Liverpool FC Forum

[milou]

This is not a thread for finding fault but an attempt to analyze what is really happening to our recent string of bad results...

Premiership Statistics:

SEASON  PLAYED CLEAN-SHEET GOAL-SCORED GOAL-CONCEDED
05/06     38         22 (58%)       57 (1.5/game)   25 (0.66/game)
06/07     38         20 (53%)       57 (1.5/game)   27 (0.71/game)
07/08     38         18 (47%)       67 (1.8/game)   28 (0.73/game)
08/09     38         20 (53%)       77 (2.0/game)   27 (0.71/game)
09/10     12         3 (25%)         27 (2.3/game)  18 (1.50/game)

i was honestly surprised with some of the numbers but the statistics say it all..  and statistics don't lie.

Eventhough we are obviously conceding more (leading to more losses), but we are ALSO scoring more! 

That raised a few questions in my mind..

1) Why is our defence doing so badly this season with almost the SAME players we had?

2) Is Johnson (admittedly he couldn't be blamed for matches he sat out due to injury) a worse defender than Arbeloa.. eventhough we can almost all agree that he now offers something unique offensively to the team? Maybe that explains why we are scoring more but also conceding more?

3) Do we really miss Hyypia so much (like some claimed) bcos he wasn't a regular last season anyway and most actually thought he has past his best?

4) Is it simply bad form from our usually most consistent defender - Carra?

5) Could it be bcos Rafa is trying to turn our draws into wins (knowing only more wins could possibly bring us the title) and left our defence more exposed? Does it explain why we are scoring more but also conceding more at the same time? Has Rafa's tactics backfired?

6) Is it bcos Mascherano is not shielding the defence more effectively as he should?

7) Then how is Lucas to be blamed (a common target to many) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

8) Similarly, how is Alonso being missed SO much (as if his departure is our ONLY problem) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

9) How could we blame some of our attacking players like Babel, Voronin, Ngog, etc since we don't have problem scoring?

10) Why has zonal marking "stopped" working this season since it has PROVEN to be very effective for the past 4 seasons (hence the very few no of goals conceded past seasons - in spite of what the pundits might say)?

In hindsight, if our defence JUST held up like we normally do, wouldn't we be winning most matches and very close to the top now? 

YNWA.

[mart]

8) Similarly, how is Alonso being missed SO much (as if his departure is our ONLY problem) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

Its a combination of many things.

Alonso managed to keep the ball and give us an element of control in the midfield. You could see it last season too, the difference in how we played with and without him.

[peterc1992]

8) Similarly, how is Alonso being missed SO much (as if his departure is our ONLY problem) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

Its a combination of many things.

Alonso managed to keep the ball and give us an element of control in the midfield. You could see it last season too, the difference in how we played with and without him.

Yeh but how many of the goals that we conceded this season have been from set pieces that alonso wudnt have made a difference with or without.Villa we concedede from a corner a penalty and a free kick.we have no problem scoring when we have a full team but we have had about 11 injuries to single players over the last month along with leaking goals at the back and we are a mess.When we get every one fit and sort it out at the back  we will be great.

[milou]

8) Similarly, how is Alonso being missed SO much (as if his departure is our ONLY problem) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

Its a combination of many things.

Alonso managed to keep the ball and give us an element of control in the midfield. You could see it last season too, the difference in how we played with and without him.

It is true (but obvious) that it is never a single issue that caused our problem or ANY problem for that matter.. FWIW, i actually think our "less than serious pre-season" also contributed to our bad form bcos it spilled over to our first few matches & we lost our momentum and never regain it.

But we should pin-point where the main problem is.. which is defence. If we don't then it would be like having a CEO who keeps blaming the sales department when they are already selling MORE than usual but ignore the obvious need to cut cost!

In the context of Alonso, can't we argue that even with his departure, we wouldn't be in this mess IF our defence played to our usual high standard ? Don't get me wrong.. I think Alonso is a VERY good player, and we do miss him in certain aspects of our game but he is NOT the main reason why we are doing so badly. Defence is.

Any team that scores 2.3 goals a match should not be in the position we are in right now! But we are conceding 1.5 a match to get us right back into trouble!

[mart]

But we should pin-point where the main problem is.. which is defence.

