Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

From the Guardian.

In his three years at Anfield, Rafael Benítez has recruited some truly rotten rubbish. But he's generally been quick to recognise and get rid of the flops, meaning his net expenditure is relatively low. Even this summer, when he's forked out a fortune in a bid to finally liberate Liverpool from 17 years of domestic strife, he's recouped nearly half of what he's spent, making his net outlay a tad over £20m, or roughly one Owen Hargreaves. If that stat means he should be spared accusations of spectacularly squandering money (wasting time may be another matter, however), shouldn't the relatively modest expenditure also mean it's unreasonable to expect Liverpool to really rival Chelsea and Manchester United?

Yes.

But then again...

The fact is Liverpool could win the Premiership this season. Their defence is undeniably formidable, two of Benítez's best signings (Pepe Reina and Daniel Agger) combining tightly with two of Gérard Houllier's best (Steven Finnan and John Arne Riise) and homegrown hero Jamie Carragher. This rigour at the rear is reflected throughout, at least in terms of mentality, which explains why last season Liverpool were the only team in the league not to incur a red card.

At home, that discipline is usually augmented not just by power and pace but, crucially, by a sense of purpose that enables them to overcome their impoverished imagination, profligate finishing and Benítez's wrong-headed rotation. That's why, despite the fact that Chelsea were unbeaten at Stamford Bridge and United amassed 47 home points to Liverpool's 46, it was Liverpool who were the most hostile hosts: they crushed almost everyone at Anfield, including Arsenal, Chelsea and United, who nevertheless fluked a victory, the only side to do so in the league.

Which brings us on to their big problem: away, their flaws came all too frequently into focus. On their travels they averaged less than a goal per game and mustered fewer victories than Bolton.

Fernando Torres could improve that record. His wonky shooting in pre-season notwithstanding, he seems to have the ingredients of a top finisher, meaning he could become the first Liverpool player in Benítez's reign to score more than 12 league goals in a season (just to make sure that statistic sounds as damning as it should, consider that an ancient Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, a novice Kevin Doyle and - wait for it - Marlon Harewood have all hit higher tallies in that time).

But poxy finishing was only part of the problem: too often Liverpool struggled to even create chances away from home. Javier Mascherano and Momo Sissoko are efficient destroyers, but neither has yet learned how to pass; away, Xabi Alonso tends to hide; and last season Jermaine Pennant was the only Liverpool player who could outwit defenders, but too often then confounded his forwards by crossing into the wilderness; even Steven Gerrard didn't storm many barns on the road. Yossi Benayoun, Andriy Voronin and Ryan Babel may inject more ingenuity - but even if they do, Liverpool will still have one big obstacle to overcome: Benítez's seemingly irresistible urge to tamper with his team.

Last season, the ludicrous line-ups began on the first day at Sheffield United, and led to early, very predictable 3-0 defeats at Everton (weeds like Luis Garcia and Fabio Aurelio for a rumble in the Merseyside jungle?!) and Arsenal (Bolo Zenden in central midfield!), after which their league campaign was over. As Jose Mourinho may have mentioned, their resignation to also-ran status in the Premiership was a major factor in their long European run - again.

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do. Two facts that add up to third place.

-Paul Dole, The Guardian.



Okay the article may of been a tad harsh, but I agree with the gist of sentiments in this piece of writing. I'd suspect most Liverpool fans would in fairness, maybe Paul Doyle was a bit harsh on a few of the players .... well only Torres really. I do think that article summed up our problems and we've been saying it on here for a while.

Yossi Benayoun, Andriy Voronin and Ryan Babel may inject more ingenuity - but even if they do, Liverpool will still have one big obstacle to overcome: Benítez's seemingly irresistible urge to tamper with his team.

Nail on head there, possibly this squad could run Chelsea and Man United real close this season. But I think the big hamper on us will be the manager himself more so than the players. If he starts to "tamper" with the team this year I'd definately be inclined to agree with this next quote......

