Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I can't blame the people who are dissapointed with Rafa. Still I think that insulting him like a clown is OTT. But you can't blame me neither to support him. If I supported him 2 months ago, sorry, but a few games won't change that, as I understand that any manager will have to go through a crisis at some point. I don't know anyone who hasn't.

Sabes as I've said earlier, there is nothing wrong with defending Rafa or your own stance on him. You've done it for four years and have made a brilliant job of it. Defending your stance though doesn't and shouldn't mean attacking those who disagree with it. You've never gone down that road, and neither has Bob either.

Too many on here have though, poured scorn and personal insults upon anybody who has been weak enough to allow the odd doubt to creep in. I had some of that myself again at the start of this thread and it does get a bit tiring sometimes.

FWIW yet again I didn't explain myself too well at the start of the thread, in that my point was not that the pro-Rafa people had gone quiet, it was more that the anti Rafa people (and not the d!ckhead WUM's) didn't even really bother saying much either. It was like we were all resigned to the fact that such things happen, we were no longer surprised by it.

Anyhow mate, defend away till your hearts content, you do it well. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed at the end of the season should we change managers and perhaps continue to use Alonso sparingly that you continue to contribute around here, and I'm sure you will.

[JoeTerp]

Another point of mine is that consistency for consistency's sake in my opinion trumps change for change's sake.  We are never going to have the funds that Chelsea have put into their squad, so a slower build up of smart moves and consistency will be the key to reaching that extra echelon of quality that is needed for consistent performances across the league campaign.


Another thing that I like about Rafa is his eye on the future, we had won two youth cups on the bounce, and beat Arsenal in this cup run, and we currently are top of the ressie league despite not playing any "fringe" first team players.  However, the frustrating opposite side of the coin to this is that it seems nearly impossible for young players to make the breakthrough into our squad due to the amount of fringe players that we have that would be higher up in the pecking order

[Sabre]

I'm just curious here as to what the people who support the manager would like to see happen. How long do we give him or is there no time limit? How do we measure success, or is there no measurement?

We have done this before haven't we?

And I think we already reached a consensus on this not long ago. I think virtually no-one in the Rafa camp gave him unlimited support. Some of us talked about the end of his contract and see where we are, some others talked about another season, but no-one talked about unlimited support.

Myself I come from a place where I've seen 3 or 4 managers in a season so I'm very tired of that sacking a manager in a moment of anger. I see that's not good for any club. I decide to change manager when a prudent time passes and I analyse a trajectory. Rafa came to finnish a proyect of some years, and at that point I'll evaluate how much better we are and how much closer we are of the goals. Goals that can be measured of course: league position table and cups. Right now I feel we are in a bad moment. A minimum. But I have trust that if he's let to work he'll have us better when he ends his contract here. If I didn't I'd want to him sacked, because like you, I want the good of the team.

Our disagreement has old roots. You bigmick, thought last year already that we had been having a team good enough to challenge for the title. Since the timer started earlier for you, it's natural you have less patience now. Myself and some others feel that we've been progresively increasing but we lacked something to be real challengers until this season. So this season is the first one really dissapointing.

I think we can disagree on this things without being disrespectful between fellow fans.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

So I take it we can't blame Benitez for what's happening on the pitch, but we can blame the yanks. Right now I understand the methods. Can't believe it took me so long to catch on. Silly me eh?

What a load of bollox. These players play to Benitez' tactics, in his formation and at least 7 out of every 11 are his signings. Where does he fail to take the blame? It's obvious the players have the ability, as we've shown in a handful of games this year. It's OBVIOUS that Benitez is tactically sound at times, as we've proven in a handful of games. (see me praising Benitez, I'm not on a which hunt to have him removed) The blame lies with one man however, Rafael Benitez. If he had us playing every single game like we did against Newcastle away this year, we'd walk away with the league and we'd walk with it Rafael Benitez as manager. That game happened AFTER the yanks and his "bust up" so you can't say he wasn't under the same circumstances, because he was. He tries to be to clever far to often and eight times out of ten he puts two and two together and makes five. If he kept us playing that standard of football, and that style of football, we'd of walked the league. We won 3-0 away to a team where most clubs won't come away with all three points. Arsenal certainly didn't. And the score may of been 3-0 but Torres alone missed five sitters, you know what else happened in that match, Dirk Kuyt scored. So we hammer a team, we can afford to miss sitters, we were entertaining, Benitez got it spot on and Kuyt scored. Why can't we play like that every week?

