Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

Hmm.. I agree with most points on here, however, I'm going to keep saying that our back four needs alot of work. The thing is, we still miss that dominant center half we need after Hyypia is gone. I remember back in the 2005/2006 season we had a back four of riise - carragher - hyypia - finann, and it was a really strong backfour that actually dealth with first headers from crosses, broke up plays and held off strong opponents. Now fast forward to this year, we have insua - carragher - skrtel - johnson, not as good as we had back in 05/06, so our defencive side of our game dropped. Now Johnson is a fantastic buy, he does suffer from defencive lapses a few times, but till now he hasn't made any major mistakes as opposed to our other players like carra, insua and skrtel that lead to goals. He has been really solid, did his job. Now Skrtel is a big worry, prone to mistakes and loves ball watching, not a good defender to get the best out of Carragher. Insua, is not living it up to his potential yet, I do think he can still come good, but his lack of height and pace is making him vulnrable against fast skillful wingers, althought I like his aggressivness sometimes.

We lack depth in midfield, hopefully if Aquilani is fit and stays fit that is, we will see more urgency and creativity in our midfield and hopefully Rafa will stick to his plan and play him between Gerrard and Mascherano (although I don't agree with it, I prefer Gerrard playing between the two).

We need a striker, a good backup for Torres, or if we have another options in games to play 4-4-2 he can play with him.

We need some depth, the spine is there, but we need players who are capable of covering injuries, some players like Babel and Voronin are not even good enough to be in Liverpool

[metalhead]

Ace .

The Lucas thing will be solved once Aqualani is fit as it will be him that's dropped when Aqualani comes in . Should never second guess Rafa though .

Reira on form i totally agree with you , but lke i say when he's been fit he's been poor for a while now.

Can't remember the last time Gerrard and torres played together to be honest so , like i say Rafa's hands have been tied . If we go through every posistion and who should or could have played there , it does show how bad our injuries have effected us this season .

Hopefully Torres is fit tomorrow .

Igor mate, I'm not sure its still a good idea playing Gerrard off Torres. I know they were really good playing together last season, maybe because we had Alonso in the side playing him his strengths. But sometimes, in big games Gerrard gets shut and fades because he doesn't use his main strengths playing in that position. He always been a box to box midfielder, tackling, passing, carrying the ball, defending and attacking. Thats what he is good at. When Aquilani is fit, Ill throw him behind Torres and Play Gerrard between him and Masch

[aCe']

Metalhead... Aquilani isnt a second striker... doesnt play as high up the pitch as Gerrard has been doing in recent times..
Swapping him and Gerrard imo would take alot from our attacking play... Gerrard plays mostly as a second striker in this formation.. has the physical ability and maturity to deal with the role.... not quite your traditional number 10, but gets the job done anyways simply because he is that good... has alot in his locker and im not sure the same can be said about Aquilani (although i think hes a fantastic player, just not in the role you suggest)....

[LFC2007]

I'm not so sure how much of this analysis is based on evidence or just theory. For example if it's true that Johnson's attacking style of play has left the relatively slow Carra/Skrtel/Agger/Grock badly exposed, surely it's possible to cite a few examples of how this supposed imbalance has cost us in terms of goals conceded? If we're debating theory then I suppose you could equally contend that Johnson's pace enables him to recover and snuff out danger on the break, providing flexibility to an otherwise inflexible backline. I can certainly recall more of that (e.g. Villa at home, Spurs away) than this supposed 'exposure', but then again the game moves very fast and there's lots of events in each game to keep note of...and so it ain't easy whoever you are.

You'd really have to look at the goals to see where most of the danger, and resulting goals conceded have come from to give what you said any kind of credence. To my recollection, most of our goals have been conceded from set-peice play, well, any sort of high ball into the box from a dead ball, really. Sure we've been caught out at times with pace like in the two Lyon games, but you could argue that Johnson's pace could have helped with that. You also look at the goal conceded at Fulham where Degen was playing, and Kuyt was left to be overly enthusiastic about covering him, leading to him actually trying too hard by keeping a ball in play where he actually should have let it run for a throw, which resulted in them retaining posession and scoring the goal. It's a catalogue of individual errors at the moment. No cohesion.

