Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

Obviously, it's got to be considered a poor season if a team of our calibre is eliminated from the Champions League at the group stages and has a record of 9 wins, 3 draws and 8 losses in all competitions so far this season.  There are numerous factors that have contributed to this poor record and they are worth discussing honestly, openly and as objectively as possible.  This is not a thread for posturing, blanket throwing, hurling abuse, one liners or any of that nonsense.  This is a thread for people to share their thoughts as to where things have gone wrong so far and how some of these problems might be addressed.  So, check your 'pro' and 'anti' badges at the door and try and generate some reasonably balanced discussion about the current state of things.

[Bad Bob]

Oh, did I mention that I will delete posts and use cards as necessary to keep this thread focused on football discussion rather than board politics?  No exceptions.

[account deleted by request]

I think balance is the key word Bob. Defensively we seem to have lost the right balance along the back four. Trying to use attacking full backs with slow (Carra) central defenders was always going to be a problem.  Rafa has tried switching Carra and Skrtel but even that didn't work too well, as Skrtel besides his ball watching isn't the greatest positional defender either. We also tried three at the back, which didn't work any better.

The midfield balance while perfectly suited to teams that come on to us are both quite small which forces our defenders to step up out of position to win the high balls. Their limited passing ability while a tad overplayed on here IS a factor, Gerrard and the wide players have to drop deeper to receive the ball, which in turn tends to isolate our striker.

Our wide players (Kuyt and Benny ) both come in side and both lack genuine pace so it tends to slow down our attacks while reducing the area that defenders need to cover. While this also gives us the opportunity to push forward our fullbacks, it also reduces our opportunities for quick breaks.

Up front we just haven't been creating space or too many chances. When Torres is fit, he is so good that he can make and take the half chances but when we have to rely on lesser lights it becomes a real problem. I know some people will argue that we have scored a lot of goals so there is no problem, but most of our goals where scored in 3 games.

I think if we had signed Barry, or an equivolent player (or even if Aquilani had been fit ) we would have still have had problems defensively, but without a more creative player it has just emphasised our problem, as front to back the balance is wrong.

Short term solutions :- Until Aquilani is fit drop Gerrard back to central midfield, drop Kuyt and play Benny on the right, Riera on the left and hope and pray that Carra's form picks up.

The main difficulty now is restoring the players confidence and getting them motivated again. We have seen little of the Liverpool fight and spirit in the team of late, its time some of them showed how much it means to them, rather than talking a good fight in the press.

[Kash_Mountain]

I  just think that over reliance on SG is coming back to haunt us. If he (and Torres for that matter) are not in the side, then no one seems to be able to up their game/have no cofidence.

We need good balance throughout. And instead of having one player as a talisman (SG), maybe we should have a minimum of 4. I'm sure SG feels frustrated at the fact that it is he that always has to bail the rest of the team out when things are not going well.

In addition, I also think that subtitutes should be brought on a earlier when things are not going well on the pitch instead of the 75 - 80 min. Maybe around the 60 min mark would be ideal. It allows more time to get something out of the game. I noticed that subs are brought on late, we seem to the rely on hoofing the ball up just in case we get lucky. This is not sensible.


I'm not sure that zonal marking is heping the defence. Maybe this needs to change to man marking? 

I don't like the fact that we have to defensive midfielders on the pitch. I think we should have only one and use the other to go forward to help out the strikers when ever possible.

[Igor Zidane]

Your short team solution is pretty fair saint ,there 's only one little drawback though lash . THe players you've metioned have to be fit and in form for it to work . Otherwise we've got to stick with the players that' are available to rafa and whom are playing wellish . Kuyts not been playing well this season , but i'd still have in on the right in the derby . With abit of luck we might have a back four who's played together more than once this season .So i'd stick with Johnson carra agger and insua at the back . In midfield  i would be very suprised if Rafa starts Aqualani in a usually very physical derby . So i'd go with Kuyt  Mascherano ,Lucas and Benayoun  . Front two is all dependant on fitness .If Torres is fit ,i'd have  Gerrard Behind Torres. If Torres is not fit 'i have Gerrard behind N'gog .