It's easy to say Newcastle were poor, but they were poor because we were so good. No team in the world could of handled us that day. If we played like that for every game, I wouldn't find a fault in Benitez other than the rotation bollox. But if he kept the same pattern of play, the rotation of players wouldn't be as noticeable.

So finally, I'm blaming Benitez for the season because it is his fault. Those who try and justify it not being his fault will never see the bad in him. In 30 years they'll still be banging on about Istanbul. Those who blame the American owners, won't admit that we playing this badly well before the yanks took over. Those who blame time, are just fools, as four years is enough time to of built a squad that should be up there. Those who blame money are also fools as I've proven other sides seem to manage. Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager. He's the manager and managers rightfully take the blame. He works with these players day in day out, so it's down to him.

Ta for the nights of brilliance Rafa, but your time is up and now you have to go.

[Bammo]

I'm just curious here as to what the people who support the manager would like to see happen. How long do we give him or is there no time limit? How do we measure success, or is there no measurement? How much money does he need to be given in the Summer assuming he stays to make us competitive, or are we competitive enough already, or doesn't it really matter if we're competitive? If Hicks decides to stay for ten years, do we stick with Rafa until he's gone and then give him a proper go with a new owner? Having being accused myself many times this season of being fickle, a knee jerker, disloyal etc etc I am now wondering what those who are staunch, loyal, have faith, not fickle, not a knee jerker etc etc have in mind. Having been asked "well who else is there?" and earlier in this thread "what do you do for a living again" my questions go out to the "In Rafa we trusters". My feelings are and always have been that I want the team to do well. If it is to be achieved with Rafa at the helm then fantastic. Just let me know what you've got in mind if you've got a minute.

I'm not as staunch in my support of Rafa as some but I definitely think he should be given next season so I thought I'd answer some of Big Mick's questions (great post by the way).

For me, Rafa needs to buy the following in the summer:

a) A world-class left winger. Someone who can run at defenders with pace.
b) A creative 2nd striker. Rafa seems to want to play this, forcing Kuyt/Voronin to do it when that isn't their game so he should buy someone who can do it.

What he needs to do next season:

c) Play on-form players in their correct positions. If the best choice is a youth player then they should play.
d) Push further up the field. We fail to maintain pressure against clubs and this causes us not to kill games off.
e) Play with width. This is our biggest problem. Teams can easily work out we're attacking through the centre so play compact and restrict decent opportunities. When we've played with width and pace (Derby, Newcastle, Besiktas) we've looked great.

Staff:

f) get an assistant. Someone with passion who can befriend the players. It's public knowledge (thanks to autobiographies) that he doesn't get close to players. Pako was his middle-man but now he's gone Rafa must find it difficult to relate to players.

With regards to being competetive, he needs to put in a title challenge. The only other competition that we need to progress in is the CL for the money. Don't get me wrong, I want us to win everything but his rotation/resting/tactics should focus on the league then CL.

It seems like a lot to ask but I'm sure he knows it himself. Now he needs to prove to us that it was the owners/behind-the-scenes-strife stopping him and not his own stubbornness.

[Sabre]

John I respect you as a fan. But the debate on Rafa is too white, or too black. And the reality is grey.

I think you are very angry because you love this team. And I can't blame you for that. In the game thread I've explained two things that are decissions of Rafa and can be charged to him. The selection of Itandje, and how we take corners and who take them.

But football is also concentration and attitude mate, and that's up to the players. You can't explain a passive defence in their goals with Rafa. You have to ask questions to the players aswell.

[john1992]

[quote]So I take it we can't blame Benitez for what's happening on the pitch, but we can blame the yanks. Right now I understand the methods. Can't believe it took me so long to catch on. Silly me eh?