In the context of Alonso, can't we argue that even with his departure, we wouldn't be in this mess IF our defence played to our usual high standard ?

The defense is so much more than just the 5 in the back. But yes defense is a problem. You cant pin it all on one thing though.

[account deleted by request]

Good thread starter and a welcome change of pace mate.

1) Why is our defence doing so badly this season with almost the SAME players we had?

I think a settled defence is one of the main reasons we had such a good record, with a well balanced center pairing of Carra and Hyypia.

The defensive unit is NOT the same, Finnan, Carra,Hyypia, Riise has now become  Johnson  Carra  Agger/Skrtel  Aurelio/Insua. Arbeloa was a steady defender who's main weakness was attacking not his defending, while Johnson is brilliant going forwards but isn't quite the same standard defensively.   

3) Do we really miss Hyypia so much (like some claimed) bcos he wasn't a regular last season anyway and most actually thought he has past his best?

I think when you lose a player like Hyypia, even in his declining years you are always going to suffer for it. Last season although he only started 15 games he was still a much better option than the big Greek. I don't think it is losing Hyypia that is our problem however, I think the setup and balance of the side has changed dramatically with both full backs now expected to create as well as defend which has exposed the limitations of our centre backs.   

4) Is it simply bad form from our usually most consistent defender - Carra?

I don't think so. While Carra has not played particularly well this season, I think he is being asked to do things now that he just can't do. He just hasn't the pace to cope with the extra space the opposition are now allowed, and he was never great in the air. With our fullbacks not supplying the cover we are forced to conceed a lot of free kicks, and too many crosses are coming in too.

5) Could it be bcos Rafa is trying to turn our draws into wins (knowing only more wins could possibly bring us the title) and left our defence more exposed? Does it explain why we are scoring more but also conceding more at the same time? Has Rafa's tactics backfired?

 
Offensively I think the major difference was Torres anyway.We swopped strikers who got 10/12 goals a season for a striker who gets 20+, while Gerrard's move forward has added another 10.

6) Is it bcos Mascherano is not shielding the defence more effectively as he should?

I think Masch has been much poorer for the last 18months or so, but this season he is being asked to do things he is not particularly good at rather than concentrate solely on defence.

 

7) Then how is Lucas to be blamed (a common target to many) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

Apart from the silly freekicks he gives away around the box, my only other criticism is that playing two similarly limited passers in midfield  just exacerbates his problems. Both Masch and Lucas can do an excellent job against teams that come on to us, but struggle with the more creative side of the game.  The balance is just not right, especially with Kuyt another limited player on the right and the eratic Riera/Babel/Benayoun/Aurelio on the left. 

8) Similarly, how is Alonso being missed SO much (as if his departure is our ONLY problem) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

I think once we have Aquilani up and running Alonso won't be missed as much, certainly when Gerrard was dropped back into midfield we seemed to have a much better balance than with Masch/Lucas, but obviously we lost a little bit further forward. If we had signed Barry I don't think we would have had half the problems we have had so far.   

9) How could we blame some of our attacking players like Babel, Voronin, Ngog, etc since we don't have problem scoring?
 

Take Torres out of the equation and I think you will see we DO have a problem scoring   We have an exceptional striker in Torres and he covers up a multitude of sins with his goalscoring ability.

10) Why has zonal marking "stopped" working this season since it has PROVEN to be very effective for the past 4 seasons (hence the very few no of goals conceded past seasons - in spite of what the pundits might say)?

I don't think it has ever worked particularly well at set pieces, in open play yes, but not set pieces. I posted some stats a while ago that showed that the number of goals we conceed from set pieces has TRIPPLED since Rafa came, even though our defensive record has improved overall.


I think the key to all our problems is balance. Attacking fullbacks need fast CB's, and two limited midfield players need very creative wide players.  We had a reasonable balance last season, but due to "circumstances" and changes of personel we seem to have lost it for the moment.

[Dazzer]

Sorry had to make this short cooking but I think its the midfield that is lacking this year I don't think so far our defence has been that much worse for wears. We don't retain the ball as much as we used too and that in turn is costing us in letting more in.

