Liverpool FC Forum

[maypaxvobiscum]

From the Guardian.

In his three years at Anfield, Rafael Benítez has recruited some truly rotten rubbish. But he's generally been quick to recognise and get rid of the flops, meaning his net expenditure is relatively low. Even this summer, when he's forked out a fortune in a bid to finally liberate Liverpool from 17 years of domestic strife, he's recouped nearly half of what he's spent, making his net outlay a tad over £20m, or roughly one Owen Hargreaves. If that stat means he should be spared accusations of spectacularly squandering money (wasting time may be another matter, however), shouldn't the relatively modest expenditure also mean it's unreasonable to expect Liverpool to really rival Chelsea and Manchester United?

this article has maybe one or two fair points. but the journalist is a joke. he uses terms like ''weed'', ''rotten rubbish'' though he as a massive point when he says manure fluked a victory at anfield.

he also contradicts himself in the first paragraph by saying liverpool has spent a fortune and then goes on to say relatively modest expenditure 

perhaps the only thing i agree with is less rotation. but we dont need a striker on fire. we need the team on fire. what happens if that striker is injured? we need goals coming from all positions. not just a striker.

[hello_red]

Jesus Fracking Christ the league has not even started yet and most people are in a panic!!!! Calm the frack down!  If we dont score more than 15 against Feyernord then its game over for Liverpool, atleast thats what its seems like!!!!!!!

[ConnO'var]

Find me a "doom and gloomer" who spends as much time watching and analyzing Liverpool as Tompkins does and then we can talk about which vision is more realistic

Me and Peewee or Lakes come to think of it.  

Lakes is a bit of a convert these days, though, isn't he?  I think he's even been given an "In Rafa We Trust" badge and everything by us Happy Clappers! 

So, it's you and Peewee and Stu, then!

and me.

[scoby]

I'm beginning to think that Rafa's idea of the evolution of the attacking style and shape of the team might be rather less concerned with width than many fans are.

He's spent approximately £20m on a class striker who thrives on balls into feet, or spinning onto little through balls and one-twos around the area. The two supposed 'wide' signings are actually one player who is better suited to playing behind the striker(s) and another who thinks he is a striker. While Benayoun can play from a wide position, he's clearly going to cut inside and look to thread clever little balls rather than get to the byline and throw crosses in. Babel doesn't immediately look to have the off-the-ball movement of a top striker, he could be best picking the ball up centrally and running at defenders rather than out wide. Kuyt is somewhere between the two of them, and Voronin also looks well suited to clever link up play.

From what I've seen from Torres so far, he seems to have a 'weakness' - or at least an area of his game less noticeably strong than others. He doesn't attack crosses. His movement when receiving the ball to feet, or getting onto the end of a clever pass, is excellent. When the ball is out wide and about to be crossed, he seems unsure of his position and remains static, rather than positively gambling and attacking the ball. Last week against Portsmouth, Pennant cut inside a lot, looking to play (and succeeding several times) delicate through balls. Kewell, even if fit, is not going to be the speedy silky winger of his Leeds' youth, but still has the brains and ability to attack the corner of the box rather than get to the byline.

I think we might be better built for a variety of attacking options, with the wingers and crosses no longer our primary method of attack, but just another option. Perhaps against a side with weaker fullbacks, we'll focus a little more on the flanks. Against a side with less mobility in the centre, we may focus on patient possession, one-twos and the guile of someone like Benayoun. It could explain the lack of expenditure on a big-name winger many fans expected/hoped for; it could also explain the strength in depth in central midfield areas. Using Gerrard/Aurelio/Riise in the wide positions would fit the system better with less change in style from game to game, as the midfield can play narrower (much narrower on occasion, if needed) and focuses more frequently on the area around the edge of the box rather than down the sides of it.

[Lando_Griffin]

From the Guardian.