As for what's gone wrong this season ,well it's plain ans simple as the nose on your face . Injuries ,lack of investement ,Bad decision making by the manager , bad luck (beachballs ffs ) and finally more injuries . I make no apologies Whatsoever at laying 75% of the blame squarley at the owners door .

[aCe']

Ill get it started...

Lets just get a few points established first, atleast imo...

-Lucas is nowhere near good enough... was said before the season started, and something should have done about the situation then... We had Gerrard and Mascherano in most games, they should have paired up in the middle of the park... If we wanted to keep the 4-5-1 then we should have relied on Benny down the middle behind Torres... As things turned out, we didnt, and we suffered for it...

-A backup for Torres... Was probably the top priority for most before Alonso's sale became official... Its astounding really how a manager could go into a season knowing his only credible striker was injury prone, and that the 2 backup players he has are very poor considering the standards... Would have expected a plan B from Rafa if he was so determined to not waste any money on a backup FW.. Maybe have Kuyt and Babel as the forward pairing when torres is missing ?! 

**********

Anyways... now for the other stuff...

- I think we've missed Riera, left a huge gap his absence to be honest... He gives the side alot of balance and helps no end with our retaining of possession against most sides... When you have players likes Lucas and Mascherano in the side you need an attacking outlet that would be willing to take control from deeper within... Riera offers that, Kuyt doesnt, Benny does it sometimes but not consistently enough (in terms of positioning specifically, and overall level of performance generally)... 

- We've lacked drive and urgency... This isnt down to the sale of Alonso though, its mostly down to the injuries and loss of form... The only players we have in the side who seem to provide any sense of urgency when we need it are Johnson, Gerrard and Torres... Theres an overriding nonchalant attitude in the squad nowadays, with not many players seemingly bothered in many games... We can argue all day about whether the manager is to blame for this or not, but the truth remains that more often than not this season, we havent been able to change the course of the game when the chips are down...

- Kuyt... not for me... Offers very little, doesnt do the job required of him, isnt any good at playing the counter attack.... Lets be a little honest here, the only time he'll ever have a good spell at the side is when everyone else is having a good spell... All his good work comes when hes not on the ball... Has good positioning inside the box and works hard to get himself on the end of things... Get him on the ball when we're trying to build anything up though, and hes an absolute disaster ! Good player to have against the stronger sides or when your other attacking options are on form, but as an indicidual player hes average at best... time to get rid imo, been one of the reasons why we've performed as bad as we did early on...

- one last thing... i hear many talking about our defense being the main reason why we are where we are... Taking all the blame off the likes of Kuyt and Lucas simply because they arent defenders .. I think our main problem hasnt simply been our back 4 in terms of personnel, its been the system as a whole... As mentioned above, Lucas was always going to be the center of attention given the position he plays... With the 2 attacking fullbacks and 5 in the middle we were always going to play a patient attacking game with much focus on possession and wearing other sides down... We simply havent been able to do that... Werent dominant enough and we were made to pay for it... Dont get me wrong, the defense has been a shambles, but i blame the central midfielders and wingers just as much for failing to take some of the pressure off our back 4 in many occasions...

[Scottbot]

- one last thing... i hear many talking about our defense being the main reason why we are where we are... Taking all the blame off the likes of Kuyt and Lucas simply because they arent defenders .. I think our main problem hasnt simply been our back 4 in terms of personnel, its been the system as a whole... As mentioned above, Lucas was always going to be the center of attention given the position he plays... With the 2 attacking fullbacks and 5 in the middle we were always going to play a patient attacking game with much focus on possession and wearing other sides down... We simply havent been able to do that... Werent dominant enough and we were made to pay for it... Dont get me wrong, the defense has been a shambles, but i blame the central midfielders and wingers just as much for failing to take some of the pressure off our back 4 in many occasions...