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do. Two facts that add up to third place.

The " manager for manager " bit I'll agree with it if Rafa starts his heavy handed rotation routine. If he hasnt learnt from his mistakes from last season.

This is going to sound like a doom and gloom post to most, the article itself was very critical of Rafa. But I think its critisim warranted and I believe if Rafa changes a few of his own policies in tactics and rotations alike we could really mount a serious title challenge this year.

In saying that with the amount of players Rafa has brought in 'first teamers' and 'youth' players too. On the cards it appears Rafa will continue his rotation routine. IF it pays off I will happily eat humble pie, and run naked down my local beach and post the photos here. But like others here I dont think rotation to Rafa's extreme and even the pick of personell at times will win us the league and like Houllier stubborness could be Rafa's downfall.

[kunilson]

criticism is fine, as long as it aint over the top.

The rotation thing has been overdone, and even though i agree that too much rotation is not great especially in the early part of the season....rafa suffered the consequences of this for testing out his squad and thats it. he was labelled for life. remember the countdown to the first match we weren't gonna rotate? it became stupid. then it was open-season on rafa, and even reaching a European final AGAIN was not worthy of any real kind of recognition

I don't know what it is but the articles i have read post-Athens make out as if reaching the European final is no big deal because we "gave up" in the league. its true in a sense, but i think that rafa should have more recognition for doing something twice in 3 years what fergie has only done once in 20 odd years...and we only "gave up" in the league near the end, before that we were still giving it a go (i remember we were within 5 points of chelsea at some point near the end of the season).


Obviously id want to defend rafa, but he still has to learn from his mistakes to make sure his legacy here aint ruined like houllier's was.....it was only one bad season(league terms), so thats not to be forgotten either.

manager for manager we're definately inferior? off

[redtrader74]

The article point out that our spend each year has been the equivalent of one Hargreaves, and yet our sqaud may only possibly be inferior to that of Chelsea and Manu??.......how then is Rafa, who has built the squad, inferior to the other two?. Ok he has rotated teams and played players on occassion out of position, but why?? well we may never know, i think that its because his sqaud has not been as strong as he'd like and has had to pick players with different qualities for different games, because we lacked enough top players. For example, (i didn't agree) but when SG was played on the left Rafa must have believed that he would give us more than the LM we had available. Its either that or he just rotates for the sake of it!

The main failing the article points out is our away form and not breaking teams down, with Torres, Babel and Voronin i can see that changing, Rafa saw what he was lacking and went out and bought pace power and hopefully clinical finishing. Therefore if we maintain our home form and improve away, then we will be close, very close.

Of the three of them who would i want, still Rafa, one took 7-8 years to win the title with the biggest budget at the time, at an easier time, the other won the title with the biggest budget in the history of football.

[bigmick]

Sure he's over-rotated and if he does it again this season we will definately have no possible chance of winning the league or even mounting a realistic challenge. Also it's fair to say that in my opinion if he goes at it like he did at the start of last season then it may be time to consider our options.

He won't though. He's a good manager who has bought very well,  is very tactically astute and is not an idiot. Everyone makes mistakes but only idiots don't learn from them and my money is on Rafa settling on a largely settled line-up this season. If there's no serious injuries and the team finds some kind of rhythm early on then my suspicion is that it will only be up top where there will be regular shuffles. We won't be seeing the five and six changes per game which we occasionally saw last season, nor the 99 games of consecutive changes in personel. This season it'll be the very strongest line-up more often than not, and if a striker is in the form of his life I reckon he will play every game.

The big indicators of course will come in the opening games of the season. If we see a line up which contains at least ten out of the following eleven, Reina, Finnan, Agger, Carragher, Riise, Pennant, Gerrard, Alonso, Benayoun?, Kuyt and Torres in the first three games, then we know that it's game on and we are going for the title. If we don't and we aren't then my fear is that we'll be out of it before we know it.

All that said, the article is very unfair on rafa who musical selection policies aside, has done a wonderful job.

