Liverpool FC Forum

[Scottbot]

Now I know Carra has his own player thread and perhaps the mods may feel the need to merge this thread with that one at some stage although I'd also like to discuss the general make-up of our back four as well.

More than a few times this pre-season I've read that 'Carra is past it' and that he should be replaced in the side by either the players we've got (Skrtel and Agger) or by a new player coming in. Now I don't personally hold to this and my view over the past couple of years (and for a while before that) is that Carra is still (comfortably) the best CB we have at the club. Now there's no doubt that he has lost a step, his reactions are a little slower and he looks a little heavier now compared to say 2005. I think the biggest problem we have with Carra (and this also applies to Skrtel and Agger) is that his skill-set means he needs to be playing with a bigger, stronger lad alongside him. Carra's strengths have always been his leadership and organisational skills, he's an excellent reader of the game, he excels at last ditch tackles and blocks just when you think we're done for. He also does a good job spotting and picking up midfield runners and generally sees more of the pitch than any of our other defenders.

Now the problem for me is that Carra (for a few seasons now) since Hyppia's role was down-scaled (and then he left the club has been asked to step up and be our number one defender. He has to go up and win first balls (he was always better at winning the 2nd) which really isn't his game. He's a decent header of the ball but he's not the tallest and he doesn't fare so well against the likes of Drogba and some of the other bigger taller forwards out there. He was (and will be again) a much better player with a Hyppia type player alongside him. The problem we have is that the same could be said about Danny Agger. He's got a very different skill set from Carra as we know, he's very comfortable on the ball, he has great composure, can bring the ball out and from a defensive point of view he's a solid all-rounder BUT he also struggles to go up and win first balls in the air so unfortunately partnering him with Carra isn't a great solution. Skrtel takes a bit of stick sometimes, I know I've had numerous moans about him over the years but he is another solid player who is strong in the tackle, tenacious and he isn't bad in the air BUT once again the patnership between him and either or Carra/Agger doesn't really work for me. Skrtel is a quality 3rd defender but he's not first choice in a side that hopes to be up there challenging, at least not for me. And then there's big Soto. Another poster summed him up the other day (soz can't remember who) saying that he's likely to be man of the match one week (against a side like Stoke) and then completely victimised the following week when confronted by pace and trickery and for these reasons he ISN'T a Liverpool player for me. He's a specialist guy we bring in from time to time because the other lads aren't quite up to it when it comes to the aerial battle you get in England and we shouldn't be in that position. I'd also add that none of the other 3 come close to filling the leadership/organsiational mantle when Carra is absent.

Now it's not easy being a CB in this league. Not only do we expect our centre-halves to be big, strong and dominant in the air against players like Drogba, Crouch, Jerome, Kenwyn Jones etc we also expect them to be equally adept on the deck against quick-witted (quick footed) opponents such as Suarez, Tevez, Hernandez etc. It's not an easy role to play and that's why (for me) it is perhaps the most important position on the pitch.

As I see it the club need to go out and bet a blue-chip CB prospect and they need to do it yesterday. Cahill fits the bill but I also REALLY like young Shawcross at Stoke. At 33 years old (I think?) Carra needs to be playing as a number 2 centre-half from here on in and I really believe that if we could get one of those two players in it would enable Carra to play his natural game and I reckon we'd get another 2 quality years out of my favourite Liverpool player. 

So my questions are:

- Is Carra past it?
- Could he get back to some of his previous best form with a more suited partner at the back? (it's not a thread about who we should get in but rather the characteristics we need)
- If you don't think we need a new CB please explain why you think the guys we have are up to it?

[jacdaniel]

He isnt past it yet but is certainly well on his way.  Unfortunately at his age it probably takes a little while longer than it used to, to regain match fitness.  This is possibly the reason why he is looking a bit dodgy in pre season.

Dont think we'll ever see him get back to his best due to his age.  But he would definitly look better if we had another great CB.   

