Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Ashton's a decent player but Crouch would still score more goals than him over a distinct period of time.

Crouch doesn't get the respect he deserves from some quarters. In the last 15 months he's scored 41 goals for club and country.

[JBG]

Ashton's a decent player but Crouch would still score more goals than him over a distinct period of time.

Crouch doesn't get the respect he deserves from some quarters. In the last 15 months he's scored 41 goals for club and country.

Exactly. What has Ashton done?

We of all clubs should know that potential is largely meaningless. How many players have we signed over the past 15 years and been told of the "player's great potential for the future?"

The whole country laughed when Liverpool signed Crouch, yet he has handsomely repaid Liverpool's outlay on him.

[Stu.Murph]

Ashton's a far better player than Crouch could ever be in a million years.

You know, mate, you keep saying this but what are their respective goal-scoring records over the past couple of years in the top flight?  I don't doubt that Ashton has quality but I don't think he's miles better than Crouch.  The big man's done well for us since breaking his duck, scoring some absolutely vital goals.  In addition, he's stayed healthy.  He's been a good signing and I find it hard to find fault with bringing him in.  You say bringing Ashton in would have paid even bigger dividends but isn't it just as likely that he would have flopped, given the huge step up he was taking?  Look at Pennant...the talent's there but we've not yet seen the proper mentality.  Some players can handle the added pressure, others can't, and it's very hard to predict which will be which.  This is why I rate Crouch.  Not only has he made telling contributions on the pitch, he's developed the right mentality which has allowed him to make the huge step up (even with his legs! ) from Southampton to Liverpool.

Ashton's always scored goals and always will. He's scored maybe 10 goals for West Ham and Norwich due to only playing around 25 games or so but that isn't the point. People bang on about proven, proven pisses me off. If ya good enough, ya good enough. Owen and Rooney weren't proven, Drogba, Robben and Henry were not proven, Pires wasn't, Overmars wasn't... Every great player in the world wasn't proven at one stage. You're either good enough, or you aren't. Its that simple.

The fact is Bob in terms of ability the gap is massive. Ashton is a better finisher, he's a hell of a lot strong, alot better in the air, more aware of surroundings, better at holding players off, can receive the ball, turn, carry the ball, finish with power or placement, he attacks the ball at the near post, he ancipates and is also quicker than Crouch.

He's just quite simply better in every aspect of the game, the only aspect where I would say Crouch gets the edge is skill and ability to drag the ball out of the air.

You then go on to mention mentallity, well mate all i'll say to that is compare them in the FA cup. Crouch against a defence, Ashton against the best in the country, game of their lives, Ashtons the best player on the pitch, Crouch was easily one of the worst. Says everything you need to know about mentallity. Plus Ashton scored goals for a Norwich side that was doomed and he scored goals against the better sides aswell. I remember a performance against the mancs in particular where he was absoloutely class. He stood out like a saw thumb.

Crouch mate, isn't good enough. Ability counts for everything at this level. Crouch isn't a bad player, but he's not a great one and never will be. The Hatrick against Arsenal was immense, three world class goals but how often does he do that? Not enough is the answer and how many times against the good sides? Hardly ever, he gets marked out of the games usually because he's not good enough. The knee jerkers come out after a bad game, but the fact is, the knee jerkers always seem to get on the same players backs... why is that? Gerrard hardly ever has a bad game. As does Carragher/Alonso. These are the quality of players you need. Players who don't make mistakes and play poorly. Players who can play well weather the opposition do or not. Players who don't always need to be at 100% to help you win a match.

He's not even a quality player (Crouch). Ashton is. Ability is what makes you a certain type of player, mentallity and tactical play help you develop and settle aswell as undertstand tactical play. Good players don't fail in the right system's when used correctly. Its as simple as that. Players have levels of ability, regardless of what people like Dawson think, ability doesn't change from one day to the next, Ashton won't all of a sudden become fast and slim.

Its about managing to get the best out of good players using tacitcs and moves.

All this, "he's done a job" or he's "ok" or "I like him" attitude is exactly the reason we've not won the league for the last 17 years mate and I for one am starting to lose patience.

Missing out on Ashton's and Anelka's and signing Kuyt's and Crouch's etc isn't going to win you the league mate and thats the exact reason we are in the exact position we are. Simple as that.