What a load of bollox. These players play to Benitez' tactics, in his formation and at least 7 out of every 11 are his signings. Where does he fail to take the blame? It's obvious the players have the ability, as we've shown in a handful of games this year. It's OBVIOUS that Benitez is tactically sound at times, as we've proven in a handful of games. (see me praising Benitez, I'm not on a which hunt to have him removed) The blame lies with one man however, Rafael Benitez. If he had us playing every single game like we did against Newcastle away this year, we'd walk away with the league and we'd walk with it Rafael Benitez as manager. That game happened AFTER the yanks and his "bust up" so you can't say he wasn't under the same circumstances, because he was. He tries to be to clever far to often and eight times out of ten he puts two and two together and makes five. If he kept us playing that standard of football, and that style of football, we'd of walked the league. We won 3-0 away to a team where most clubs won't come away with all three points. Arsenal certainly didn't. And the score may of been 3-0 but Torres alone missed five sitters, you know what else happened in that match, Dirk Kuyt scored. So we hammer a team, we can afford to miss sitters, we were entertaining, Benitez got it spot on and Kuyt scored. Why can't we play like that every week?

It's easy to say Newcastle were poor, but they were poor because we were so good. No team in the world could of handled us that day. If we played like that for every game, I wouldn't find a fault in Benitez other than the rotation bollox. But if he kept the same pattern of play, the rotation of players wouldn't be as noticeable.

So finally, I'm blaming Benitez for the season because it is his fault. Those who try and justify it not being his fault will never see the bad in him. In 30 years they'll still be banging on about Istanbul. Those who blame the American owners, won't admit that we playing this badly well before the yanks took over. Those who blame time, are just fools, as four years is enough time to of built a squad that should be up there. Those who blame money are also fools as I've proven other sides seem to manage. Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager. He's the manager and managers rightfully take the blame. He works with these players day in day out, so it's down to him.

Ta for the nights of brilliance Rafa, but your time is up and now you have to go.
[quote]


some good points there john and i have to say i agree with you

EDIT: why do my quotes never work o well you get the idea

[bigmick]

Another point of mine is that consistency for consistency's sake in my opinion trumps change for change's sake.  We are never going to have the funds that Chelsea have put into their squad, so a slower build up of smart moves and consistency will be the key to reaching that extra echelon of quality that is needed for consistent performances across the league campaign.

To be honest Joe this is by far the most compelling reason in my view for keeping the manager. Sacking the boss generally doesn't in the long term pay-off, it's a proven fact. Liverpool are not a sacking club, and I am not a sacking fan. My instinct is that if it is at all possible, you should stick with the mananger.

That said though we sacked Houllier and won the Champions League with what was almost totally his team so it can pay dividends sometimes. Also when you are in a situation when the demise is such that it is impossible to imagine a climb back, a change has to be considered.

In the main though, if you were to take the view that rafa is to stay, the reason you have mentioned is just about the only one which makes any sense to me at all.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Sabre the respect is mutual mate, but the Intandje thing for me is a silly arguement. He's our cup keeper, he has been all season, and nobody complained when he had a blinder against Chelsea in the Carling Cup (and we still went out)

The corners, for me that comes down to training. I don't believe they do train basic skills on the training pitch anymore. I think they run, and run quite hard. But basic skills seem to have disappeared from our side. Now I can't be certain but I think Benitez takes the training sessions. If they're not training properly that will show on the pitch. But not for one minute am I blaming Benitez for anybody who can't cross a ball when it's dead. Anybody who's played football can do that. So I have no excuses for the players on issues like this. I think you're right that the players must take their share of the responsibility, as must the owners, but Benitez has to take the lieing share. It's his side, his tactics, his formations. His fault.

[nobybob]

So I take it we can't blame Benitez for what's happening on the pitch, but we can blame the yanks. Right now I understand the methods. Can't believe it took me so long to catch on. Silly me eh?

What a load of bollox. These players play to Benitez' tactics, in his formation and at least 7 out of every 11 are his signings. Where does he fail to take the blame? It's obvious the players have the ability, as we've shown in a handful of games this year. It's OBVIOUS that Benitez is tactically sound at times, as we've proven in a handful of games. (see me praising Benitez, I'm not on a which hunt to have him removed) The blame lies with one man however, Rafael Benitez. If he had us playing every single game like we did against Newcastle away this year, we'd walk away with the league and we'd walk with it Rafael Benitez as manager. That game happened AFTER the yanks and his "bust up" so you can't say he wasn't under the same circumstances, because he was. He tries to be to clever far to often and eight times out of ten he puts two and two together and makes five. If he kept us playing that standard of football, and that style of football, we'd of walked the league. We won 3-0 away to a team where most clubs won't come away with all three points. Arsenal certainly didn't. And the score may of been 3-0 but Torres alone missed five sitters, you know what else happened in that match, Dirk Kuyt scored. So we hammer a team, we can afford to miss sitters, we were entertaining, Benitez got it spot on and Kuyt scored. Why can't we play like that every week?