That's a point. If we've conceded eight goals from set plays (Owzat et al), and perhaps several more from balls into the box, we're left with a minority conceded from open play. So the simple analysis would indicate that the major problem is that we're not very good at defending balls into the box, which is something we've long been aware of; individually we lack an aerial presence and as a collective we've been sloppy (i.e. a weakness that could be remedied by a personnel change but we can still get more out of what we've got, and that has to be effected in training). That, however, only accounts for the defending in the period immediately leading up to those goals (failing to defend the action that caused the goal), so by itself it's very much an inadequate explanation of our defensive performance.

The rest is explained by looking at how well the rest of the team has shielded our defence, and for me that's been although not quite as significant as the failings in some of our last-line defending, it's certainly been a notable failing. In simple terms, it's been too easy. In your example, then, how did we let Fulham go from one end of the pitch to the other without making a meaningful intervention? The same could be asked of Lyon's late equaliser/winner (certainly in the away game the ball passed far too many of our players before bouncing on the edge of the box), and the way in which Man City carved us open on a number of oaccasions last weekend (for the goal you could cite Lucas and Skrtel in particular, but that aside, they broke past us far too easily on other occasions). I think that has a lot to do with our lack of a proper ball-playing midfielder as we had with Alonso and as Aquilani ought to be once he gets on the pitch. Prevention is key; if you can keep the ball better - not just maintaining a higher share of possession but by making the right decisions when you have the ball - you immediately cut the risk of being exposed to opposition forays. If you cut that risk, you cut the risk of conceding corners, you cut the risk of conceding space in key positions...all are risks I feel we're now more exposed to, and that goes quite a way to explaining why we've looked so easy to play through, and exposed on too frequent a basis. It doesn't require a detailed analysis to see that we used to be a tough side to penetrate, but now look a bit of a soft touch.

In simple terms:
Have we made effective enough use of possession? No. Has that had ramifications for our defense as well as our attack?, Yes. Have we made it difficult enough to prevent teams playing through us (not just by getting stuck in, but through intelligent positional play)? No. Has that had implications for our defense? Yes. These are functions the whole team have to participate in - particularly the midfield - not merely the back four.

[metalhead]

Metalhead... Aquilani isnt a second striker... doesnt play as high up the pitch as Gerrard has been doing in recent times..
Swapping him and Gerrard imo would take alot from our attacking play... Gerrard plays mostly as a second striker in this formation.. has the physical ability and maturity to deal with the role.... not quite your traditional number 10, but gets the job done anyways simply because he is that good... has alot in his locker and im not sure the same can be said about Aquilani (although i think hes a fantastic player, just not in the role you suggest)....

I don't suggest Aquilani to play as a second striker either, just an attacking playmaker if you like, I've seen Aquilani's passing and killer balls, he can play higher up the pitch and he is what we need in the final third.

Gerrard is physically world class, but against bigger teams, he gets marked out easily and doesn't show up sometimes (except against Mancs), He always shows up in the box to box role.

[Scottbot]

It's a good shout mate, i've been bemoaning our defence for a while now but there is no doubt that it is a collective responsibility. Of course, we've missed Alonso's tackles which were by far the most overlooked aspect of his game, throw in the fact we aren't keeping the ball like we used to, Johnson is not the defender that Arbeloa was, Insua for all his potential is not as solid as the oft injured Aurelio, kuyt has looked tired and i think teams seem to be less worried about coming at us these past 10 games.

Scott, do you think Johnson has been poor defending this season or is a situation where he leaves Carra more exposed than Arbeloa did?  I must say that I've been impressed with his defending this season.  Perhaps that has much to do with a lack of expectation, as the main talking when we signed him is that he's great going forward but prone to lapses at the back.  Well, I haven't seen too many lapses to be perfectly honest.  I think he's a lot more accomplished at defending than some give him credit for.  With that said, there's no doubt he pours forward more than Arbeloa ever did and that will open some gaps at the back.

My names not Scott but ill give it a go anyways...
Personally i havent criticized Johnson much before we signed him for the defensive side of his game... But i do recognize that its probably the main downturn to signing someone like him...
Way i see it, his defensive "lapses" would only be a worry in the latter stages of cup competitions and against stronger sides (or the occasional game against a side with a brilliant left winger.. A.Young or Lennon or whatever)  ... Over the course of a season though, in a league campaign, i'd always take an attacking fullback with tons of quality but questionable defending over a solid one (Arbeloa).... Worth spending 18mill on when the funds are lacking though ?! not so sure...