[Stu.Murph]

yeah spewwy, agger looks awful!!! (and he calls me clueless)
maybe we didnt sign anelka because of his attitude? Dunno why we didnt sign ashton, but we didnt, get over it.

[Stu.Murph]

Anelka is a waste of space. He'll always prosper at the likes of Bolton or Man City but cannot hack it when the pressure is on at a big club, which has been proved time and again. Anelka's ability is absolutely frightening, but so was Stan Collymore's.

Ashton has done nothing to justify Stu's outlandish claims about him. I like Ashton - he's clearly a good player - but he has achieved nothing in the game compared to Peter Crouch.

JBG get a grip lad. Anelka lead Arsenal to a league title. When he played for us mate he was absoloutely outstanding.

He looked a cut above. Him and Owen were superb.

You then go on to mention achievement, ok mate, thats fine. That would mean that Gary Neville and Andy Cole are better players than Alan Shearer.

Good arguement.

[Stu.Murph]

Ashton's a decent player but Crouch would still score more goals than him over a distinct period of time.

Crouch doesn't get the respect he deserves from some quarters. In the last 15 months he's scored 41 goals for club and country.

And missed crucial chances that cost you point. United at home, Blackburn away. Loads of others and its to many times to say its a coincidence or unlucky.

That is exactly why we are where we are mate. Down to a tea. That mentallity is the problem with this club and the reason we only ever get so far.

[dawson99]

ashton 
new record please

So Stu, you dont rate agger? and u think anelka wasnt brought to our club for something other than a footballing reason? This isnt youth development. this is am ulti million pound business. Anelka wasnt brought due to his past behaviour with clubs and past experience we had with hmi whilst he was on loan.

[Stu.Murph]

Ashton's a decent player but Crouch would still score more goals than him over a distinct period of time.

Crouch doesn't get the respect he deserves from some quarters. In the last 15 months he's scored 41 goals for club and country.

Exactly. What has Ashton done?

We of all clubs should know that potential is largely meaningless. How many players have we signed over the past 15 years and been told of the "player's great potential for the future?"

The whole country laughed when Liverpool signed Crouch, yet he has handsomely repaid Liverpool's outlay on him.

JBG people don't even know what potential means. People think a player with high work rate, pace and the ability to win the ball has potential (if he just learns to pass). Ashton has a game, he has ability.

He's got the attributes. The potential comes in fitting into a system, which given he's largely similar to Crouch he'd have no problem fitting into.

At the end of the day, I'm bored of pointing this out. I'm sick of people saying to me a player can controll a ball at one club but can't at another. He's a world class passer at one club and at another. Ability makes someone a good player not form or a system. A system gives you the Lampard effect... a world class player like Gerrard could go in and replace Lampard and improve Chelsea.

It doesn't matter where you are. You still have the same attributes as a player, the same strengths and weaknesses, the same brain, the same pace and the same mould.

[Stu.Murph]

ashton 
new record please

So Stu, you dont rate agger? and u think anelka wasnt brought to our club for something other than a footballing reason? This isnt youth development. this is am ulti million pound business. Anelka wasnt brought due to his past behaviour with clubs and past experience we had with hmi whilst he was on loan.

He wasn't brought here due to past behaviour?

You really don't think things through do you?

[dawson99]

Stu, im just saying that there is something other thana footballing reason. Surely you dont know more than Rafa and all the scouts and coaches at liverpool right?Mabye when we had him on loan his behaviour was bad, putting off other players, basically being detrimental to the team...

[Stu.Murph]

Stu, im just saying that there is something other thana footballing reason. Surely you dont know more than Rafa and all the scouts and coaches at liverpool right?Mabye when we had him on loan his behaviour was bad, putting off other players, basically being detrimental to the team...

Bellamy and Pennant.

Next...

[JBG]

Anelka is a waste of space. He'll always prosper at the likes of Bolton or Man City but cannot hack it when the pressure is on at a big club, which has been proved time and again. Anelka's ability is absolutely frightening, but so was Stan Collymore's.

Ashton has done nothing to justify Stu's outlandish claims about him. I like Ashton - he's clearly a good player - but he has achieved nothing in the game compared to Peter Crouch.

JBG get a grip lad. Anelka lead Arsenal to a league title. When he played for us mate he was absoloutely outstanding.

He looked a cut above. Him and Owen were superb.