It's easy to say Newcastle were poor, but they were poor because we were so good. No team in the world could of handled us that day. If we played like that for every game, I wouldn't find a fault in Benitez other than the rotation bollox. But if he kept the same pattern of play, the rotation of players wouldn't be as noticeable.

So finally, I'm blaming Benitez for the season because it is his fault. Those who try and justify it not being his fault will never see the bad in him. In 30 years they'll still be banging on about Istanbul. Those who blame the American owners, won't admit that we playing this badly well before the yanks took over. Those who blame time, are just fools, as four years is enough time to of built a squad that should be up there. Those who blame money are also fools as I've proven other sides seem to manage. Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager. He's the manager and managers rightfully take the blame. He works with these players day in day out, so it's down to him.

Ta for the nights of brilliance Rafa, but your time is up and now you have to go.

some good points there john and i have to say i agree with you

EDIT: why do my quotes never work o well you get the idea

he second quote m8 the one at the end is missing a / ( a slash ) or what ever you call that so it should look like [/qquote] exept only 1 q . In other words press the quote button  to start quoting and then again to end but this time add a / before the letter q

[LFC2007]

become a Club that USED to win things

Thats what we are mate.....we haven't won anything since 2006 and we are not likely to in the forseeable future unless changes are made.

2 years is nothing, because i can see a time when it will become 10 years. Chopping and changing manager every season or two will become our way soon if we are not careful. We will spiral into debt and lose all our top players, it is very likely, and IMO i think supporting the man in charge and at least allowing him a clear season with all the players he has assembled and without all the sh!t is what is best for the Club.

The alternative i would accept (see i'm not in love with Rafa) is Mourinho, but for the life of me i can't see it, there are 350M reasons why he won't want to come here.

I think we are more likely to lose all our best players if we continue as we are mate. Do you think the players are happy never even mounting a challenge year after year in the league, and going out of cups in such a disgracefull fashion.

4 seasons is long enough to expect to see some progress. Yes we have seen a little.... in his first season we went out to Burnley and finished 5, this season it was Barnsley and hopefully 4th if we play out of our skins. 

Progress?

Well 6 months ago they were happy to sign long term contracts, and we were considered a good enough prospect for Torres to sign for us. There was at least some belief for the manager and his methods then. Had they wanted the players in question would probably have the pick of any of the top clubs in Europe.

Like us they all thought we had the team to win (or challenge ) for the title. Like us they were badly wrong. I don't think its any surprise that Alonso and Reina are now "homesick", Torres is already talking about how he would like to play for Milan etc etc.

Where do you read such tripe?

Try reading a newspaper,

I do thanks.

like maybe the Daily Post or about 4 others than ran the stories.

The rumour mill section of the Daily post?

Let's look at the quotes:

S@int said:

"Torres is already talking about how he would like to play for Milan"

The quote in the Daily post says:

"“I am very grateful to Milan because, since I was a child, I dreamed of playing for such a big club. But the interest of Milan has never pushed to the point of having to decide whether to go or not."

"At this moment, I would not go. I am happy in Liverpool and The Premier League and I hope to stay for a long time. Never say never, though.”

You could you spin that story any way you like, e.g.:

Headline: "Torres happy in Liverpool"

Subheadline: "He hopes to stay for a long time".


As it happens, given our predicament, it makes greater journalistic sense to take the 'Torres linked with exit' line - because it's what will sell, however erroneous that headline actually is.

Utter tripe? Yes (IMO of course).

Or maybe they are "making a mountain out of a molehill" like you said when news of Gillett and Hicks disagreement with Rafa first broke
Now all of a sudden its one of the main reasons that our season has crumbled 

You'd imagine given that we've been victims of the biggest media lie in history, a more cautious approach would be taken to what's spun in the media.