Am pretty much with Ace on this one, I've had no problems with johnson's defending this season, I can't recall many lapses, he's been strong in the tackle, decent in the air and worked hard however, he's a million miles from the safety first approach we saw from Arbeloa the past couple of seasons. I don't doubt it has compromised the side defensively to some extent. It's always tough to judge fullbacks if you don't go the game every week because its very difficult to get a handle on their positioning, reading of the game and anticipation watching the game on the box, more so than any other position i'd say. Don't get me wrong, he's a cracking player and just what we needed but if we still had Arbeloa I'd be playing johnson at RM for the foreseeable future.

[Emerald Red]

I'm not so sure how much of this analysis is based on evidence or just theory. For example if it's true that Johnson's attacking style of play has left the relatively slow Carra/Skrtel/Agger/Grock badly exposed, surely it's possible to cite a few examples of how this supposed imbalance has cost us in terms of goals conceded? If we're debating theory then I suppose you could equally contend that Johnson's pace enables him to recover and snuff out danger on the break, providing flexibility to an otherwise inflexible backline. I can certainly recall more of that (e.g. Villa at home, Spurs away) than this supposed 'exposure', but then again the game moves very fast and there's lots of events in each game to keep note of...and so it ain't easy whoever you are.

You'd really have to look at the goals to see where most of the danger, and resulting goals conceded have come from to give what you said any kind of credence. To my recollection, most of our goals have been conceded from set-peice play, well, any sort of high ball into the box from a dead ball, really. Sure we've been caught out at times with pace like in the two Lyon games, but you could argue that Johnson's pace could have helped with that. You also look at the goal conceded at Fulham where Degen was playing, and Kuyt was left to be overly enthusiastic about covering him, leading to him actually trying too hard by keeping a ball in play where he actually should have let it run for a throw, which resulted in them retaining posession and scoring the goal. It's a catalogue of individual errors at the moment. No cohesion.

That's a point. If we've conceded eight goals from set plays (Owzat et al), and perhaps several more from balls into the box, we're left with a minority conceded from open play. So the simple analysis would indicate that the major problem is that we're not very good at defending balls into the box, which is something we've long been aware of; individually we lack an aerial presence and as a collective we've been sloppy (i.e. a weakness that could be remedied by a personnel change but we can still get more out of what we've got, and that has to be effected in training). That, however, only accounts for the defending in the period immediately leading up to those goals (failing to defend the action that caused the goal), so by itself it's very much an inadequate explanation of our defensive performance.

The rest is explained by looking at how well the rest of the team has shielded our defence, and for me that's been although not quite as significant as the failings in some of our last-line defending, it's certainly been a notable failing. In simple terms, it's been too easy. In your example, then, how did we let Fulham go from one end of the pitch to the other without making a meaningful intervention? The same could be asked of Lyon's late equaliser/winner (certainly in the away game the ball passed far too many of our players before bouncing on the edge of the box), and the way in which Man City carved us open on a number of oaccasions last weekend (for the goal you could cite Lucas and Skrtel in particular, but that aside, they broke past us far too easily on other occasions). I think that has a lot to do with our lack of a proper ball-playing midfielder as we had with Alonso and as Aquilani ought to be once he gets on the pitch. Prevention is key; if you can keep the ball better - not just maintaining a higher share of possession but by making the right decisions when you have the ball - you immediately cut the risk of being exposed to opposition forays. If you cut that risk, you cut the risk of conceding corners, you cut the risk of conceding space in key positions...all are risks I feel we're now more exposed to, and that goes quite a way to explaining why we've looked so easy to play through, and exposed on too frequent a basis. It doesn't require a detailed analysis to see that we used to be a tough side to penetrate, but now look a bit of a soft touch.

In simple terms:
Have we made effective enough use of possession? No. Has that had ramifications for our defense as well as our attack?, Yes. Have we made it difficult enough to prevent teams playing through us (not just by getting stuck in, but through intelligent positional play)? No. Has that had implications for our defense? Yes. These are functions the whole team have to participate in - particularly the midfield - not merely the back four.

I think it's pretty much nail on the head there. Far too often in games this season you'll notice that we don't shift the ball forward quick enough. It more often than not gets passed out to the sides, where Kuyt will offer little to no direct threat on full-backs and ditto for anyone else bar Yossi or Reira over on the left. The Derby today was a prime example of it. We'd basically no width at all whatsoever, and our wide play was none-existent. As a result Everton had a lot of the ball as we just didn't have an outlet. As soon as Riera came on and Kuyt was shifted central, we had a better flow in our attacking play, and as a result we grabbed the second goal. We just suddenly looked like our old selves again.