You then go on to mention achievement, ok mate, thats fine. That would mean that Gary Neville and Andy Cole are better players than Alan Shearer.

Good arguement.

Stu, you're just making stuff up to suit your arguement.

Anelka did not lead Arsenal to the title, where did you get that from?

When Arsenal won the title in 1998 Anelka was not a first team regular. He was only a kid. Bergkamp, Overmars, Adams and Petit were the main men for Arsenal that year. He was superb in 1999 - the year Arsenal lost the title - and then moved on to Madrid, where he was p.iss poor and shipped out. For that point Kanu was also superb that season for Arsenal

How many goals did Anelka score for us when he played for us? You may recall that he had a slow start although I certainly agree that there were a number of games - Birmingham in the cup, Newcastle and Ispwich both in the league - where he was immense. But thats three or four games. He may have gone on to be great for us but his track record suggests otherwise. He was ok at Man City - a medium sized club - but was terrible at Fenerbache - a big club in Turkey.

Anelka does not have the wherewithall to cope with the pressures and the expectations of a big club, in the same way Craig Bellamy cannot handle the pressure at Liverpool. These guys have exceptional talent but aren't "real" players like Michael Owen or Xabi Alonso who can handle the pressures and expectations.

Your arguement about A. Cole, Gary Neville and Alan Shearer I don't understand. Of course Shearer is the best player of the three. My point is that Ashton needs to string a couple of seasons together and score some goals before we can get excited about him, the same way as all good players do. People got excited about Emile Heskey when he first broke into the side at Leicester and look what happened.

In fact, when I think about Ashton I am reminded of Kevin Davies, a similar player. When Davies burst onto the scene in the mid 1990s people were wetting themselves about his potential, Blackburn went out and spent big money on him. Loads of people called him the new Alan Shearer but he stunk the place out at Blackburn and it is only in the past two or three seasons that he has resurrected his career at Bolton, albeit having lost whatever little pace he had due to injuries he had over the years.

I agree with you Stu in that Ashton is a good player, I just disagree to what extent. He may go on to be a top class player, but for the time being he is just another wannabe. As I said, he's about at the level Kevin Davies was when Davies was at Southampton: a very good player with a big future ahead of him if he makes the right decisions and steers clear of injury, but anything could happen. He could be playing at Sheffield UTD in 5 years time, its just as likely.

I suspect Stu that you over rate Ashton because you previously  said that in your youth you played against him in a reserve match.

[Stu.Murph]

Anelka does not have the wherewithall to cope with the pressures and the expectations of a big club, in the same way Craig Bellamy cannot handle the pressure at Liverpool. These guys have exceptional talent but aren't "real" players like Michael Owen or Xabi Alonso who can handle the pressures and expectations.

Your arguement about A. Cole, Gary Neville and Alan Shearer I don't understand. Of course Shearer is the best player of the three. My point is that Ashton needs to string a couple of seasons together and score some goals before we can get excited about him, the same way as all good players do. People got excited about Emile Heskey when he first broke into the side at Leicester and look what happened.

In fact, when I think about Ashton I am reminded of Kevin Davies, a similar player. When Davies burst onto the scene in the mid 1990s people were wetting themselves about his potential, Blackburn went out and spent big money on him. Loads of people called him the new Alan Shearer but he stunk the place out at Blackburn and it is only in the past two or three seasons that he has resurrected his career at Bolton, albeit having lost whatever little pace he had due to injuries he had over the years.

I agree with you Stu in that Ashton is a good player, I just disagree to what extent. He may go on to be a top class player, but for the time being he is just another wannabe. As I said, he's about at the level Kevin Davies was when Davies was at Southampton: a very good player with a big future ahead of him if he makes the right decisions and steers clear of injury, but anything could happen. He could be playing at Sheffield UTD in 5 years time, its just as likely.

I suspect Stu that you over rate Ashton because you previously  said that in your youth you played against him in a reserve match.

I don't think Bellamy's problem is the pressure at all mate. I think he's just not as good as people wanted him to be. The fact is scoring goals is alot easier for a pacey striker when you play for a "lesser side" common fact. When you play for a smaller side and have pace you have half a chance. I'm sure you can work that out. If you want me to explain I will do using both Andy Johnson and Craig Bellamy.

