me, Chelsea wil actually have earned the title this year and deservedly so. They've shown the character needed in the face of adversity to grind out results. I'll bet the Chelsea players will feel they've earned the right to become league winners more so than the last 2 years.

I disagree with you Feeney but I know what you are saying.

To win the league Chelsea have to beat Man UTD and hope Man UTD slip up in one other match (due to UTD's greater goal difference) while winning all their remaining games themselves.

I think UTD will limp home, albeit deservedly so.

[Feeney]

To win the league Chelsea have to beat Man UTD and hope Man UTD slip up in one other match (due to UTD's greater goal difference) while winning all their remaining games themselves.

Funnily enough, I was talking to a mate today who's an Evertonian about that. Man U have to go to Goodison which, as we are well aware is becoming a difficult place to get a result from. I don't want Man U to win the league (although, I wouldn't let that sway my opinion on the matter) and was saying I hope that Everton turn them over.

[Stu.Murph]

To win the league Chelsea have to beat Man UTD and hope Man UTD slip up in one other match (due to UTD's greater goal difference) while winning all their remaining games themselves.

Funnily enough, I was talking to a mate today who's an Evertonian about that. Man U have to go to Goodison which, as we are well aware is becoming a difficult place to get a result from. I don't want Man U to win the league (although, I wouldn't let that sway my opinion on the matter) and was saying I hope that Everton turn them over.

Everton or the Mancs? Bad choice...

Everton in the name of Chelsea winning the league instead of them scumbags. Lesser of the two evil's it has to be.