As for the others... Skrtel aint bad but he is isnt all that good either.  too much ball watching.
Agger is good but sadly made of glass and often gets caught going forward when the likes of Lucas isnt in the team to mop up.   Soto was a great buy for a terribly low price but isnt really league winning material.

Good post by the way.

[Johnny Boy]

Great post. Personally for me he has another season in him, the problem is finding him a partner.
I don't think Skrtel is good enough and Agger injury prone.

Hyypia and Carra were great together, sadly we haven't replaced Sami with someone as good and it's all about a partnership.

[neil]

well past it, he's been embarrassed enough times in preseason for me to be seriously worried about the season ahead if he's playing regularly.

[ethanr]

He's starting to look past it.  He's been making a lot of mistakes and clearly struggles to keep up.  Maybe he isn't fully match fit, but if it takes him this long then he's becoming more like Agger where we can't depend on him every match to be ready.

[Greavesie]

passed it? perhaps. I certaonly don't expect him to put himself about as much as he used to and he is at times a bit of a liability

That said, imo he's still our best CB and our defence is usually (pre season aside) more organised when he's in it

[RedSi35]

I think it's a case of his body can't get into the positions his mind is demanding.

He was never the quickest 10 years ago. But he is still our best CB.

[aCe']

Good post... not much to add on that...

Hes also our best CB imo, and even if we go out and sign Cahill, Dann or Shawcross he'd still be that... Only problem is that we need a different type of defender playing alongside him as you say and many people dont seem to realize that...
Our style of play also plays a big role on his duties and thereby his performances... Lucas isnt the best defensively despite all the progress, and more often than not we have fullbacks making basic errors that leave the CBs needing to step up...

I've been a huge fan of Hangeland for a while now and its a shame hes not mentioned .. Not sure how good Dann, Cahill and Shawcross are but they seem to be better defensively than Agger and Skrtel which is a step in the right direction... In an ideal world we'd be looking at a top top class CB (Juan, Chiellini, Hangeland..) but we'll take whatever we can get at this point...

We also need to work on our positioning in the middle of the park... With players like Adam and Henderson coming into the side, the coaches have alot of work to do in the next few days to prepare the side for the start of the league campaign...

I've always thought CBs should be signed first because they need more time to adapt and work on defensive strategies with the coaching staff.. The longer we delay signings (if any are coming in) the worse off we are...

[tubby]

He's been past it for a while now, but has still been one of our best defenders. That's as much a compliment to him as it a point to illustrate how poor we have been at the back since the days of Hyypia and Henchoz. Kelly looks promising, Flanno too... but we need to bring in someone who can command the back now. A solid defense is key to mounting a rise to the top of the table and currently we look too suspect at the back.

Despite being past his best though he still has a part to play in the side, probably for the next 2 years or so id say.

[Scottbot]

I've been a huge fan of Hangeland for a while now and its a shame hes not mentioned .. Not sure how good Dann, Cahill and Shawcross are but they seem to be better defensively than Agger and Skrtel which is a step in the right direction... In an ideal world we'd be looking at a top top class CB (Juan, Chiellini, Hangeland..) but we'll take whatever we can get at this point...

We also need to work on our positioning in the middle of the park... With players like Adam and Henderson coming into the side, the coaches have alot of work to do in the next few days to prepare the side for the start of the league campaign...

I've always thought CBs should be signed first because they need more time to adapt and work on defensive strategies with the coaching staff.. The longer we delay signings (if any are coming in) the worse off we are...

Mate, I've been bangig on about Hangeland for as long as i can remember but I stopped beating that drum a few months ago when it became apparent that the new owners were keen to spend big on young players with potential sell-on value + avoiding giving big money contracts to older guys. I'd still take him in a flash though.

But given it likely needs to be a younger buck I'd be delighted if we went after Shawcross. It seems lke he's been in the league for years but he's only 23 and he's also Stoke's captain. I think he has all the qualities i've talked about as the ideal partner for Carra.