It's a good shout mate, i've been bemoaning our defence for a while now but there is no doubt that it is a collective responsibility. Of course, we've missed Alonso's tackles which were by far the most overlooked aspect of his game, throw in the fact we aren't keeping the ball like we used to, Johnson is not the defender that Arbeloa was, Insua for all his potential is not as solid as the oft injured Aurelio, kuyt has looked tired and i think teams seem to be less worried about coming at us these past 10 games.

[Bad Bob]

It's a good shout mate, i've been bemoaning our defence for a while now but there is no doubt that it is a collective responsibility. Of course, we've missed Alonso's tackles which were by far the most overlooked aspect of his game, throw in the fact we aren't keeping the ball like we used to, Johnson is not the defender that Arbeloa was, Insua for all his potential is not as solid as the oft injured Aurelio, kuyt has looked tired and i think teams seem to be less worried about coming at us these past 10 games.

Scott, do you think Johnson has been poor defending this season or is a situation where he leaves Carra more exposed than Arbeloa did?  I must say that I've been impressed with his defending this season.  Perhaps that has much to do with a lack of expectation, as the main talking when we signed him is that he's great going forward but prone to lapses at the back.  Well, I haven't seen too many lapses to be perfectly honest.  I think he's a lot more accomplished at defending than some give him credit for.  With that said, there's no doubt he pours forward more than Arbeloa ever did and that will open some gaps at the back.

[Igor Zidane]

Not going to do that russian doll quote thing and i don't know how to do what scotts just done above .

SO THIS IS FOR YOU ACE 

Lucas has been one of our most consistantly better players this season . I totally disagree with you comments regarding him .If he put away his chances we'd all be singing his praises now , he's afar better player that youn and many others give him credit for .


Again you blame Lucas for our defensive frailties ,but that's so unfair . Lucas is trying to be a up and down midfielder and not a sitter like mascherano , he's getting better and better at it . The defense has been poor this season , but i'd lay that squarley at the defenders feet and injuries of course .
The reason no back up for torres was bought was money plain and simple . Rafa had spent his quota on Johnson (top buy) and Aqualani(don't know yet ) to replace alonso . He was selling Voronin and THe doss ,but he was'snt guaranteed the dosh for new players . So he had to keep them . Sami wanted more than a one year deal and rafa wasn't prepared to offer him more ,so with what little money he had left he bought the greek . Yer get what you pay for .

Why break the Torres /Gerrard partnership up that has worked so well ,it doesn't make sense . They 've both been injured so that's been taken out of Rafa's hands anyway .

Reira when fit (not a lot ) has been poorley out of form for about 3-4 months , although he does bring balance to the side . So why start him if he bring nothing to the side in an attacking sense .

The kuyt bit i agree with , except that i'd have him in every time ahead of the likes of Babel and Vorinin , because you know your going 100% every game from him .. Not always quality but , works and tries his bollox off .

[aCe']

Not going to do that russian doll quote thing and i don't know how to do what scotts just done above .

SO THIS IS FOR YOU ACE 

Lucas has been one of our most consistantly better players this season . I totally disagree with you comments regarding him .If he put away his chances we'd all be singing his praises now , he's afar better player that youn and many others give him credit for .


Again you blame Lucas for our defensive frailties ,but that's so unfair . Lucas is trying to be a up and down midfielder and not a sitter like mascherano , he's getting better and better at it . The defense has been poor this season , but i'd lay that squarley at the defenders feet and injuries of course .
The reason no back up for torres was bought was money plain and simple . Rafa had spent his quota on Johnson (top buy) and Aqualani(don't know yet ) to replace alonso . He was selling Voronin and THe doss ,but he was'snt guaranteed the dosh for new players . So he had to keep them . Sami wanted more than a one year deal and rafa wasn't prepared to offer him more ,so with what little money he had left he bought the greek . Yer get what you pay for .