That's exactly why I was, and continue to be wary of incendiary media reports, legitimately so.

The comment you quoted came shortly after the Rafa press conference, and others also expressed their disdain for what appeared to be a blowing out of all proportion of certain comments.

However, now, after events became clearer, it's obvious something happened. Even still, if you read the Torres interview that took place a month or so ago, he backs up my point that the media don't approach 50% of the truth (words to that effect I believe) - when referring to the situation with our owners.

End of discussion - FACT.

[JoeTerp]

Another point of mine is that consistency for consistency's sake in my opinion trumps change for change's sake.  We are never going to have the funds that Chelsea have put into their squad, so a slower build up of smart moves and consistency will be the key to reaching that extra echelon of quality that is needed for consistent performances across the league campaign.

To be honest Joe this is by far the most compelling reason in my view for keeping the manager. Sacking the boss generally doesn't in the long term pay-off, it's a proven fact. Liverpool are not a sacking club, and I am not a sacking fan. My instinct is that if it is at all possible, you should stick with the mananger.

That said though we sacked Houllier and won the Champions League with what was almost totally his team so it can pay dividends sometimes. Also when you are in a situation when the demise is such that it is impossible to imagine a climb back, a change has to be considered.

In the main though, if you were to take the view that rafa is to stay, the reason you have mentioned is just about the only one which makes any sense to me at all.

especially when you consider the stakes. The turmoil the club is in. S@int loves/hates pointing out the debt on the club, which increases the pressure to make and do well in the CL.  A new manager, starting over with a new regime could be very risky and every fan would have to recognize there would be a real chance of us not finishing in the top 4 or 5 because there would be just so many unknowns, and there would be also a very small chance of winning the league in that first year.

rafa's overall buying shrewdness has improved the team's quality as a whole every year (although the performances may say otherwise) so sticking with Rafa for another year would most likely at worst improve the team slightly for the next manager to take over, but at the same time you could be risking "wasting" another year of Carra and Gerrard who aren't getting any younger and ruining their chances at winning the league my sticking with someone who "obviously" is incapable of doing so.

This is why I suggest G&H or whoever is in charge of the decision have a VERY long talk with rafa after the season about his future plans and to hear from the horses mouth what his mistakes have been and what lessons he has learned.  I am sure that he must know that he hasn't done everything right.

[Kharhaz]

Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager.

Does that include Gerrard? or any other of the midfielders? It seems that the drought runs through the entire team at times including Torres. As a manager what can you do about that? you can train all week but if it doesnt happen on the day, in which we have had a few of them days, what can he do? The only option now is to get rid of Kuyt and Voronin and bring in another class striker, keep crouch and try bringing one of the young lads in as 4th choice.
Like I said earlier, the blame lies both with the manager and the players.

[john1992]

you can train all week but if it doesnt happen on the day, in which we have had a few of them days, what can he do?

This must show that the current traning sessions are unneffective and need to be changed

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Those who blame the players have to ask themselves "who bought these players" "who plays these players out of position" "who complains about missed chances, but still insists on playing people who can't take chances" If you get the same answer I did when I asked myself those questions then surely you'll agree, Benitez isn't up to the job here as a league manager.

Does that include Gerrard? or any other of the midfielders? It seems that the drought runs through the entire team at times including Torres. As a manager what can you do about that? you can train all week but if it doesnt happen on the day, in which we have had a few of them days, what can he do? The only option now is to get rid of Kuyt and Voronin and bring in another class striker, keep crouch and try bringing one of the young lads in as 4th choice.
Like I said earlier, the blame lies both with the manager and the players.

Well correct me if I'm wrong but every manager in England has three substitutions that they can make...am I correct?

If it's not happening for a player on a day, you change them, whether it's goalscoring, every pass going astray or every tackle is giving away a foul. If these things happen, you change it. But Benitez doesn't believe in that way of thinking. He likes to make changes 70 mins into a game so the oncoming player has only 20 minutes to get used to the pace and then try and change the game istantly. Benitez also likes to bring off those who are playing well like he did on Saturday. Babel was playing out of his skin, so he gets brought off. Tactical genius there by Mr Benitez.