[Sabre]

But poxy finishing was only part of the problem: too often Liverpool struggled to even create chances away from home. Javier Mascherano and Momo Sissoko are efficient destroyers, but neither has yet learned how to pass; away, Xabi Alonso tends to hide; and last season Jermaine Pennant was the only Liverpool player who could outwit defenders, but too often then confounded his forwards by crossing into the wilderness; even Steven Gerrard didn't storm many barns on the road. Yossi Benayoun, Andriy Voronin and Ryan Babel may inject more ingenuity - but even if they do, Liverpool will still have one big obstacle to overcome: Benítez's seemingly irresistible urge to tamper with his team.

This must be the biggest heap of cráp I've read in all the pre-season. So Mascherano doesn't know to pass? Alonso Hides? Steven Gerrard didn't burn many barns in the road? and explains the fact we don't have a single red card in the back four ONLY?

Do me a favour.

As for rotation, the other day a mate here put some numbers about how many games got Crouch and our strikers compared to Drogba, Rooney, and the likes, and Crouchy didn't have more than 5 or 6 games less than the other top strikers. So do the other teams also rotate? I don't follow closely the other teams but the numbers indicate that so it seems. No doubt that Rafa had to rotate a lot at the start of the season (and he probably had a good reason to) and that he weakened the team in the latter stage of the league when he focused on the CL, but I'm sure that with this deeper squad everything will work better. Including rotation.

In a nutshell there was some mistakes in the rotation policy, but highlighting it as one of the biggest mistakes to explain why we weren't close to win the title is something I disagree. I think that Kunilson says it, it's overdone.

[66-1112520797]

He won't though. He's a good manager who has bought very well,  is very tactically astute and is not an idiot. Everyone makes mistakes but only idiots don't learn from them and my money is on Rafa settling on a largely settled line-up this season.

I for one wouldnt be to sure about that (I maybe wrong), I think their his methods (rotatating). If I remember rightly he did rotate the season before and didnt learn at the begining of last season did he. Remember Burnley F.A cup the year before ?

Like or not I think rotation his here with Rafa, he's brought in more quality to rotate with IMO. I dont know there just my feelings, but he's tried that two seasons running and didnt learn as last seasons opening fixtures proved.

I dont think the article is that far off TBH, yes it comes accross as critical but fairly so IMO.

Fernando Torres could improve that record. His wonky shooting in pre-season notwithstanding, he seems to have the ingredients of a top finisher, meaning he could become the first Liverpool player in Benítez's reign to score more than 12 league goals in a season (just to make sure that statistic sounds as damning as it should, consider that an ancient Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, a novice Kevin Doyle and - wait for it - Marlon Harewood have all hit higher tallies in that time).

This paragraph for example is either critical of Rafa or Kuyt, but whoever I think its fair to say when taking on board that " the first Liverpool player in Benítez's reign to score more than 12 league goals in a season".
how is that unfair ? Its a stone cold fact, when players like Kevin Doyle or Marlon Harewood equal or better our TOP goalscorer then IMO the critics are fair.

Like I said I think the article picks on Rafa's negatives in his management, but the majority is true IMHO, if people deny this or just slag it as bollox than I'll bet my bottom dollar there the same people who prolong the excuses each and every year.

Rafa has done a good job so far, but you cant resy on lurals here we'll never improve with that attitude and I hope Rafa himself doesnt conjour up the lame old excuses some people give him on this board. I'd hope he looks to better himself aswell as the team, because IMO we're not that far off, a few things need tweeking and like I said earlier IMO its the boss's methods himself that need tweeking mostly.

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do. Two facts that add up to third place

Again, I'll be sure that if Rafa does go ahead with his 'tampering' of the team this season, and we blow out of the title race before November, I'll hunch that a few supporters around here will agree with that statement. I myself will agree with that statement if this happens, I hope Rafa wont make the same mistake again in the over rotating his players, lesson learned ?... God I hope so ... its possibly the icing on the cake.