In his three years at Anfield, Rafael Benítez has recruited some truly rotten rubbish. But he's generally been quick to recognise and get rid of the flops, meaning his net expenditure is relatively low. Even this summer, when he's forked out a fortune in a bid to finally liberate Liverpool from 17 years of domestic strife, he's recouped nearly half of what he's spent, making his net outlay a tad over £20m, or roughly one Owen Hargreaves. If that stat means he should be spared accusations of spectacularly squandering money (wasting time may be another matter, however), shouldn't the relatively modest expenditure also mean it's unreasonable to expect Liverpool to really rival Chelsea and Manchester United?

Yes.

But then again...

The fact is Liverpool could win the Premiership this season. Their defence is undeniably formidable, two of Benítez's best signings (Pepe Reina and Daniel Agger) combining tightly with two of Gérard Houllier's best (Steven Finnan and John Arne Riise) and homegrown hero Jamie Carragher. This rigour at the rear is reflected throughout, at least in terms of mentality, which explains why last season Liverpool were the only team in the league not to incur a red card.

At home, that discipline is usually augmented not just by power and pace but, crucially, by a sense of purpose that enables them to overcome their impoverished imagination, profligate finishing and Benítez's wrong-headed rotation. That's why, despite the fact that Chelsea were unbeaten at Stamford Bridge and United amassed 47 home points to Liverpool's 46, it was Liverpool who were the most hostile hosts: they crushed almost everyone at Anfield, including Arsenal, Chelsea and United, who nevertheless fluked a victory, the only side to do so in the league.

Which brings us on to their big problem: away, their flaws came all too frequently into focus. On their travels they averaged less than a goal per game and mustered fewer victories than Bolton.

Fernando Torres could improve that record. His wonky shooting in pre-season notwithstanding, he seems to have the ingredients of a top finisher, meaning he could become the first Liverpool player in Benítez's reign to score more than 12 league goals in a season (just to make sure that statistic sounds as damning as it should, consider that an ancient Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink, a novice Kevin Doyle and - wait for it - Marlon Harewood have all hit higher tallies in that time).

But poxy finishing was only part of the problem: too often Liverpool struggled to even create chances away from home. Javier Mascherano and Momo Sissoko are efficient destroyers, but neither has yet learned how to pass; away, Xabi Alonso tends to hide; and last season Jermaine Pennant was the only Liverpool player who could outwit defenders, but too often then confounded his forwards by crossing into the wilderness; even Steven Gerrard didn't storm many barns on the road. Yossi Benayoun, Andriy Voronin and Ryan Babel may inject more ingenuity - but even if they do, Liverpool will still have one big obstacle to overcome: Benítez's seemingly irresistible urge to tamper with his team.

Last season, the ludicrous line-ups began on the first day at Sheffield United, and led to early, very predictable 3-0 defeats at Everton (weeds like Luis Garcia and Fabio Aurelio for a rumble in the Merseyside jungle?!) and Arsenal (Bolo Zenden in central midfield!), after which their league campaign was over. As Jose Mourinho may have mentioned, their resignation to also-ran status in the Premiership was a major factor in their long European run - again.

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do. Two facts that add up to third place.

-Paul Dole, The Guardian.



Okay the article may of been a tad harsh, but I agree with the gist of sentiments in this piece of writing. I'd suspect most Liverpool fans would in fairness, maybe Paul Doyle was a bit harsh on a few of the players .... well only Torres really. I do think that article summed up our problems and we've been saying it on here for a while.

Yossi Benayoun, Andriy Voronin and Ryan Babel may inject more ingenuity - but even if they do, Liverpool will still have one big obstacle to overcome: Benítez's seemingly irresistible urge to tamper with his team.

Nail on head there, possibly this squad could run Chelsea and Man United real close this season. But I think the big hamper on us will be the manager himself more so than the players. If he starts to "tamper" with the team this year I'd definately be inclined to agree with this next quote......

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do. Two facts that add up to third place.

The " manager for manager " bit I'll agree with it if Rafa starts his heavy handed rotation routine. If he hasnt learnt from his mistakes from last season.

This is going to sound like a doom and gloom post to most, the article itself was very critical of Rafa. But I think its critisim warranted and I believe if Rafa changes a few of his own policies in tactics and rotations alike we could really mount a serious title challenge this year.