Why break the Torres /Gerrard partnership up that has worked so well ,it doesn't make sense . They 've both been injured so that's been taken out of Rafa's hands anyway .

Reira when fit (not a lot ) has been poorley out of form for about 3-4 months , although he does bring balance to the side . So why start him if he bring nothing to the side in an attacking sense .

The kuyt bit i agree with , except that i'd have him in every time ahead of the likes of Babel and Vorinin , because you know your going 100% every game from him .. Not always quality but , works and tries his bollox off .

Well, personally i dont rate Lucas as highly as you do... I think hes improved this season, but is still nowhere near good enough for us... I agree on him trying to play a box-to-box role... Its what he does best and I said that before the season started.. Problem is, his style -given his abilities- simply doesnt suit our system... With Mascherano as the midfield partner, we need someone to receive the ball, and start things from deeper within through their passing or carrying of the ball..etc etc... What Lucas does best, is that he moves off the ball to the positions you wouldnt expect him to.. All credit to him for doing that, but his end product is usually lacking... His job in the side is starting attacks.. spreading the ball and getting the attacking players involved.. as things stand, he does very little of that...

I dont blame him for our defensive failures, i blame the team as a collective... Hes certainly been a major part in that though... Fact that we havent been controlling possession and forcing teams to play deeper inside their own halfs has been the main reason behind our poor defensive record imo... Teams press us higher up now and thats mainly because our midfield pairing takes too long to get any sort of attacking move started... Add to that the fact that we've had Kuyt on one wing and Aurelio/Babel/Benayoun on the other and you've got a recipe for disaster right there...

About Riera.. Guess we'll have to disagree on that... I think hes one of our most important player in the attacking end... Takes ALOT of pressure off of Kuyt in terms of providing natural width (which Kuyt is pretty bad at) and gives the side alot of balance if only for that....

About the Torres-Gerrard partnership... Well, when everyone is fit, then i wouldnt want o break it.. but clearly the side is struggling in other areas atm and if the logical solution is breaking the partnership for a few games then so be it..

[aCe']

It's a good shout mate, i've been bemoaning our defence for a while now but there is no doubt that it is a collective responsibility. Of course, we've missed Alonso's tackles which were by far the most overlooked aspect of his game, throw in the fact we aren't keeping the ball like we used to, Johnson is not the defender that Arbeloa was, Insua for all his potential is not as solid as the oft injured Aurelio, kuyt has looked tired and i think teams seem to be less worried about coming at us these past 10 games.

Scott, do you think Johnson has been poor defending this season or is a situation where he leaves Carra more exposed than Arbeloa did?  I must say that I've been impressed with his defending this season.  Perhaps that has much to do with a lack of expectation, as the main talking when we signed him is that he's great going forward but prone to lapses at the back.  Well, I haven't seen too many lapses to be perfectly honest.  I think he's a lot more accomplished at defending than some give him credit for.  With that said, there's no doubt he pours forward more than Arbeloa ever did and that will open some gaps at the back.

My names not Scott but ill give it a go anyways...
Personally i havent criticized Johnson much before we signed him for the defensive side of his game... But i do recognize that its probably the main downturn to signing someone like him...
Way i see it, his defensive "lapses" would only be a worry in the latter stages of cup competitions and against stronger sides (or the occasional game against a side with a brilliant left winger.. A.Young or Lennon or whatever)  ... Over the course of a season though, in a league campaign, i'd always take an attacking fullback with tons of quality but questionable defending over a solid one (Arbeloa).... Worth spending 18mill on when the funds are lacking though ?! not so sure...

[Igor Zidane]

Ace .

The Lucas thing will be solved once Aqualani is fit as it will be him that's dropped when Aqualani comes in . Should never second guess Rafa though .

Reira on form i totally agree with you , but lke i say when he's been fit he's been poor for a while now.