[whylongball?]

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do

the last sentence is simply .
Rafa did make mistakes and needs to rectify that but as a coach he's way above ferguson and mourinho
The rest of the article is generally accurate to be honest

[Bad Bob]

(weeds like Luis Garcia and Fabio Aurelio for a rumble in the Merseyside jungle?!)

This remark in a nutshell is why this article is, by and large, rubbish.  Go and have a look at Garcia's scoring record against the bitters and then tell me you wouldn't have played him at Goodison as well.

Look, Happy Clappy I may be, but I can handle fair and balanced criticism written by people who know Liverpool Football Club.  This guy clearly doesn't pay that much attention to us and that makes it hard to take him seriously.  Frankly, Bamaga mate, you write better stuff than this...why not get yourself a column in the Guardian and spare us this kind of lazy, half-baked punditry?   

[66-1112520797]

Thing is though, its seems its only critical articles that are . If say I posted any one of Paul Tompkins optimistic articles, that really are not always realistic but more Red tinted. Most people would be saying 'great article that'.

That article is a tad harsh, but its not that far wide of the mark IMO.

[Bad Bob]

Thing is though, its seems its only critical articles that are . If say I posted any one of Paul Tompkins optimistic articles, that really are not always realistic but more Red tinted. Most people would be saying 'great article that'.

That article is a tad harsh, but its not that far wide of the mark IMO.

Well at least Tompkins gets his facts right.  You might not agree with his interpretation but there's no question he knows the team inside and out.  These pundits for major (southern) papers dabble in writing about teams like Liverpool and fall back on the easiest cliches to make their (usually dismissive) points: Rafa rotates too much, zonal marking is a joke, Spanish players are too lightweight for derby matches, Rafa only cares about the Champions League, blah, blah, blah.  My point is that there's less substance to this article than you'd find in most posts on this board and at least (most) posters on this board pay careful attention to Liverpool Football Club week in, week out.  Find me a "doom and gloomer" who spends as much time watching and analyzing Liverpool as Tompkins does and then we can talk about which vision is more realistic.

[tubby]

I agree with a few of the points here but not when they say he is inferior to the other managers. When results come off he is laballed a genius and now he could be inferior? The same inferior manager to dictated how Liverpool tactically outplayed Milan in the final (albeit lost on a fortuitous goal) and yet Fergusons side were ouplayed at both home and away even though they won the home leg.

In that sense i could say this article is a load of tosh.

[66-1112520797]

Find me a "doom and gloomer" who spends as much time watching and analyzing Liverpool as Tompkins does and then we can talk about which vision is more realistic

Me and Peewee or Lakes come to think of it.  

[66-1112520797]

I agree with a few of the points here but not when they say he is inferior to the other managers. When results come off he is laballed a genius and now he could be inferior? The same inferior manager to dictated how Liverpool tactically outplayed Milan in the final (albeit lost on a fortuitous goal) and yet Fergusons side were ouplayed at both home and away even though they won the home leg

Your talking European football, Fergies Man United have just won the league have they not. I couldnt give a f.uck about Europe at the minute and clearly this article is about the our domestic form, people should stop bring our European form into discussion as a satisfactory excuse to fall back on every f.uckin time.

[tubby]

In that case then its not like we havent made strides in the league as well. Was it not season before last season that we racked more points than Chelsea after the 1st month.

The improvment is there but we just lacked a bit of depth and consistensy last year. Im sure the rotation didnt help but we can only hope Rafa has learnt from those mistakes.

[Bad Bob]

Find me a "doom and gloomer" who spends as much time watching and analyzing Liverpool as Tompkins does and then we can talk about which vision is more realistic

Me and Peewee or Lakes come to think of it.  

Lakes is a bit of a convert these days, though, isn't he?  I think he's even been given an "In Rafa We Trust" badge and everything by us Happy Clappers! 

So, it's you and Peewee and Stu, then!