You then say Ashton needs to have a few good sesaons? Mate? He's had good seasons everywhere he's been bar this one. Crouch on the other hand done nothing apart from 3/4 of a decent season for Southampton ONCE!. I'm not saying Crouch is poor, he clearly isn't but he's not top notch.

To compare him Davies who has never been and never will be an international standard player is in my opinion a joke and I am not even going to comment on that at any great length and I dont mean that offensively.

JBG, I play fairly regularly with Joey Barton aswell mate, if anything it opens your eyes as to how good some of these players are and how good others aren't. Basically you watch players and you see them do things and think... what would such and such do there... having seen Ashton at first hand puts me in a good place to judge I would say, aswell as watching the lad properly.

There are players out there who will wrongly never play for big teams and clubs. Bullard, Taylor, Ashton, Nugent. All excellent and pure footballers but people aren't willing to take a "chance" on them. Meaning they completely fail to recognise there ability. FFS Chimbonda was in Wigan's team against for me the only right back in the league who's as good as Gary Neville.

[JBG]

Maybe you were still reading the Beano and wearing short pants when Davies came on the scene Stu   but he was highly rated. He was easily as highly rated as Ashton is now. Blackburn signed him as a direct replacement for Alan Shearer who was the best centre forward in the world at the time.

My point is that Davies simply wasn't as good as the hype had it, and by extension my point is that Ashton could just as easily turn out like Davies did, a journeyman centre forward. I hope Ashton works out as I like him as a player, but my point is that in football the odds are largely stacked against him.

Again, to repeat myself, while I rate Ashton, you seem to be saying that Rafa fouled up by not signing Ashton and went out and bought Crouch instead, as if Ashton was an absolute home banker. Ashton could well go on and be the best centre forward England has produced since Alan Shearer, or he could end up like Kevin Davies.

[Stu.Murph]

Maybe you were still reading the Beano and wearing short pants when Davies came on the scene Stu   but he was highly rated. He was easily as highly rated as Ashton is now. Blackburn signed him as a direct replacement for Alan Shearer who was the best centre forward in the world at the time.

My point is that Davies simply wasn't as good as the hype had it, and by extension my point is that Ashton could just as easily turn out like Davies did, a journeyman centre forward. I hope Ashton works out as I like him as a player, but my point is that in football the odds are largely stacked against him.

Again, to repeat myself, while I rate Ashton, you seem to be saying that Rafa fouled up by not signing Ashton and went out and bought Crouch instead, as if Ashton was an absolute home banker. Ashton could well go on and be the best centre forward England has produced since Alan Shearer, or he could end up like Kevin Davies.

JBG, I wasn't reading the beano mate... to be fair I probably was, still do... its boss...

I remember Davies clearly. I also remember seeing an "England 2002" team which was made up around 1997 and he was in it...

The fact is though even then I could see he was only decent as he is now. Its just then he also had pace as you said. Highly rated to me means all. I decide who I rate highly, not the media or other managers I couldn't give a toss what most of them say, granted i'll listen, but I'll form my own opinion, certainly not theres.

I rate Ryan Taylor and Joey Barton mate, others don't because they aren't fasionable. I also rate Bullard, Again, not fasionable.

The fact is with Ashton he's an international player mate. Not an average one as Davies was. I've said it before I don't listen to hype on a player. I didn't with Gonzalez, I probably invented it for Pennant who I overated slightly but stand by what I said about him being the best english right winger and still a very good player... who is finally starting to settle. Pennant's attitude is clearly a problem and something which I didn't take into account.

Ashton isn't overated by me mate, I can see it in his game clearly what he can do. More so than Pennant... He's also got the attitude. When you're at a match, good players and good things get an applause by the knowledgable ones. I remember watching Owen and nearly everything he done throughout some matches people clapped. Its the same with Ashton, also, its all well and good seeing someone like Crouch hold of Daniel Gabbidon, but can he do it against Toure, the answer until the other day was no. He always looked out of his depth. I think the other day was a case of Crouch having a great day and Toure having one of his worst, certainly the worst I've ever seen. He just didn't look switched on.

Ashton's done it against Everyone I've seen. Beaten different players in different area's. Hyypia in the air... and for pace ... Hyypia for Strength, Carragher for strength... Hyypia and Carragher with Skill...  He's held off Terry and beat him in the air consistenly over 90 mins, he's done with Ferdinand...