In saying that with the amount of players Rafa has brought in 'first teamers' and 'youth' players too. On the cards it appears Rafa will continue his rotation routine. IF it pays off I will happily eat humble pie, and run naked down my local beach and post the photos here. But like others here I dont think rotation to Rafa's extreme and even the pick of personell at times will win us the league and like Houllier stubborness could be Rafa's downfall.

Paul Dole? The c*nt should be ON the dole.

How long did it take Whiskey nose to win anything?

I can do with these clueless bellends when they actually give valid points, rather than just take an air-headed jibe at someone for the sake of it.

Moris had unrivalled money to spend, and Rafa STILL outwits him.

3rd best manager? Kiss my a*se, Dole, you f*cking waster.

"The Guardian" - Manchester's favourite paper, written by a bunch of c*ck-sucking cockney knobheads.

[kunilson]

I'm beginning to think that Rafa's idea of the evolution of the attacking style and shape of the team might be rather less concerned with width than many fans are.

He's spent approximately £20m on a class striker who thrives on balls into feet, or spinning onto little through balls and one-twos around the area. The two supposed 'wide' signings are actually one player who is better suited to playing behind the striker(s) and another who thinks he is a striker. While Benayoun can play from a wide position, he's clearly going to cut inside and look to thread clever little balls rather than get to the byline and throw crosses in. Babel doesn't immediately look to have the off-the-ball movement of a top striker, he could be best picking the ball up centrally and running at defenders rather than out wide. Kuyt is somewhere between the two of them, and Voronin also looks well suited to clever link up play.

From what I've seen from Torres so far, he seems to have a 'weakness' - or at least an area of his game less noticeably strong than others. He doesn't attack crosses. His movement when receiving the ball to feet, or getting onto the end of a clever pass, is excellent. When the ball is out wide and about to be crossed, he seems unsure of his position and remains static, rather than positively gambling and attacking the ball. Last week against Portsmouth, Pennant cut inside a lot, looking to play (and succeeding several times) delicate through balls. Kewell, even if fit, is not going to be the speedy silky winger of his Leeds' youth, but still has the brains and ability to attack the corner of the box rather than get to the byline.

I think we might be better built for a variety of attacking options, with the wingers and crosses no longer our primary method of attack, but just another option. Perhaps against a side with weaker fullbacks, we'll focus a little more on the flanks. Against a side with less mobility in the centre, we may focus on patient possession, one-twos and the guile of someone like Benayoun. It could explain the lack of expenditure on a big-name winger many fans expected/hoped for; it could also explain the strength in depth in central midfield areas. Using Gerrard/Aurelio/Riise in the wide positions would fit the system better with less change in style from game to game, as the midfield can play narrower (much narrower on occasion, if needed) and focuses more frequently on the area around the edge of the box rather than down the sides of it.

thought i read this before...

RAWK

at least credit the source    unless it was you....

[the_red_alonso]

[stmichael]

The fact about that article is that there are probably some valid points that have been raised about us as a team challenging for the title...but this is Paul Doyle, who - if you've ever read him in the Guardian previously or heard him on their podcasts - obviously has some agenda against Liverpool; whether that's the football team or the city as a whole, that can be debated either way.

So let someone like Henry Winter make the same points in a more constructive way, and - even though I might not agree with them - I'll willingly accept a well written and reasonably argued article about Liverpool's deficiencies than some rant from that tit from the Guardian. Doyle is incapable of such intellectual writings.

[heimdall]

Find me a "doom and gloomer" who spends as much time watching and analyzing Liverpool as Tompkins does and then we can talk about which vision is more realistic

Me and Peewee or Lakes come to think of it.  

Lakes is a bit of a convert these days, though, isn't he?  I think he's even been given an "In Rafa We Trust" badge and everything by us Happy Clappers! 

So, it's you and Peewee and Stu, then!

Hey don't forget about me, I can be plenty negative and gloomy 

[Bad Bob]

Find me a "doom and gloomer" who spends as much time watching and analyzing Liverpool as Tompkins does and then we can talk about which vision is more realistic

Me and Peewee or Lakes come to think of it.