[account deleted by request]

It is true (but obvious) that it is never a single issue that caused our problem or ANY problem for that matter.. FWIW, i actually think our "less than serious pre-season" also contributed to our bad form bcos it spilled over to our first few matches & we lost our momentum and never regain it.

spot on

[LFC2007]

Our defence has been a major problem but you can't explain that problem simply by looking at the defence; for the team to function to the required standard, each player has to complement another (or rather, most have to), and that hasn't happened. The obvious component that hasn't worked but has to if you have any hopes of a realistic title challenge, is the midfield. It's a given: Lucas-Masch over a series of games won't be enough, all the more so if you're best LW (Riera) is out or struggling for form, and if your RM (Kuyt) is weak in possession. The implication for our defence is that they've had tougher situations to deal with. Alonso wouldn't be giving the ball away in dangerous positions as Lucas, and to a lesser extent Masch, have done.  As a defender, having two competent and composed players in front of you is assuring, and that has an effect on confidence, and so performance (positioning, execution). The other obvious factors are more simply a lack of form on the part of Carra and Skrtel, and at times the inexperience of Insua, but also the loss of Hyypia and Alonso who were both cool heads and strong in the air. The fact that we've looked so out-of-sorts at set pieces also suggests that the manager and coaching staff may have done a better job in training.

But like our defence, our attacking play has also been a major problem - even if the goals scored collumn appears to 'prove' otherwise. Stat's don't show that against Spurs, Villa, Sunderland, Fulham and at various other points intermittently, we've lacked the type of creativity needed to make a difference. It's worth bearing in mind that fourteen of our 27 have come against Burnley, Hull and Stoke; which means it's taken us 3x the number of games to amass the other half, a disproportionate number for a team ostensibly without too many weaknesses in attack.

[milou]

Our defence has been a major problem but you can't explain that problem simply by looking at the defence; for the team to function to the required standard, each player has to complement another (or rather, most have to), and that hasn't happened. The obvious component that hasn't worked but has to if you have any hopes of a realistic title challenge, is the midfield. It's a given: Lucas-Masch over a series of games won't be enough, all the more so if you're best LW (Riera) is out or struggling for form, and if your RM (Kuyt) is weak in possession. The implication for our defence is that they've had tougher situations to deal with. Alonso wouldn't be giving the ball away in dangerous positions as Lucas, and to a lesser extent Masch, have done.  As a defender, having two competent and composed players in front of you is assuring, and that has an effect on confidence, and so performance (positioning, execution). The other obvious factors are more simply a lack of form on the part of Carra and Skrtel, and at times the inexperience of Insua, but also the loss of Hyypia and Alonso who were both cool heads and strong in the air. The fact that we've looked so out-of-sorts at set pieces also suggests that the manager and coaching staff may have done a better job in training.

But like our defence, our attacking play has also been a major problem - even if the goals scored collumn appears to 'prove' otherwise. Stat's don't show that against Spurs, Villa, Sunderland, Fulham and at various other points intermittently, we've lacked the type of creativity needed to make a difference. It's worth bearing in mind that fourteen of our 27 have come against Burnley, Hull and Stoke; which means it's taken us 3x the number of games to amass the other half, a disproportionate number for a team ostensibly without too many weaknesses in attack.

True.. It is all about balance.. That's a given.

Whether it is bcos Torres got the striking department "out-of-jail" or not, we only failed to score in 2 matches (chelsea, sunderland).

More alarming is the fact that we can't seem to keep clean sheets. Being the "clean-sheet kings" in EPL for the past few seasons, we only managed 25% or 3 this season so far (man utd, stoke, burnley).

Somehow, our usual ability to close out games (almost with ease) have eluded us this season and it is costing us big time.