Can't remember the last time Gerrard and torres played together to be honest so , like i say Rafa's hands have been tied . If we go through every posistion and who should or could have played there , it does show how bad our injuries have effected us this season .

Hopefully Torres is fit tomorrow .

[Emerald Red]

Not going to do that russian doll quote thing and i don't know how to do what scotts just done above .

SO THIS IS FOR YOU ACE 

Lucas has been one of our most consistantly better players this season . I totally disagree with you comments regarding him .If he put away his chances we'd all be singing his praises now , he's afar better player that youn and many others give him credit for .


Again you blame Lucas for our defensive frailties ,but that's so unfair . Lucas is trying to be a up and down midfielder and not a sitter like mascherano , he's getting better and better at it . The defense has been poor this season , but i'd lay that squarley at the defenders feet and injuries of course .
The reason no back up for torres was bought was money plain and simple . Rafa had spent his quota on Johnson (top buy) and Aqualani(don't know yet ) to replace alonso . He was selling Voronin and THe doss ,but he was'snt guaranteed the dosh for new players . So he had to keep them . Sami wanted more than a one year deal and rafa wasn't prepared to offer him more ,so with what little money he had left he bought the greek . Yer get what you pay for .

Why break the Torres /Gerrard partnership up that has worked so well ,it doesn't make sense . They 've both been injured so that's been taken out of Rafa's hands anyway .

Reira when fit (not a lot ) has been poorley out of form for about 3-4 months , although he does bring balance to the side . So why start him if he bring nothing to the side in an attacking sense .

The kuyt bit i agree with , except that i'd have him in every time ahead of the likes of Babel and Vorinin , because you know your going 100% every game from him .. Not always quality but , works and tries his bollox off .

This.

Good post, Igor. I agree with pretty much all of it (including Rafa making mistakes). 

All-in-all, terrible luck so far. I think we need a witch doctor rather than a rich arab.

[LFC2007]

I'm not so sure how much of this analysis is based on evidence or just theory. For example if it's true that Johnson's attacking style of play has left the relatively slow Carra/Skrtel/Agger/Grock badly exposed, surely it's possible to cite a few examples of how this supposed imbalance has cost us in terms of goals conceded? If we're debating theory then I suppose you could equally contend that Johnson's pace enables him to recover and snuff out danger on the break, providing flexibility to an otherwise inflexible backline. I can certainly recall more of that (e.g. Villa at home, Spurs away) than this supposed 'exposure', but then again the game moves very fast and there are so many events that take place and on a varying scale; from simple player-specific actions to the coordination of a partnership, to the coordination of the backline as a whole, and how these relationships figure in the grand scheme of things....and so it ain't easy whoever you are. It explains why people often see things in games very, very differently.

[Emerald Red]

I'm not so sure how much of this analysis is based on evidence or just theory. For example if it's true that Johnson's attacking style of play has left the relatively slow Carra/Skrtel/Agger/Grock badly exposed, surely it's possible to cite a few examples of how this supposed imbalance has cost us in terms of goals conceded? If we're debating theory then I suppose you could equally contend that Johnson's pace enables him to recover and snuff out danger on the break, providing flexibility to an otherwise inflexible backline. I can certainly recall more of that (e.g. Villa at home, Spurs away) than this supposed 'exposure', but then again the game moves very fast and there's lots of events in each game to keep note of...and so it ain't easy whoever you are.

You'd really have to look at the goals to see where most of the danger, and resulting goals conceded have come from to give what you said any kind of credence. To my recollection, most of our goals have been conceded from set-peice play, well, any sort of high ball into the box from a dead ball, really. Sure we've been caught out at times with pace like in the two Lyon games, but you could argue that Johnson's pace could have helped with that. You also look at the goal conceded at Fulham where Degen was playing, and Kuyt was left to be overly enthusiastic about covering him, leading to him actually trying too hard by keeping a ball in play where he actually should have let it run for a throw, which resulted in them retaining posession and scoring the goal. It's a catalogue of individual errors at the moment. No cohesion.