Lakes is a bit of a convert these days, though, isn't he?  I think he's even been given an "In Rafa We Trust" badge and everything by us Happy Clappers! 

So, it's you and Peewee and Stu, then!

Hey don't forget about me, I can be plenty negative and gloomy 

Oh yes, you've made the list too!   

[Well Red]

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do.

For a man who is paid to write intellectual football analysis columns in a top English newspaper, that unjustified line is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. In what way is José Mourinho a better manager than Rafa?

Because he's won the league twice thanks to two seasons worth of blank cheques from Ambramovic and the ability to try and sign whosoever he chooses?

Because he won the Portuguese league twice with Porto? Which is clearly better than winning La Liga twice with Valencia..?

Because he values mind games with players, the press and other managers as much more fundamental to being a success than tactics?

Because he would  have won the Champions League in Istanbul had it not been for Garcia's "Ghost Goal" against Chelsea? Or for the "lottery" of penalties against the Reds this time round?

Paul Doyle, I will never bother to read one of your articles again. 

[puroresu]

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do.

For a man who is paid to write intellectual football analysis columns in a top English newspaper, that unjustified line is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. In what way is José Mourinho a better manager than Rafa?

Because he's won the league twice thanks to two seasons worth of blank cheques from Ambramovic and the ability to try and sign whosoever he chooses?

Because he won the Portuguese league twice with Porto? Which is clearly better than winning La Liga twice with Valencia..?

Because he values mind games with players, the press and other managers as much more fundamental to being a success than tactics?

Because he would  have won the Champions League in Istanbul had it not been for Garcia's "Ghost Goal" against Chelsea? Or for the "lottery" of penalties against the Reds this time round?

Paul Doyle, I will never bother to read one of your articles again. 

Why did u miss out his European cup win with porto.  Anyone who plays down that achievement is crazy.

[Well Red]

Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do.

For a man who is paid to write intellectual football analysis columns in a top English newspaper, that unjustified line is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. In what way is José Mourinho a better manager than Rafa?

Because he's won the league twice thanks to two seasons worth of blank cheques from Ambramovic and the ability to try and sign whosoever he chooses?

Because he won the Portuguese league twice with Porto? Which is clearly better than winning La Liga twice with Valencia..?

Because he values mind games with players, the press and other managers as much more fundamental to being a success than tactics?

Because he would  have won the Champions League in Istanbul had it not been for Garcia's "Ghost Goal" against Chelsea? Or for the "lottery" of penalties against the Reds this time round?

Paul Doyle, I will never bother to read one of your articles again. 

Why did u miss out his European cup win with porto.  Anyone who plays down that achievement is crazy.

its a good achievement, but that is a stand alone achievment in a career that really reflects little on how great a manager he is. Is Didier Deschamps lauded as the best manager in the world? No. Would he be if his AS Monaco side had defeated Porto in that final? I expect not. Mourinho is not CLEARLY better than Benitez, there is nothing more to add to that.

[username]

"Javier Mascherano and Momo Sissoko are efficient destroyers, but neither has yet learned how to pass."
"Man for man, Liverpool possibly remain inferior to United and Chelsea. Manager for manager, they definitely do"

when could mascherano not pass? hmm, must be pretty bad to play for

man for man? gerrard, mascherano, alonso (season before last), carra, agger, finnan (unsung hero) and renia all meet or beat any play on either team.
the only thing i would say either team have on us is wingers and one striker. if babel pulls his cost and pennant plays like the end of last season, and torres being our missing striker, then we can easily contend. manger for manger... bull .

however, it does make valid points, even if they are over negative, but like the article, i think ill put what i bad about it, not whats good

[The Manhattan Project]

He's right about the fact that when playing legbreakers like Everscum, we lack that steel that we need. Flair and style isn't going to get it done against teams like that. Sometimes we are also a little too cautious and settle for a draw when we need to be pressing for the win. At home, we destroy everyone. Away we are wet blankets.