[made in UK]

I think our defence is one of two root causes to our poor form this season. For various reasons our defence has been chopped and changed about this season and consistency between them has not been found. The inclusion of both Johnson and Insua have rocked the boat and we therefore haven't intergrated them into our defence aswell as I had hope. Both players have their differing reasons why they haven't intergrated, one being an interpersonal reason (Johnson) and the other an intrapersonal reason (Insua). Johnson as we all know has great ability going forward but defensively he may not be as sound as someone like Finnan for example. Never the less I think he is capable of fufilling his aspirations with Liverpool football club. The problem with Johnson is that he has broken the dynamics of what once was a solid back four up, with his marauding down the flank. Neither Finnan or Arbeloa would get forward as much as him and the defence has to now accomodate for this. Players like Kuyt, Lucas and Mascherano could or should perhaps drop in for him when Johnson's off attacking. Instead Carragher on the few occassions I've seen Johnson play this season has pulled across and invaribly taken up two positions when doing so; his own and Johnson's! I don't think its coincedence that Carragher has being under the microscope this season with his own performances. At the ripe old age of 31 he is now asked to accomodate an attacking fullback in his defence and this is probably the last thing he really needs. Like I said though, Lucas or Mascherano should drop back in there if thats the case and ideally Kuyt helping out Johnson upfield.

In all honesty though we don't look quite as shaky in open play as we do when defending from set-pieces. Johnson hasn't had the consistency to perfect the zonal marking system, although he hasn't looked as guilty as some of the others have regarding aerial defending. Still time is needed to bed him into a defence that was regimentally structered and organised as he breaks that mould of defender we've had at Liverpool for a very long time.

In comparison Insua for me does not look up to the task of being a regular first teamer at Liverpool. Due to his age I think his awareness and communication are lacking, one of the goals that Fulham scored against us a few weeks back highlighted this concern. I think they hit us on the counter attack, attacked us down the left, our defenders we're all facing Reina trying to get back. Insua had one of their attackers on his left shoulder who was also running towards goal. Their player (RW) peeled away from Insua near the 18yard box and moved in behind the Greek Grock. Their left winger crossed the ball in and their right winger ghosted past the Grock and scored. Now that is playground stuff, fundamental defending gone wrong. Insua was able to see their right winger dart in behind the Grock who didn't realise he was their, Insua only had to give him a call and Fulham in all probability wouldn't of scored. The Grock didn't get the simple call he needed because he didn't look back round over his shoulder for their attacker coming in to get on the end of the cross.

That is one instance off the top of my head where small simple things like that are done wrong and it costs you in games like these. Insua again due to the lack of awareness he has developed, usually is the last defender playing an attacker onside when the defence step-up he is out of sync with Carragher & co. And its little things like this that make, what once was a well drilled defence looked pretty average and supsect. Talking of 'little' thats another issue of mine defensively from the air he is about as much use as t.its on a Bull. And as Rafa said in one of his interviews you need big strong physical players something Insua isn't.

After that we have Skertel who once I thought looked good but the more I've seen of him the less I'm convinced he'll ever be good enough to hold a place down with us on a regular basis. Gone are the days of Finnan, Hyypia, Henchoz and Carra. Gone are the days of Arbeloa, Carra, Hyypia, Riise six good defenders there who knew how to defend and defend well. Compare those names with Johnson, Carra, Skertel and Insua, with the two latter mentioned especially our defence has become a bit of a soft spot and their aerial ability isn't worth writing home about.

The second root cause of our poor form this season is one of the root causes we had for not killing teams off last season. We have not improved in the final third on attacking personel. This one has stuck with us! And when you have a defence that has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese; drawing games quickly reverts to loosing games.

[milou]

some very interesting points u raised mate...

The defensive unit is NOT the same, Finnan, Carra,Hyypia, Riise has now become  Johnson  Carra  Agger/Skrtel  Aurelio/Insua. Arbeloa was a steady defender who's main weakness was attacking not his defending, while Johnson is brilliant going forwards but isn't quite the same standard defensively.

But if we compared with LAST season, we only lost Arbeloa. So is buying Johnson the right decision?

I think when you lose a player like Hyypia, even in his declining years you are always going to suffer for it. Last season although he only started 15 games he was still a much better option than the big Greek.

I personally don't think losing Hyypia has a big effect.. We now only rue losing him bcos of the benefits of hindsight that our big greek is horrible! I remember most people were blaming him for conceding goals bcos of his lack of space. But no doubt he would have done much better than the greek even when blinded-folded!

however, I think the setup and balance of the side has changed dramatically with both full backs now expected to create as well as defend which has exposed the limitations of our centre backs.

spot on. i think this is our MAIN source of problems. Basically when trying to use attacking fullbacks who incidentally are also not very good defenders (insua, johnson), we just don't have the right CBs to cover the space left behind.. thus exposing ourselves more.