[crazyhorse]

Great thread opener. Nothing really to add to it, it is very well put.

Carra is not past it. He is capable of another season, maybe two. He is still the best we have in terms of guts and anticipation. Personally I believe Agger is the more gifted player.

Yes we need another CB. And I agree that this needs to be in the Sami mould.

[Scottbot]

You only have to look at our rivals to see the make-up of their centre-back pairings to see what we should be looking to replicate. The mancs have Vidic (strong as an oxe, physically imposing, great in the air) alongside your consumate ball player in Rio Ferdinand. And then they have got a very similar partnership waiting in the wings with big Phil Jones in the Vidic mould and Smalling alongside him. Then you look at Chelsea, for years they had John Terry (another Vidic) alongside Carvallo (their Ferdinand). Carvallho is gone now but they have replaced him with a similar player with Luiz coming in. Arsenal, much like us have not got the partnership right the past few years but funnily enough their last really good partnership was big Sol Campbell (another Vidic) alongside the quicker more mobile William Gallas. There is a definite pattern here and it's one we should be emulating but we won't go far with the 4 lads we have at the moment.

[killerp]

Carragher is what now, 33? He may have the experience & leadership but his body will not allow him to keep pace with the game & stay injury free. I would give him 1 more season as a starter then gradually bring in new players to replace him & use him in a backup role. Agger or Skrytel are not good enough to be his replacement, need a new signing/s.

Scott Dann or Gary Cahill should be the caliber of defenders we sign in the future (Or the remainder of this window   )

[Kenny Kan]

Good post Scott and I pretty much agree with what you have said re characteristics.

It's a shame really that Carragher's time (running out) and Martin Kelly's (youthful-lack of experience) time didn't overlap more, Carra being two years younger and Kelly where he is today. Had Kelly 'learned on the job', his trade with Carra, I reckon they could have produced a decent pairing together. Kelly looks like a big lad - a typical center half who could be winning those first balls you speak of. I agree, Carra isn't a 'first ball winner' he simply doesn't have the height to out jump and muscle someone like Drogba. Where as I think Kelly would go the tussle better, Skertel isn't bad either in these situations it's just a shame he 'switches off' during vital parts of play, or does something erratic. 

I'd honestly like to see Kelly bed in at Center back - although I think he would compliment Agger better than Carra. But relying on Agger is like relying on British rail - it's pointless and I wouldn't cry if we looked to offload the Dane. But I digress, I think Carra still has another year in him at top level and although it is 'risky' and by all accounts the young Kelly had a bit of a mare the other day, I'd still be inclined to offer him the place ahead of both Skertel and Agger. I don't think Kelly is as quite as quick as Skertel and we could be exposed for pace perhaps but we've seen especially with the Carra/Skertel combo in comparison to the Carra/Hyypia combo that Carragher's weaknesses are highlighted more when he's playing alongside Skertel. His game and defending is more exposed and Carra has more work and concentration to do alongside Skertel than he did Hyypia.

All in all, Carra come the season will still be our most reliable and consistent defender and I reckon Kelly should be thrown in alongside him.

[stmichael]

It's ironic that a lot of fans slag off Skrtel when the fact is he was far better than Carragher for the second half of last season. For what it's worth I still think Carra has 2 more seasons left in him but there's no way he should be an automatic first choice pick nowadays. He'll still excel in games when we have our backs against the wall (Chelsea away last season he was outstanding for example) but this doesn't detract from the fact that his legs have gone and he gets exposed by strikers with decent movement time and time again.

And as for comparing us to Chelsea and United don't be daft. At United, Ferdinand, Vidic, Smalling and Jones cost £63m between them. At Chelsea, Luiz cost £21m alone. We're never going to be splashing out that sort of money on a centre back alone. Hell City paid £40m for two average players in Lescott and Toure and now they've spunked another £20m on this Serbian guy. We're not in that ballpark.