Xabi's absence, as you say, is a telling factor, but not as big a one as you make out IMO. For me, it's been a combination of both lossing him and the lack of balance in wide area's that's lead to most of our mistakes this season. It's something that I've been touching on in a lot of the match threads lately. I feel that injuries to the likes of Riera, Aurelio and Yossi have been our biggest blow, particularly Riera. A lot on here don't rate the Spaniard that highly, but I do. With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do.

[bigmick]

With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do .

Agreed with a fair bit of it apart from that part mate. Torres in particular is absolutely pivotal to our success as we simply haven't got a viable alternative.

For me if Torres plays every single match (and I'm not saying he should/would/could etc etc, I'm just saying rhetorically speaking) then we are 10-12 points a better team in the Premiership than we would be if he misses 2/3 of the season. Gerrard is obviously a wonderful player too, but the Spaniard for me is by far our most vital player because we haven't got anyone else.

[account deleted by request]

I think it's pretty much nail on the head there. Far too often in games this season you'll notice that we don't shift the ball forward quick enough. It more often than not gets passed out to the sides, where Kuyt will offer little to no direct threat on full-backs and ditto for anyone else bar Yossi or Reira over on the left. The Derby today was a prime example of it. We'd basically no width at all whatsoever, and our wide play was none-existent. As a result Everton had a lot of the ball as we just didn't have an outlet. As soon as Riera came on and Kuyt was shifted central, we had a better flow in our attacking play, and as a result we grabbed the second goal. We just suddenly looked like our old selves again.

Xabi's absence, as you say, is a telling factor, but not as big a one as you make out IMO. For me, it's been a combination of both lossing him and the lack of balance in wide area's that's lead to most of our mistakes this season. It's something that I've been touching on in a lot of the match threads lately. I feel that injuries to the likes of Riera, Aurelio and Yossi have been our biggest blow, particularly Riera. A lot on here don't rate the Spaniard that highly, but I do. With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do.

Good post Emerald, I don't agree with them being as important as Gerrard and Torres mate, but I think Riera DOES GIVE US MUCH BETTER BALANCE. His loss of form and injuries have been a big factor this season.

[account deleted by request]

With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do .

Agreed with a fair bit of it apart from that part mate. Torres in particular is absolutely pivotal to our success as we simply haven't got a viable alternative.

For me if Torres plays every single match (and I'm not saying he should/would/could etc etc, I'm just saying rhetorically speaking) then we are 10-12 points a better team in the Premiership than we would be if he misses 2/3 of the season. Gerrard is obviously a wonderful player too, but the Spaniard for me is by far our most vital player because we haven't got anyone else.

snap 

[Emerald Red]

I think it's pretty much nail on the head there. Far too often in games this season you'll notice that we don't shift the ball forward quick enough. It more often than not gets passed out to the sides, where Kuyt will offer little to no direct threat on full-backs and ditto for anyone else bar Yossi or Reira over on the left. The Derby today was a prime example of it. We'd basically no width at all whatsoever, and our wide play was none-existent. As a result Everton had a lot of the ball as we just didn't have an outlet. As soon as Riera came on and Kuyt was shifted central, we had a better flow in our attacking play, and as a result we grabbed the second goal. We just suddenly looked like our old selves again.

Xabi's absence, as you say, is a telling factor, but not as big a one as you make out IMO. For me, it's been a combination of both lossing him and the lack of balance in wide area's that's lead to most of our mistakes this season. It's something that I've been touching on in a lot of the match threads lately. I feel that injuries to the likes of Riera, Aurelio and Yossi have been our biggest blow, particularly Riera. A lot on here don't rate the Spaniard that highly, but I do. With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do.

Good post Emerald, I don't agree with them being as important as Gerrard and Torres mate, but I think Riera DOES GIVE US MUCH BETTER BALANCE. His loss of form and injuries have been a big factor this season.

Well maybe not that important, but they are pivotal, and if those four are fit, then it greatly inhances our attacking threat that much more. Torres can't carry the team all on his own. He too needs support, and those other two give it.

[Scottbot]

I think it's pretty much nail on the head there. Far too often in games this season you'll notice that we don't shift the ball forward quick enough. It more often than not gets passed out to the sides, where Kuyt will offer little to no direct threat on full-backs and ditto for anyone else bar Yossi or Reira over on the left. The Derby today was a prime example of it. We'd basically no width at all whatsoever, and our wide play was none-existent. As a result Everton had a lot of the ball as we just didn't have an outlet. As soon as Riera came on and Kuyt was shifted central, we had a better flow in our attacking play, and as a result we grabbed the second goal. We just suddenly looked like our old selves again.