Apart from the silly freekicks he gives away around the box, my only other criticism is that playing two similarly limited passers in midfield  just exacerbates his problems. Both Masch and Lucas can do an excellent job against teams that come on to us, but struggle with the more creative side of the game.  The balance is just not right, especially with Kuyt another limited player on the right and the eratic Riera/Babel/Benayoun/Aurelio on the left.

I am not even trying to defend lucas bcos he is simply NOT LFC material but I think it is unfair to make him the scapegoat all the time.

I think once we have Aquilani up and running Alonso won't be missed as much, certainly when Gerrard was dropped back into midfield we seemed to have a much better balance than with Masch/Lucas, but obviously we lost a little bit further forward.

I certainly hope aquilani will step up soon but still don't think alonso is the main reason why we are doing so badly. the severity of losing him is definitely over-stated bcos we seem to be scoring alright. If we kept the shape of our defence, we wouldn't be in this mess.. with or without alonso.

If we had signed Barry I don't think we would have had half the problems we have had so far.   

Spot on again. if we could offer top money (which we couldn't), barry would have chosen us instead of manc.. it is a no-brainer. forget about what he said about their ambition and all.. what ambition? i am pretty sure it was mostly down to MONEY.

Take Torres out of the equation and I think you will see we DO have a problem scoring   We have an exceptional striker in Torres and he covers up a multitude of sins with his goalscoring ability.

Yet again I am not trying to defend all our mediocre attacking players like voronin & babel but do we seriously think they could save us from trouble if we keep needing them to come off the bench to out-score the oppositions? How many times have we scored only to just concede again and again?

I don't think it has ever worked particularly well at set pieces, in open play yes, but not set pieces. I posted some stats a while ago that showed that the number of goals we conceed from set pieces has TRIPPLED since Rafa came, even though our defensive record has improved overall.

Interesting. but how could we be still doing SO well defensively if we were conceding frequently from set-pieces? Rafa must have done something right previously but it has gone horribly wrong so far this season.

FWIW, i think the MAIN reason (but not the only one of cos) for our woes this season is IRONICALLY what we have been advocating Rafa to do all this while.. That's to not just draw but try all out to win games. This may have led to his decision to splash a big chunk of his limited budget on johnson who is good going forward but suspicious at the back. This has led to big gaps in our usually water-tight defence and dragging our CBs out of positions way too frequently. Then this is snowballed into a complete collapse of confidence and form for the whole defence. Did u see their faces whenever there is a freekick or corner (for f'uck sake, it is just a corner!) conceded? Coupled with the yanks' reluctance to give him more money to get a decent CB backup, we were completely f'ucked when we got the greek on cheap!

The statistics seem to tell the same story:
We are scoring more but also conceding more.
We were 0-0 specialists but there is not even a single 0-0 this season so far.
We were clean-sheet kings but we now cannot defend to save our lives! We are conceding on average 1.5 goals a game now!
There is no more draws (as we WISHED) but a lot more losses!

[account deleted by request]

I think our defence is one of two root causes to our poor form this season. For various reasons our defence has been chopped and changed about this season and consistency between them has not been found. The inclusion of both Johnson and Insua have rocked the boat and we therefore haven't intergrated them into our defence aswell as I had hope. Both players have their differing reasons why they haven't intergrated, one being an interpersonal reason (Johnson) and the other an intrapersonal reason (Insua). Johnson as we all know has great ability going forward but defensively he may not be as sound as someone like Finnan for example. Never the less I think he is capable of fufilling his aspirations with Liverpool football club. The problem with Johnson is that he has broken the dynamics of what once was a solid back four up, with his marauding down the flank. Neither Finnan or Arbeloa would get forward as much as him and the defence has to now accomodate for this. Players like Kuyt, Lucas and Mascherano could or should perhaps drop in for him when Johnson's off attacking. Instead Carragher on the few occassions I've seen Johnson play this season has pulled across and invaribly has taken up two positions when doing so; his own and Johnson's. I don't think its coincedence that Carragher has being under the microscope this season with his own performances. At the ripe old age of 31 he is now asked to accomodate an attacking fullback in his defence, but like I said Lucas or Mascherano should drop back in there if thats the case and idealy Kuyt helping out Johnson upfield.