Xabi's absence, as you say, is a telling factor, but not as big a one as you make out IMO. For me, it's been a combination of both lossing him and the lack of balance in wide area's that's lead to most of our mistakes this season. It's something that I've been touching on in a lot of the match threads lately. I feel that injuries to the likes of Riera, Aurelio and Yossi have been our biggest blow, particularly Riera. A lot on here don't rate the Spaniard that highly, but I do. With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do.

Good post Emerald, I don't agree with them being as important as Gerrard and Torres mate, but I think Riera DOES GIVE US MUCH BETTER BALANCE. His loss of form and injuries have been a big factor this season.

Same here, a fit and firing Riera makes a big difference to this team.

[loopyliverpool]

We've had injuries and for me, the players coming in just aren't good enough. Of today's eleven I would site Insua, Lucas, Ngog and an out of form Kuyt as not being of the required standard. One would imagine that if we had a fit squad, of these four only Kuyt would be a starter as he is one of Rafa's favourites. I however, would always play Benayoun ahead of him.

[LFC2007]

I think it's pretty much nail on the head there. Far too often in games this season you'll notice that we don't shift the ball forward quick enough. It more often than not gets passed out to the sides, where Kuyt will offer little to no direct threat on full-backs and ditto for anyone else bar Yossi or Reira over on the left. The Derby today was a prime example of it. We'd basically no width at all whatsoever, and our wide play was none-existent. As a result Everton had a lot of the ball as we just didn't have an outlet. As soon as Riera came on and Kuyt was shifted central, we had a better flow in our attacking play, and as a result we grabbed the second goal. We just suddenly looked like our old selves again.

Xabi's absence, as you say, is a telling factor, but not as big a one as you make out IMO. For me, it's been a combination of both lossing him and the lack of balance in wide area's that's lead to most of our mistakes this season. It's something that I've been touching on in a lot of the match threads lately. I feel that injuries to the likes of Riera, Aurelio and Yossi have been our biggest blow, particularly Riera. A lot on here don't rate the Spaniard that highly, but I do. With Johnson and Reira being as direct as they are, they both offer the width and threat from both flanks that we've been lacking for most of the season so far. I think it's equally important that those two stay fit as much as Torres and Gerrard do.

Totally agree with you on the issue of outlets out wide and Riera in particular, because after all he's our only conventional winger. For defensive and attacking purposes, you need players who can give the team breathing space and Riera's very good at providing that; he's comfortable on the ball, reasonably athletic and generally quite intelligent. I've always said he is one of our more important players, certainly ten times better than any other option we have on the left.

To a large degree, our centre mid's can only be as good as our wide men permit because that's where they look to more often than not when they've got the ball (from here more balls are played out wide than to any other area of the pitch). Put simply, you can rely on Riera to make himself space, to get the ball under control and to use it well, but you can't say the same with Babel and to a lesser extent, Kuyt. It's not even Benayoun's forte.

The CMs do though have to take on more responsibility for the functioning of the midfield because they see more of the ball and they're responsible for shaping the play by selecting the right option. If they select the wrong one, it might cost us possession, do this often enough and it might lead to a goal conceded. Select the right one, it might lead sustained spells of possession, and do this often enough and it might lead to a goal scored.

On the whole I don't think we've functioned at all well in either of the pitch, but I think the central midfield area has been of greater consequence to our performances.

[yolz]

Sometimes in football things aren't always as clear-cut as it should be
True, we miss Alonso much more than the 30 million he brought in
And I'm getting depressed that the team seems to be unsettled, unable to build from the good season we had previously
However, the main reason that attributes our appalling season so far may be that "black hole" that teams sometimes experience
I never thought to see the day when Rafa does not stick to his rotating policy
I think that sums up the situation
Neither the lads nor Rafa seems to be able to pin point the exact reason for our demise
A combination of bad luck (bloody beach ball!), injuries and school boy mistakes at crucial moments have all contributed
They just snowballed into a situation where the lads and Rafa still have not managed to pull themselves out of the "Black Hole"
No matter how much you time spent over analysis and dissection of the team,
I still don't think we deserve such an appalling run of results (even with the usual suspects thrown in!)
We might not have a premiership winning team, but neither do we have a team that deserves the current situation
I think the jury should still be out till after the Christmas season and we move into the second stage of the premeirship