In all honesty though we don't look quite as shaky in open play as we do when defending from set-pieces. Johnson hasn't had the consistency to perfect the zonal marking system, although he hasn't looked as guilty as some of the others have regarding aerial defending. Still time is needed to bed him into a defence that was regimentally structered and organised as he breaks that mould of defender we've had at Liverpool for a very long time.

In comparison Insua for me does not look up to the task of being a regular first teamer at Liverpool. Due to his age I think his awareness and communication are lacking, one of the goals that Fulham scored against us a few weeks back highlighted this concern. I think they hit us on the counter attack, attacked us down the left, our defenders we're all facing Reina trying to get back. Insua had one of their attackers on his left shoulder who was also running towards goal. Their player then peeled away from Insua near the 18yard box and moved in behind the Greek Grock. Their left winger crossed the ball in and their right winger ghosted past the Grock and scored. Now that is playground stuff, fundamental defending gone wrong. Insua was able to see their right winger dart in behind the Grock who didn't realise he was their, Insua only had to give him a call and Fulham in all probability wouldn't of scored. The Grock didn't get the simple call he needed because he didn't and look back round over his shoulder for their attacker coming in to get on the end of the cross.

That is one instance off the top of my head where small simple things like that are done wrong and it costs you in games like these. Insua again due to the lack of awareness he has developed usually is the last defender playing an attacker onside, when the defence step-up he is out of sync with Carragher & co. And its little things like this that makes, what once was a well drilled defence looked pretty average and supsect. Talking of little thats another issue of mine, defensively from the air he is about as much use as t.its on a Bull. And as Rafa said in one of his interviews you need big strong physical players something Insua isn't.

After that we have Skertel who once I thought looked good but the more I've seen of him the less I'm convinced he'll ever be good enough to hold a place down with us on a regular basis. Gone are the days of Finnan, Hyypia, Henchoz and Carra. Gone are the days of Arbeloa, Carra, Hyypia, Riise six good defenders there who knew how to defend and defend well. Compare those names with Johnson, Carra, Skertel and Insua, with the two latter mentioned especially our defence has become a bit of a soft spot and their aerial ability isn't worth writing home about.

The second root cause of our poor form this season is one of the root causes we had for not killing teams off last season. We have not improved in the final third on attacking personel. This one has stuck with us! And when you have a defence that has at more holes in it than a block of swiss; drawing games quickly reverts to loosing games.

Excellent post mate

[account deleted by request]

But if we compared with LAST season, we only lost Arbeloa. So is buying Johnson the right decision?

With Carra and Skrtel playing at CB probably not, but in the long term I am sure we will find a solution and he is an excellent player. I won't try to answer all the individual quotes as it gets a bit messy 

I think the defensive cracks were already starting to show last season even before we signed Johnson. We were just playing so well towards the end of the season that the opposition didn't get enough ball to really exploit them. We also had a large amount of good fortune last season which seems to have totally deserted us now.   

If you think back to some of our games early last season (Wigan and Hull at home and Man city away spring to mind) some of our defending was shocking, while at the end of the season the seven goals we conceeded against Chelsea (over two legs) and the 4-4 thriller against Arsenal perhaps indicated that if and when we really attacked sides we also left the gate open at the back for teams with the quality to exploit them.

Interesting. but how could we be still doing SO well defensively if we were conceding frequently from set-pieces? Rafa must have done something right previously but it has gone horribly wrong so far this season.

I think the simple answer is that we are conceeding a lot more freekicks around the box now than we ever did before,due in part to our more attacking philosophy with raiding backs and part to Lucas.

While at corners teams have now had 5years to work on ways to beat our system.  The loss of height and weight that Hyypia and Alonso had has also played its part, especially as our CB's now have to advance to try to help our midfield when the ball is pumped up field due to Masch and Lucas both being dwarves   

[Owzat]

I posted some stats a while ago that showed that the number of goals we conceed from set pieces has TRIPPLED since Rafa came, even though our defensive record has improved overall.

Where? I want to see them, I'm curious by a stat that suggests we've trebled the number of goals against from set pieces while also conceding less overall. Makes me wonder how small or big the numbers involved actually are